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If I were Catholic

redrobin

Well-known member
I'd stick with Christianity and leave Catholicism.



In comments likely to enhance his progressive reputation, Pope Francis has written a long, open letter to the founder of La Repubblica newspaper, Eugenio Scalfari, stating that non-believers would be forgiven by God if they followed their consciences.

Responding to a list of questions published in the paper by Mr Scalfari, who is not a Roman Catholic, Francis wrote: “You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.

“Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience.”

Robert Mickens, the Vatican correspondent for the Catholic journal The Tablet, said the pontiff’s comments were further evidence of his attempts to shake off the Catholic Church’s fusty image, reinforced by his extremely conservative predecessor Benedict XVI. “Francis is a still a conservative,” said Mr Mickens. “But what this is all about is him seeking to have a more meaningful dialogue with the world.”

In a welcoming response to the letter, Mr Scalfari said the Pope’s comments were “further evidence of his ability and desire to overcome barriers in dialogue with all”.

In July, Francis signalled a more progressive attitude on sexuality, asking: “If someone is gay and is looking for the Lord, who am I to judge him?”
 

Martin Jr.

Well-known member
Don't read more into these statements than what they say. There is really no change in church teaching in this.

First of all it has always been taught that anyone who does not have the advantage to know Jesus Christ but lives his life sincerely and honestly can be saved without knowing Christ. This however does not mean that they can be saved without Jesus Christ, for anyone, even those who do not know Christ, but live a good life are saved through Jesus Christ.

As for those who suffer from same sex attraction, if they live their lives with chastity, (or at least make a sincere effort to avoid these same sex sins, and repent of them) they too can be saved.
If their only fault is their proclivity to these kind of sins, then who are we to judge them?
But if they openly sin and promote these kind of sins, then that is a different story.
 

redrobin

Well-known member
Sin isn't violating YOUR concience Martin. Sin is disobeying Gods law.

If you believe that you can enter heaven without knowing Jesus you are a heretic and so is your pope.

If those that don't know Christ go to heaven, why would you ever send a missionary to some tribe to tell them about Jesus. Their ignorance might be their ticket to heaven according to you and the pope.
 

kolanuraven

Well-known member
redrobin said:
If you believe that you can enter heaven without knowing Jesus you are a heretic and so is your pope.

.



Now, now...RR....your halo is tipping to the side here!!!


Who are you to call ANYONE a heretic?



Are you in charge of religion and what and who people believe ?
 

Faster horses

Well-known member
I'm not judging anyone's faith or trying to change the way others were taught. But I agree with RR. God says in the Bible, the only way to heaven is "but by me". That's what I have been taught. It's fundamentalist Christian teaching. We are all sinners, all flawed people. Through remorse and repentance you can be forgiven.

If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything.
 

Martin Jr.

Well-known member
Just your conscience alone is not enough, it must be an informed conscience, formed at least by natural law. Or by the best means available to him.

Now if there is a Buddist in China who lives a good life by the way he has been taught, and does not Know Jesus, I will not condemn him to Hell, let God make that decision. I believe that Jesus is more merciful than I would be.

However, that said, the merits of Jesus are the means that the Buddist, or anyone else can get to Heaven. I do think that the graces given through Christianity are of a great advantage to those who are open to belief in Jesus.
 

littlejoe

Well-known member
Martin Jr. said:
Just your conscience alone is not enough, it must be an informed conscience, formed at least by natural law. Or by the best means available to him.

Now if there is a Buddist in China who lives a good life by the way he has been taught, and does not Know Jesus, I will not condemn him to Hell, let God make that decision. I believe that Jesus is more merciful than I would be.

However, that said, the merits of Jesus are the means that the Buddist, or anyone else can get to Heaven. I do think that the graces given through Christianity are of a great advantage to those who are open to belief in Jesus.

I do think that you and the rest of your ilk are thoroughly full of horseshit.
 

Steve

Well-known member
Now if there is a Buddist in China who lives a good life by the way he has been taught, and does not Know Jesus

not so sure GOD would like the way they disparage him...

The commonly accepted definition of the term "God" describes a being that not only rules but actually created the universe (see origin belief). Such ideas and concepts are disputed by Buddha and Buddhists in many Buddhist discourses.

In Buddhism, the supreme origin and creator of the universe is not a god, but Avidya (ignorance).

While I disagree with the Pope's opinion,.. I am also not the one who will judge the worlds' people.. that judgement is left to GOD..
 

Martin Jr.

Well-known member
Missionaries are sent out because Jesus said to do so.

Mark 16: 15 - 17
"Go into the whole world and preach the good news to all creation. The man who believes in it and accepts baptism will be saved; the man who refuses to believe it will be condemned."

Jesus made no mention of those who did not hear the good news.

Consider also Romans 10: 14 - 15
"But how shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe unless they have heard of him? And how can they hear unless there is someone to preach? And how can men preach unless they are sent? Scriptures says, "How beautiful are the feet of those who announce good news!"
 

Triangle Bar

Well-known member
I'm not catholic but I think the Pope needs to be more precise in his writings. There is a big difference between non-believers and those who have never heard the gospel. In my mind non-believers are the ones who have heard the gospel but rejected Christ and will be justly judged accordingly.

The people who have never heard of the law are judged by the law of God which He has placed into their hearts:

"For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus." (Romans 2:14-16)
 

redrobin

Well-known member
Martin Jr. said:
Missionaries are sent out because Jesus said to do so.

Mark 16: 15 - 17
"Go into the whole world and preach the good news to all creation. The man who believes in it and accepts baptism will be saved; the man who refuses to believe it will be condemned."

Jesus made no mention of those who did not hear the good news.

Consider also Romans 10: 14 - 15
"But how shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe unless they have heard of him? And how can they hear unless there is someone to preach? And how can men preach unless they are sent? Scriptures says, "How beautiful are the feet of those who announce good news!"
Your argument is against the clear teaching of scripture. If those that havn't heard the gospel are going to heaven and those that don't believe in God are going to heaven, why would Jesus have to die on the cross?
 

smalltime

Well-known member
He didn't have to die on the cross.The reason he did is because the religious and political leaders of the time wanted it that way.
 

Triangle Bar

Well-known member
smalltime said:
He didn't have to die on the cross.The reason he did is because the religious and political leaders of the time wanted it that way.

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” Revelation 1:8

Smalltime, our God is omnipotent. He is all seeing and all knowing. He sent his Son to this earth knowing full well the jealousy, pettiness and thirst for power of the mortal men of this world. The Christ was given as the supreme sacrifice, not to condemn but to save the world through him.

John chapter 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.
 

Juan

Well-known member
Most of you are right in some ways-But-If you know Jesus better than Pope Francis you would be Pope or soon will be!
 

kolanuraven

Well-known member
littlejoe said:
Martin Jr. said:
Just your conscience alone is not enough, it must be an informed conscience, formed at least by natural law. Or by the best means available to him.

Now if there is a Buddist in China who lives a good life by the way he has been taught, and does not Know Jesus, I will not condemn him to Hell, let God make that decision. I believe that Jesus is more merciful than I would be.

However, that said, the merits of Jesus are the means that the Buddist, or anyone else can get to Heaven. I do think that the graces given through Christianity are of a great advantage to those who are open to belief in Jesus.

I do think that you and the rest of your ilk are thoroughly full of horseshit.



...and we have another one of those santimonious, holier than thou christians rise to comment!!
 

Mike

Well-known member
kolanuraven said:
littlejoe said:
Martin Jr. said:
Just your conscience alone is not enough, it must be an informed conscience, formed at least by natural law. Or by the best means available to him.

Now if there is a Buddist in China who lives a good life by the way he has been taught, and does not Know Jesus, I will not condemn him to Hell, let God make that decision. I believe that Jesus is more merciful than I would be.

However, that said, the merits of Jesus are the means that the Buddist, or anyone else can get to Heaven. I do think that the graces given through Christianity are of a great advantage to those who are open to belief in Jesus.

I do think that you and the rest of your ilk are thoroughly full of horseshit.



...and we have another one of those santimonious, holier than thou christians rise to comment!!

Glad to see you finally use words with more than three letters. Except you left out the "C" in sanctimonious. Jus' sayin'. :wink:

And yes, I was delegated to be the resident spell checker. 8)
 

Faster horses

Well-known member
I do not understand why this thread was moved to the Political part of this forum!

After quite a bit of research, this is what I came up with.
Hope it helps!


What about those who have never heard about Jesus Christ?


Often people ask the question, “What about the person who has never heard of Jesus Christ?” This is one instance that God has not fully revealed His plan, because there are certain things that are know to God alone (Deuteronomy 29:29) However, God’s Word does offer some very clear principles to help us understand His attitude toward those who have never heard about Him.


1. The Bible tells us that God is just. Whatever He does with those who have never heard of Jesus Christ will be fair.


2. No one will be condemned for rejecting Jesus Christ if he has never heard of Him. However, he will be condemned for violating his own moral standard, no matter high or low it has been. Romans 2 clearly tells us that every person has a standard of some kind, and that in every culture, people knowingly violate the standard they have (Romans 2:12-16).


3. The book of Romans also explains that every person has enough information from the evidence of creation to know that God exists (Romans 1:20, “So that they are without excuse”). This idea is confirmed in Psalm 19. However, in Matthew 7:7-11 and Jeremiah 29:13 God goes on to say that if anyone responds to the light he has and seeks God, God will give him a chance to hear the truth about Jesus Christ.


4. There is nowhere in the Bible that the Scriptures indicate that a person can be saved apart from Jesus Christ (John 14:6). We, who call ourselves Christians, must see to it that those who have not heard will hear the Gospel.


It is reasonable to believe that a God whose love is so great that He would give His own Son is even more concerned about people than we could ever be (2 Peter 3:9) He desires that all people come into a personal relationship with Him.(1 Timothy 2:4) The Bible teaches that all individuals have some knowledge of God, and that He has put the consciousness of eternity in every person’s mind.(Romans 1:19,20) Therefore, each person is accountable for his or her response to this inward information.


If a person truly desires to know God, God will provide the information needed to know Him. This was true, for example, with Cornelius, the Roman centurion who sincerely desired to know God. The book of Acts in the New Testament recalls how Peter was sent to tell him how he could receive salvation. (Acts 10:17-35)


Many ask, “How can a loving God send someone to hell?” With equal fairness, the better question that should be asked is, “How can a holy and righteous God allow a sinful person into heaven?” Ultimately, the issue becomes the following: each individual must deal with the fact that they have their own choice of where they want to go.


God by nature is holy and just. If He dealt with us only in love, a love without standards, we would think Him weak and unworthy or our respect. He, in fact, would not be truly God. If, on the other hand, He dealt with us only in His holiness and justice, we would all be sent to hell, because His nature is incompatible with sin. By Christ’s [God the Son’s] death on the cross for our sin, God fully satisfied the requirements of His moral character, while at the same time providing the way by which an individual could come into a personal relationship with Him.


What is your decision regarding Christ’s offer to forgive your sins, enter your life, begin a personal relationship with you, and begin changing your thoughts, attitudes, actions, desires, and habits?


In addition, once your have received His forgiveness for all of your sins, what will you do personally to tell others who have not heard about Jesus? He asked us to be His witnesses, “… in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and even to the remotest parts of the earth.”(Act. 1:8). Will you become part of the positive answer to the question?
 

Silver

Well-known member
The way I figure it, if God doesn't let good folks in that lived good and just lives regardless of their 'beliefs' I don't want any part of what He's offering.
 

smalltime

Well-known member
You can call yourself any name you want to and yell jesus as loud as you can but if you don't obey the the law,the ten commandments,your just pissin into the wind.
 

Larrry

Well-known member
smalltime said:
You can call yourself any name you want to and yell jesus as loud as you can but if you don't obey the the law,the ten commandments,your just pissin into the wind.

You gotta admit if anyone knows about pissin in the wind I'll bet you do
Have a nice day

;)
 
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