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Input Budgeting for Cow/Calf Operation

mytfarms

Well-known member
For those of you that run a substantial number of mother cows, what percent of your calf check do you generally budget for inputs? Given my summer internship, I am looking to lease my first tract of personal ground by this fall. Although I may not start with a cow/calf operation, I would like to gain an idea of the general cost of the calf crop that inputs in terms of hay, fence, etc. will take.

Also, how many of you utilize electric fence on your outfit? I am looking to learn a lot more about that this summer as it relates to stocker calves, but I'm curious if it also applies as a useful fence for cows and calves on a bigger outfit.
 

eatbeef

Well-known member
All of it. :lol: Just have to sit down and figure daily costs for each segment(pasture, stalks, feeding) of the year and go from there. I always figure in custom rate labor, that I am sure I budget enough to have some left over, but usually doesnt happen because there is always improvements and repairs that use up any extra.

I use one wire electric fence on stalks from October until March every year. I have about 12 miles out right now. Invest in a good wire winder. I just use 3/8" rebar for posts, i see no need for spades on a temporary post, maybe need a few for low spots to hold in ground. I used Tposts for all corners, but starting to see alot of fiberglass posts for corners. Would sure be timely and elimnate wire and insulator. I also us one wire electric inside of my fences on calving pastures to prevent reaching thru for green grass in spring. For my pastures that are cross fenced have gotten by just fine with 2 wire hot wire.
 

RSL

Well-known member
I use a good software package that can start a budget using last years figures. That is pretty helpful. We don't work on a percentage so much as we do on an actual $ amount. I shoot to have a breakeven of $450 per cow. That covers all costs and interest payments. Remainder is a return to equity and unpaid labour. We also run a "best/worst" case scenario. For economics (not cash budgetting) we require a return to equity and labour and work backwards.

As for electric fence, we have found it is one of the most useful tools for increasing production, even in extensive grazing situations, and we rely on it heavily year around. It has allowed us to drop our wintering yardage costs to pennies per day, and resulted in more than 3 times the production and improved drought management in the summer (FWIW).
 

bllcattle

Well-known member
Liveing here in east Mont,it's pretty hard to answer your question as to "percentage of calf check" At least in our operation we try to figure in our true cost's of production and then try really hard to make those calves pay the way. As to what it cost's us to run a cow here of ccoarse does vary as to moisture,lenght of winter, some luck, etc. Can almost guarentee that most anywhere here is in the $550--$650 bracket to run a coww per year. When times get real rough and tuff , l0ok at more money and thats when the cow bix looks like you should be running sheep,milkling cows raising chickens or joining the rest of Americans on welfare. Or as I have done a few times in my life, look at my wife and say---- A heckava good place to raise 5 kid's and the 11 grandkids are getting their education in the colledge of H.K's.
 

RSL

Well-known member
eatbeef said:
I shoot to have a breakeven of $450 per cow

What??? Are you kidding? Is your grass free?
No but I target winter feeding less than 45 days per year during which time we don't run a tractor, and we work our rental agreements on $/Acre rather than cow days and really work to achieve optimal grass production.
That $450 does not include our principal payments (it does include interest). We don't always hit that target but we range right around it most years in our Cow/calf enterprise.
 

Bar M

Well-known member
Yup i will agree with Rsl. That it does take $450 to break even, here in my country I try to figure a bit higher I am at 550 dollars to keep the mama but thatis year round mineral figure if you are going to be using corn stalks at any point in the year. And always always figure your time is worth something also........and dont figure SO much a guy can go broke that way also.
 

eatbeef

Well-known member
Guess i ought to pack up, idiots around here mainly corn farmers with cows giving 300 to 400 a pair for summer. You guys want to make a couple hundred a pair? Because i will come rent your place from you if you can really keep a cow for $450.

Dont include your principal payments? Wouldnt that be a costs that needs figured in? If all you have for your operations is cows and you total expenses are X and you have Y cows your costs per cow would be X divided by Y, not leaving anything out.
 

RSL

Well-known member
eatbeef said:
Guess i ought to pack up, idiots around here mainly corn farmers with cows giving 300 to 400 a pair for summer. You guys want to make a couple hundred a pair? Because i will come rent your place from you if you can really keep a cow for $450.

Dont include your principal payments? Wouldnt that be a costs that needs figured in? If all you have for your operations is cows and you total expenses are X and you have Y cows your costs per cow would be X divided by Y, not leaving anything out.

Our loans are set up so we are only required to make interest payments. We always pay down principal, but this setup was a risk management strategy that we employed post-BSE. Our returns after expenses are used to pay down principal. If farmers are paying $400 for a 200 day grazing season, I may sell my cows and rent out my pastures. We have arranged some rental deals where we pay the same as the person used to get on a cow day basis, but converted it to $ per acre. As we managed more carefully we have tripled and in some cases quadrupled production. That drops a former $1.00 to $0.80 per cow day down to $0.25 to $0.35 and the owner is happy as they are getting paid the same and their land is improving. Our summer grazing costs average between $0.35 and $0.45 per day depending on the pasture unit and our wintering costs are about the same on prairie and swath grazing until we go onto our bale grazing for the last 45 to 60 days where we run right around $0.75. These costs include labour/fuel. We produce all of our hay on shares, so our land costs and production costs are fairly low. Don't own $40K worth of farm machinery so we keep depreciation and other costs to a minimum and have a low debt load, no cow loans. This low debt load probably makes for a large part of an unfair comparison and we generally have to budget more for bulls than for our principal + interest payment. For us calving late and having a longer grazing season means we also burn very little diesel and don't require many inputs. The mini truck keeps our gas costs in check. If we were paying over $1 per day in the summer I think we would quit having cows. We could probably be more productive, but we always try to make sure it is not at the expense of being profitable.
 

eatbeef

Well-known member
Thats awesome that your landlord is that great to deal with, good ones are getting few and far between, they see the dollar signs but after a few years realize that there grass is ruined. Then still want top dollar for overgrazed crap pasture.

No lie on the pasture rates either, most are 5 months to 6 months grazing periods. It wont last forever because when the corn farmers go back to breakeven on their farmground they wont need to have cows for a write off.

If ya dont mind me asking how did you get a bank to set you up with interest only payments?
 

3words

Well-known member
eatbeef said:
Guess i ought to pack up, idiots around here mainly corn farmers with cows giving 300 to 400 a pair for summer. You guys want to make a couple hundred a pair? Because i will come rent your place from you if you can really keep a cow for $450.

Dont include your principal payments? Wouldnt that be a costs that needs figured in? If all you have for your operations is cows and you total expenses are X and you have Y cows your costs per cow would be X divided by Y, not leaving anything out.

How can you guys afford to pay that for summer pasture?My supervised pasture for 6 months for a pair is $125.
 

RSL

Well-known member
eatbeef said:
Thats awesome that your landlord is that great to deal with, good ones are getting few and far between, they see the dollar signs but after a few years realize that there grass is ruined. Then still want top dollar for overgrazed crap pasture.

No lie on the pasture rates either, most are 5 months to 6 months grazing periods. It wont last forever because when the corn farmers go back to breakeven on their farmground they wont need to have cows for a write off.

If ya dont mind me asking how did you get a bank to set you up with interest only payments?
In Canada FCC and others have a pretty good variety of programs.
FCC has a "cash flow optimizer" loan that allows interest only. They also offer a Young Farmers loan for folks under 40 that is prime + 1/2. You are required to make your first full payment on that one, but are allowed to skip the principal payment for one year, provided they have adequate warning. These are pretty valuable risk management tools. For example, in the event of an extreme drought you could use cash to purchase feed, rather than require all of it to make your principle payment and then borrowing short term for your feed.
Ag seems pretty sexy right now, so lenders are falling over themselves. We will see how they behave once the shine wears off :lol: .
 

Hayguy

Well-known member
eatbeef said:
All of it. :lol: Just have to sit down and figure daily costs for each segment(pasture, stalks, feeding) of the year and go from there. I always figure in custom rate labor, that I am sure I budget enough to have some left over, but usually doesnt happen because there is always improvements and repairs that use up any extra.

I use one wire electric fence on stalks from October until March every year. I have about 12 miles out right now. Invest in a good wire winder. I just use 3/8" rebar for posts, i see no need for spades on a temporary post, maybe need a few for low spots to hold in ground. I used Tposts for all corners, but starting to see alot of fiberglass posts for corners. Would sure be timely and elimnate wire and insulator. I also us one wire electric inside of my fences on calving pastures to prevent reaching thru for green grass in spring. For my pastures that are cross fenced have gotten by just fine with 2 wire hot wire.




on your t-post corners do you build a brace out of t-posts and bracket or just use the 1 t-post? what wire are you using? what type of corner insulator do you use? do-nut style wired to the t-post or bolt on type?
 

Jake

Well-known member
3words said:
eatbeef said:
Guess i ought to pack up, idiots around here mainly corn farmers with cows giving 300 to 400 a pair for summer. You guys want to make a couple hundred a pair? Because i will come rent your place from you if you can really keep a cow for $450.

Dont include your principal payments? Wouldnt that be a costs that needs figured in? If all you have for your operations is cows and you total expenses are X and you have Y cows your costs per cow would be X divided by Y, not leaving anything out.

How can you guys afford to pay that for summer pasture?My supervised pasture for 6 months for a pair is $125.

The answer is that you can't afford it. I'm about an hour north of eatbeef but have friends in that area and that say the same thing as far as rates. But for every person paying 350 or more for pasture there is somebody paying $100.
 

3 M L & C

Well-known member
hayguy said:
eatbeef said:
All of it. :lol: Just have to sit down and figure daily costs for each segment(pasture, stalks, feeding) of the year and go from there. I always figure in custom rate labor, that I am sure I budget enough to have some left over, but usually doesnt happen because there is always improvements and repairs that use up any extra.

I use one wire electric fence on stalks from October until March every year. I have about 12 miles out right now. Invest in a good wire winder. I just use 3/8" rebar for posts, i see no need for spades on a temporary post, maybe need a few for low spots to hold in ground. I used Tposts for all corners, but starting to see alot of fiberglass posts for corners. Would sure be timely and elimnate wire and insulator. I also us one wire electric inside of my fences on calving pastures to prevent reaching thru for green grass in spring. For my pastures that are cross fenced have gotten by just fine with 2 wire hot wire.

Well I'm not eatbeef but I can tell you what I do. I usually put in a 5 inch wood post in the corners so you can stretch the wire a little tighter. A lot of people just put in a t post at an angle or put a t post in then a "dead man" behind it. I just use smooth red brand wire I can't remember I think its 12 ga though. We use those round porcelen insulators that look like a donut on the corners. Then on the rebar post we use the style you put over the post then it has a nut you tighten up. They are plastic. The black ones that adjust for different size post work the best. They cost a bit more but those yellow ones aren't worth a dang and the threads strip real easy on them.




on your t-post corners do you build a brace out of t-posts and bracket or just use the 1 t-post? what wire are you using? what type of corner insulator do you use? do-nut style wired to the t-post or bolt on type?
 

burnt

Well-known member
hayguy said:
eatbeef said:
All of it. :lol: Just have to sit down and figure daily costs for each segment(pasture, stalks, feeding) of the year and go from there. I always figure in custom rate labor, that I am sure I budget enough to have some left over, but usually doesnt happen because there is always improvements and repairs that use up any extra.

I use one wire electric fence on stalks from October until March every year. I have about 12 miles out right now. Invest in a good wire winder. I just use 3/8" rebar for posts, i see no need for spades on a temporary post, maybe need a few for low spots to hold in ground. I used Tposts for all corners, but starting to see alot of fiberglass posts for corners. Would sure be timely and elimnate wire and insulator. I also us one wire electric inside of my fences on calving pastures to prevent reaching thru for green grass in spring. For my pastures that are cross fenced have gotten by just fine with 2 wire hot wire.




on your t-post corners do you build a brace out of t-posts and bracket or just use the 1 t-post? what wire are you using? what type of corner insulator do you use? do-nut style wired to the t-post or bolt on type?


Being a bit on the cheap side, I started using a short piece of scrap plastic or rubber pipe that I slide over the t post and pulling the wire over it around the corner seems to hold it in place.

Just put some up today - hi-tensile pulled around the post as described above and tie the top of the t post back to a short stake driven in back about 8 - 10 feet from the corner t. Then pull the hi-tensile tight and its solid. I had a piece of 2" suction hose that got squashed but would still fit over a t post - works nicely.
 

Big Muddy rancher

Well-known member
burnt said:
hayguy said:
eatbeef said:
All of it. :lol: Just have to sit down and figure daily costs for each segment(pasture, stalks, feeding) of the year and go from there. I always figure in custom rate labor, that I am sure I budget enough to have some left over, but usually doesnt happen because there is always improvements and repairs that use up any extra.

I use one wire electric fence on stalks from October until March every year. I have about 12 miles out right now. Invest in a good wire winder. I just use 3/8" rebar for posts, i see no need for spades on a temporary post, maybe need a few for low spots to hold in ground. I used Tposts for all corners, but starting to see alot of fiberglass posts for corners. Would sure be timely and elimnate wire and insulator. I also us one wire electric inside of my fences on calving pastures to prevent reaching thru for green grass in spring. For my pastures that are cross fenced have gotten by just fine with 2 wire hot wire.




on your t-post corners do you build a brace out of t-posts and bracket or just use the 1 t-post? what wire are you using? what type of corner insulator do you use? do-nut style wired to the t-post or bolt on type?


Being a bit on the cheap side, I started using a short piece of scrap plastic or rubber pipe that I slide over the t post and pulling the wire over it around the corner seems to hold it in place.

Just put some up today - hi-tensile pulled around the post as described above and tie the top of the t post back to a short stake driven in back about 8 - 10 feet from the corner t. Then pull the hi-tensile tight and its solid. I had a piece of 2" suction hose that got squashed but would still fit over a t post - works nicely.



Being a bit on the cheap side :nod: :nod: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :wink: :cowboy:
 

burnt

Well-known member
Big Muddy rancher said:
burnt said:
hayguy said:
on your t-post corners do you build a brace out of t-posts and bracket or just use the 1 t-post? what wire are you using? what type of corner insulator do you use? do-nut style wired to the t-post or bolt on type?


Being a bit on the cheap side, I started using a short piece of scrap plastic or rubber pipe that I slide over the t post and pulling the wire over it around the corner seems to hold it in place.

Just put some up today - hi-tensile pulled around the post as described above and tie the top of the t post back to a short stake driven in back about 8 - 10 feet from the corner t. Then pull the hi-tensile tight and its solid. I had a piece of 2" suction hose that got squashed but would still fit over a t post - works nicely.



Being a bit on the cheap side :nod: :nod: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :wink: :cowboy:

Ya I know. It's not the insulators, it's that bit of wire it takes to fasten it to the post. :wink:

They say necessity is the mother of invention and one time I ran out of insulators ... :roll: :nod: :tiphat:
 
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