• If you are having problems logging in please use the Contact Us in the lower right hand corner of the forum page for assistance.

Instrument grading and ultrasound

Help Support Ranchers.net:

GLA

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2005
Messages
99
Reaction score
0
Location
Stratford, Texas
Red Robin,

Hate to disappoint you but the vision camera has been in use in the Excel plants for nearly two years now. Excel and Cargill have completely changed how they do their own company business because of what the vision cam is doing for them in the plant. Whether or not you believe the vision cam is accurate, makes no difference, because Excel is using it and if you sell to those plants, your cattle will be evaluated by the camera. Use of the camera will only get larger as more plants adopt it's use........right or wrong, that's the cold hard facts of life.

Now about ultrasound. Sounds to me like you may be a believer in the Designer Genes program. Fine, but there is another system out there that has run over a million cattle or more thru it's system and is in constant use in the all the Cargill Feedyards. It is NOT the ECM system. All cattle are scanned and sorted for optimum outdates. They are constantly doing more than 2 to 3 cattle a minute.

The person here who said they scanned cattle going to PM Beef plants was probably using one of our licensed technicians to scan and sort his cattle.

The real important fact to visualize in all these discussion is the ability to compare ultrasound data with vision camera results.......thereby having the ability to fine tune sorting parameters as they compare to vision camera grading numbers. It's coming and should be here sooner than you think.

I don't think a 2 minute per animal ultrasounding is acceptable in today's fast paced feedyards. Our system is calibrated against packing house data on a daily basis.......not against some guru who thinks they know the business of evaluating carcasses better than govt graders or a certified vision camera......and we do it alot faster than 2 a minute.

Really appreciate all the comments regarding this subject......I have acquired some valuable information.........

Thanks,

GLA
 

Red Robin

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 23, 2005
Messages
4,377
Reaction score
1
Location
8 mi S.E. of Harrison, Ar.
GLA said:
Red Robin,

Hate to disappoint you but the vision camera has been in use in the Excel plants for nearly two years now. Excel and Cargill have completely changed how they do their own company business because of what the vision cam is doing for them in the plant. Whether or not you believe the vision cam is accurate, makes no difference, because Excel is using it and if you sell to those plants, your cattle will be evaluated by the camera. Use of the camera will only get larger as more plants adopt it's use........right or wrong, that's the cold hard facts of life.
Easy GLA. I'm not in either business and could care less what system is used. I want one that can objectivly evaluate cattle correctly. If that camera of yours can do that. Get rid of the graders. I agree with you entirely, it makes no difference what I think or really what you think. What matters is that the technology that works best wins. I hope and assume over the long run that'll be the case. It certainly sounds from SW's experience alone that you certainly have some bugs to work out related to how hide strippers damage the carcass you are evaluating. I certainly don't have the knowledge to even comment on the whole process but you need a hanging beef you can fairly evaluate. I wish you the best and hope that soon mechanical evaluation of carcasses will be the norm. One thing that seems true to me in the carcass evaluation business , being able to accurately and repeatitively measure is the key.
 

GLA

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2005
Messages
99
Reaction score
0
Location
Stratford, Texas
Red Robin,

Ok, I'll take it easy. Guess I gave the wrong impression of the vision camera.....I'm not in that business.....it's just the results of the vision cam is going to be forced down our throat by the feeders who will be graded by that technology...........I'm in the feedlot ultrasound business!!

Really we are excited about the aspects of using the vision cam data against our predictions from the ultrasound........it could really help our predictions! The better we predict the more money the feeder can make........by having less discounts!!

Thanks,

GLA
 

sw

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2005
Messages
1,373
Reaction score
0
GLA,
As I tried maybe not successful is to point out that computers and cameras and ultrasound are way more accurate and less subjective than people, that is why I want automation, not some grader who is pissed at eh world for what ever reason grading my cattle. As with my post about the B-mat cattle, that is purely a call by a grader who can be as hard as he wants or as easy as he wants, it is too subjective. I have been fighting for about 8 years with our 4-h program here becasue people who don't want to understand the technology try to tell me that they can measure a ribeye with their eye and a block card and be more accurate than a scan. My hinney. I do have to give you and RR kudos, we are actually having a discussion in BS and nobody is calling anybody names. I might come in here more often.
 

GLA

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2005
Messages
99
Reaction score
0
Location
Stratford, Texas
Well thank you SW, I appreciate that compliment. I'm sure Red Robin does also. And yes, I sure am glad that we can discuss something like this and not loose our cool.......we are all in the same business or would like to be.....and we need all the help we can get.

Just for your info, I am in the feedlot ultrasound business and our technology is scanning cattle everyday in feedyards from 2000 head to 125,000 head, so I have a little insight on what works in the feedyard and what the packer needs.

In response to your 4-H problem, that is universal. Just for your info, this will be our second year to ultrasound all the steers at the Jr. Commercial Steer contest at the Houston Livestock Show & Rodeo. We have worked on this for over 5 years before they finally decided that we knew what we were talking about.

We will ultrasound 264 steers from all parts of Texas, just before they enter the sales ring. Should be doing about 2 a minute. We will capture weight, backfat measurement, marbling score and muscle depth(an indicator of ribeye size) plus ear tag number and breed type and give to the student to present to the live evaluators in the ring. At that point the live evaluators will give the animal a quality and yield grade, for sale purposes. I have no clue if they will use our ultrasound data to make that call. I hope they do, but that is up to them.

Two days later we will present all the data to the students with pictures of their animals live and then their ultrasound image.....should be fun. I can tell you this, some of the parents won't believe anything we tell them. But it's for the kids and they appreciate the effort and the information. I'm not real sure about anyone else.

Probably gave you more than you wanted to know. Come see us sometime and we'll scan a few and show you how it works..........it's still magic to me!!!

Thanks,

GLA
 

Beefman

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 27, 2005
Messages
252
Reaction score
0
sw said:
GLA,
As I tried maybe not successful is to point out that computers and cameras and ultrasound are way more accurate and less subjective than people, that is why I want automation, not some grader who is p****d at eh world for what ever reason grading my cattle. As with my post about the B-mat cattle, that is purely a call by a grader who can be as hard as he wants or as easy as he wants, it is too subjective. I have been fighting for about 8 years with our 4-h program here becasue people who don't want to understand the technology try to tell me that they can measure a ribeye with their eye and a block card and be more accurate than a scan. My hinney. I do have to give you and RR kudos, we are actually having a discussion in BS and nobody is calling anybody names. I might come in here more often.

You might've already answered your own question. In a previous post, you mention young cattle with a high % B Mat's (hardbones) showing up in the plant. You also mentioned tracing several of the B Mats to a certain sire.

Recalling back (lots of years) to meats judging, hardbones are easy determinations to make at the plant. Ossification along the chine bones, and rib bones taking a flat, opaque appearance are an easy indicator of hardbones. Doesn't make sense in a 16 month (or younger steer), and preciously what triggers hardbones in young animals is not well understood. There is a high heritability factor with accelerated maturity in certain sires. If those cattle you're sending to Swift have the same sires, don't be surprised if the same results repeat themselves. Before you chew Tim S out too hard, ask him about this.

Also, don't lay this problem at the feet of a USDA grader you think might've had a bad day. Yes, quality/yield grading is a human system, with human error. However, I don't think it'd be possible for one single person to error seriously enough for you to have a high % bmats if they did not exist.
 

GLA

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2005
Messages
99
Reaction score
0
Location
Stratford, Texas
Beefman,

Sounds like you are on track with the B maturity's. One thing I learned at a beef marketing meeting this last week was estrogen levels have alot to do with maturity in a beef carcass. According to the research, when a heifer was spaded her ability to produce estrogen stopped. Therefore, her ability to produce a hardbone carcass went way down.

The lecturer also said when a bull is cut early, then he quits producing not only testosterone, but a small amount of estrogen, therefore reducing his chances of making hardbones.

If I understood right, estrogen levels determine alot about maturity in a carcass, especially in heifers. Therefore, I guess a heifer with large levels of estrogen could make a hardbone at an early age......guess it could happen.

GLA
 

Red Robin

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 23, 2005
Messages
4,377
Reaction score
1
Location
8 mi S.E. of Harrison, Ar.
GLA said:
we are all in the same business or would like to be
GLA
GLA , I am nothing more than a neighbor and friend of someone in the business.
GLA said:
muscle depth(an indicator of ribeye size)GLA
What is the correlation between muscle depth ( I assume you refer to ribeye muscle depth) and actual ribeye area?
 

Mike

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
28,480
Reaction score
0
Location
Montgomery, Al
Red Robin said:
GLA said:
we are all in the same business or would like to be
GLA
GLA , I am nothing more than a neighbor and friend of someone in the business.
GLA said:
muscle depth(an indicator of ribeye size)GLA
What is the correlation between muscle depth ( I assume you refer to ribeye muscle depth) and actual ribeye area?

RR, Here are the Algorithms for the calculation of shape and depth. :wink:
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I have been fighting for about 8 years with our 4-h program here becasue people who don't want to understand the technology try to tell me that they can measure a ribeye with their eye and a block card and be more accurate than a scan.

The measurement of a ribeye on a hanging carcass with the eye and a measuring graph is far more accurate than an ultrasound machine measuring a live animal pressed up against the side of squeeze chute or bouncing around. Most honest ultrasound technicians will tell you that themselves.

Hell I have had seedstock producers tell me they have taken ribeye measurements a month apart and seen the ribeye's shrink. LOL! What does that tell you??? That the ribeye shrunk? NOT HARDLY!

There is a lot of snake oil being sold out there. Want to test the accuracy of ultrasound? Test some 4H steers before they are slaughtered then watch the grader grade them with a grid when they're hanging.

Ultrasound is a good tool but it has limitations and it needs HONEST representation about it's limitations.


~SH~
 

mrj

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 21, 2005
Messages
4,530
Reaction score
1
Location
SD
GLA said:
Well thank you SW, I appreciate that compliment. I'm sure Red Robin does also. And yes, I sure am glad that we can discuss something like this and not loose our cool.......we are all in the same business or would like to be.....and we need all the help we can get.

Just for your info, I am in the feedlot ultrasound business and our technology is scanning cattle everyday in feedyards from 2000 head to 125,000 head, so I have a little insight on what works in the feedyard and what the packer needs.

In response to your 4-H problem, that is universal. Just for your info, this will be our second year to ultrasound all the steers at the Jr. Commercial Steer contest at the Houston Livestock Show & Rodeo. We have worked on this for over 5 years before they finally decided that we knew what we were talking about.

We will ultrasound 264 steers from all parts of Texas, just before they enter the sales ring. Should be doing about 2 a minute. We will capture weight, backfat measurement, marbling score and muscle depth(an indicator of ribeye size) plus ear tag number and breed type and give to the student to present to the live evaluators in the ring. At that point the live evaluators will give the animal a quality and yield grade, for sale purposes. I have no clue if they will use our ultrasound data to make that call. I hope they do, but that is up to them.

Two days later we will present all the data to the students with pictures of their animals live and then their ultrasound image.....should be fun. I can tell you this, some of the parents won't believe anything we tell them. But it's for the kids and they appreciate the effort and the information. I'm not real sure about anyone else.

Probably gave you more than you wanted to know. Come see us sometime and we'll scan a few and show you how it works..........it's still magic to me!!!

Thanks,

GLA


GLA, that sounds like an exciting prospect for those 4-H kids to learn a lot about technology AND their genetics and what they produce. Will the steers be slaughtered? It would be really interesting to have sort of blind study and compare the ultra-sound, human graders' and camera assisted grading of the carcasses, along with professional evaluation of the differences if any. Will that happen? I believe such technologies can be very useful, but that they may still have a little way to go before being "fool-proof".....if such a status even exists in this world!!!

MRJ
 

Red Robin

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 23, 2005
Messages
4,377
Reaction score
1
Location
8 mi S.E. of Harrison, Ar.
Here is an interesting link MRJ from the cup lab. It's lengthy so I will only post a link. I am sure they carry a bias but it's still informative.
http://www.cuplab.com/location.cfm?fuseaction=dspThisArticle&newsId=25
 

Latest posts

Top