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Just the Facts---National Debt

Econ101

Well-known member
Here is a good graph on the National Debt. I haven't read the article and really don't care about the political slant in it if there is one. Put your own view on it if you want. I am interested in "just the facts".

http://www.cedarcomm.com/~stevelm1/usdebt.htm

Oh, Brad, lets just keep with the "facts" not name calling. That can come later.
 

BBJ

Well-known member
If your not interrested in the political slant then why post a graph that lists
:shock:

"An Analysis of the Presidents Who Are Responsible For Excessive Spending"????? :?

I also have to add that your "graph" is slanted to start with :eek: it lists the wars by name until it gets to the "GULF WAR", which it refers to as the 1ST OIL WAR and then continues to the 2ND OIL WAR???? :???: You and I both know neither war was an OIL WAR. If this one is then why in the he** am I paying so much for diesel?


If you want just the facts and less politicall spin then may I suggest you find information thats not biased. Which will be hard because everyone has an opinion and it usually ends up being favored in whatever they produce.
 

Econ101

Well-known member
BBJ said:
If your not interrested in the political slant then why post a graph that lists
:shock:

"An Analysis of the Presidents Who Are Responsible For Excessive Spending"????? :?

I also have to add that your "graph" is slanted to start with :eek: it lists the wars by name until it gets to the "GULF WAR", which it refers to as the 1ST OIL WAR and then continues to the 2ND OIL WAR???? :???: You and I both know neither war was an OIL WAR. If this one is then why in the he** am I paying so much for diesel?


If you want just the facts and less politicall spin then may I suggest you find information thats not biased. Which will be hard because everyone has an opinion and it usually ends up being favored in whatever they produce.

Read the graphs, BBJ. Take the "spin" as you call it, out. If you have some time periods you would like to consider in the graph, such as post 9/11, then do it.

If you want to go find a "less slanted" graph, then go find it.

You are paying more for diesel now because we haven't had a successful energy policy and or we are running out of "cheap oil". A good book for you to read is "THE PRIZE". It is about the oil industry. If you aren't interested in history or facts, you might not want to check it out. It is a long read.
 

RoperAB

Well-known member
A big portion of your dept is owed to yourselves <Social Security fund>.
The simplist way I can put it is like this. You can spend American money anywhere in the world. Try doing this with other currencies. Even under Saddams rule the central bank of Iraq kept huge American currency reserves. Look at how high your dollar is on international markets.

If any of you want to get rid of your greenbacks I will trade you Canadian dollars at par :lol:
 

RoperAB

Well-known member
Econ I agree with you on high fuel prices. This is the biggest threat to both your economy and ours. We cant sustain these high prices. This amounts to economic war fare and your under attack. If the States goes down we will to.
 

Econ101

Well-known member
RoperAB said:
A big portion of your dept is owed to yourselves <Social Security fund>.
The simplist way I can put it is like this. You can spend American money anywhere in the world. Try doing this with other currencies. Even under Saddams rule the central bank of Iraq kept huge American currency reserves. Look at how high your dollar is on international markets.

If any of you want to get rid of your greenbacks I will trade you Canadian dollars at par :lol:

That payment to ourselves in SS is shortly to start to become due. It is really only small part of the national debt, however. Here is a link to some of that information:

http://www.urban.org/publications/310231.html
 

BBJ

Well-known member
Econ101 said:
BBJ said:
If your not interrested in the political slant then why post a graph that lists
:shock:

"An Analysis of the Presidents Who Are Responsible For Excessive Spending"????? :?

I also have to add that your "graph" is slanted to start with :eek: it lists the wars by name until it gets to the "GULF WAR", which it refers to as the 1ST OIL WAR and then continues to the 2ND OIL WAR???? :???: You and I both know neither war was an OIL WAR. If this one is then why in the he** am I paying so much for diesel?


If you want just the facts and less politicall spin then may I suggest you find information thats not biased. Which will be hard because everyone has an opinion and it usually ends up being favored in whatever they produce.

Read the graphs, BBJ. Take the "spin" as you call it, out. If you have some time periods you would like to consider in the graph, such as post 9/11, then do it.

If you want to go find a "less slanted" graph, then go find it.

You are paying more for diesel now because we haven't had a successful energy policy and or we are running out of "cheap oil". A good book for you to read is "THE PRIZE". It is about the oil industry. If you aren't interested in history or facts, you might not want to check it out. It is a long read.

It's not my post to find a better graph to talk about... oh & you can't just take the spin out of it. :wink:
 

RoperAB

Well-known member
Econ101 said:
RoperAB said:
A big portion of your dept is owed to yourselves <Social Security fund>.
The simplist way I can put it is like this. You can spend American money anywhere in the world. Try doing this with other currencies. Even under Saddams rule the central bank of Iraq kept huge American currency reserves. Look at how high your dollar is on international markets.

If any of you want to get rid of your greenbacks I will trade you Canadian dollars at par :lol:

That payment to ourselves in SS is shortly to start to become due. It is really only small part of the national debt, however. Here is a link to some of that information:

http://www.urban.org/publications/310231.html

Just raise the age of entitlement for SS.
 

Econ101

Well-known member
RoperAB said:
Econ101 said:
RoperAB said:
A big portion of your dept is owed to yourselves <Social Security fund>.
The simplist way I can put it is like this. You can spend American money anywhere in the world. Try doing this with other currencies. Even under Saddams rule the central bank of Iraq kept huge American currency reserves. Look at how high your dollar is on international markets.

If any of you want to get rid of your greenbacks I will trade you Canadian dollars at par :lol:

That payment to ourselves in SS is shortly to start to become due. It is really only small part of the national debt, however. Here is a link to some of that information:

http://www.urban.org/publications/310231.html

Just raise the age of entitlement for SS.


.....and screw everyone out of their SS?

Currently the surplus SS is being used to finance the deficit in part and artificially subsidize interest rates. Why should people who pay SS taxes subsidize the cost of capital for homebuyers and for large corporations who borrow money? Why is the SS cap at around 90 k instead of all the way up the income stream for everyone? Why is SS tax not paid on investment income as well?

When cattlemen have to pay 15% tax on the money they make, why do these things? Should cattlemen pay a majority of taxes per capita to subsidize the rich?
 

RoperAB

Well-known member
At best SS is just a tax. Truth is its really a paramid sceme. If a corporation was set up like SS the board of directors would be thrown in jail.
Nobody was ever sapposed to live long enough to ever draw any amount of SS benifits.
I hope your not planning your retirement around SS?
Your government should really look into our RRSP semi- private system we have up here. It works.
Dont you guys have something called 401Ks?
 

Cowpuncher

Well-known member
Everyone looks at the national debt and raises the alarm.

But what about the untold trillions in assets the government has acquired incurring the debt. That side of the balance sheet is ignored.

Leave out the hundreds of billions of dollars spent on military equipment and just look at the real estate in Washington D. C.

Please don't tell your representatives about this - they would surely spend even more!!

Being the largest economy in the world and the lone superpower didn't come free.

And neither did your freedom.
 

Disagreeable

Well-known member
RoperAB said:
At best SS is just a tax. Truth is its really a paramid sceme. If a corporation was set up like SS the board of directors would be thrown in jail.
Nobody was ever sapposed to live long enough to ever draw any amount of SS benifits.
I hope your not planning your retirement around SS?
Your government should really look into our RRSP semi- private system we have up here. It works.
Dont you guys have something called 401Ks?

401Ks are tied to a job. The employee invests money and the company matches some percentage of his investment. But we have annuities and Individual Retirement Accounts (IRAs). Money put into IRAs is tax free and taxes on gains are deferred until it's taken out. We got into those as soon as they were available and have done very well with them. You can invest them almost anywhere. By the time you are retired and start drawing the money out, your tax rate should be lower.
 

Disagreeable

Well-known member
Cowpuncher said:
Everyone looks at the national debt and raises the alarm.

But what about the untold trillions in assets the government has acquired incurring the debt. That side of the balance sheet is ignored.

Leave out the hundreds of billions of dollars spent on military equipment and just look at the real estate in Washington D. C.

Please don't tell your representatives about this - they would surely spend even more!!

Being the largest economy in the world and the lone superpower didn't come free.

And neither did your freedom.

Sure, let's talk about thousands of HumVs that are setting, waiting for repair. For tanks that don't work and waiting for repair. And lost equipment. That's a lot of the billions of dollars spent on military equipment. And our soldiers are still short of equipment. They went to Iraq short and the Bush Bunch has done virtually nothing to get them caught up. Disgusting.
 

Econ101

Well-known member
Cowpuncher said:
Everyone looks at the national debt and raises the alarm.

But what about the untold trillions in assets the government has acquired incurring the debt. That side of the balance sheet is ignored.

Leave out the hundreds of billions of dollars spent on military equipment and just look at the real estate in Washington D. C.

Please don't tell your representatives about this - they would surely spend even more!!

Being the largest economy in the world and the lone superpower didn't come free.

And neither did your freedom.

Cowpuncher, what are we going to do in a bind, sell them to other countries for the cash?

Heck, if we could sell them to other countries, and then rent them back from them we could really untie some capital. :lol:
 

Cowpuncher

Well-known member
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cowpuncher wrote:
Everyone looks at the national debt and raises the alarm.

But what about the untold trillions in assets the government has acquired incurring the debt. That side of the balance sheet is ignored.

Leave out the hundreds of billions of dollars spent on military equipment and just look at the real estate in Washington D. C.

Please don't tell your representatives about this - they would surely spend even more!!

Being the largest economy in the world and the lone superpower didn't come free.

And neither did your freedom.

Econ101 wrote:
Cowpuncher, what are we going to do in a bind, sell them to other countries for the cash?

Heck, if we could sell them to other countries, and then rent them back from them we could really untie some capital.


CP
Just what kind of a bind are you talking about? We have done OK for 230 years through a lot of worse situations than we have now.
 

Econ101

Well-known member
We have an actuarial problem that is about to turn into an actual problem.

I do a little investing. There is always a disclaimer that "past results are not indicators of future results".
 

memanpa

Well-known member
Econ101 said:
We have an actuarial problem that is about to turn into an actual problem.

I do a little investing. There is always a disclaimer that "past results are not indicators of future results".

wow how astute is that!!!
if past results don't count can future result cout either??

i done a little investing as well. any thing i lost was only my fault!

anthing i made was also my fault!

to blame the economy for a loss to a given person is to say you were not well enough informed or willing to ride the trend!

what was your rate of return on investment for the last 5 yrs?
for the last 10 yrs?
hell for that matter last yr





to blame a person or party for the economy going away is like looking for a way OUT!
if the buck stops here live with it!
incidently i have not done bad using my method, listiing to the naysayers and the know it all's like econ i would still be working :D
 

Econ101

Well-known member
memanpa said:
Econ101 said:
We have an actuarial problem that is about to turn into an actual problem.

I do a little investing. There is always a disclaimer that "past results are not indicators of future results".

wow how astute is that!!!
if past results don't count can future result cout either??

i done a little investing as well. any thing i lost was only my fault!

anthing i made was also my fault!

to blame the economy for a loss nto a given person is to say you were not well enough informed or willing to ride the trend!

to blame a person or party for the economy going away is like looking for a way OUT!
if the buck stops here live with it!
incidently i have not done bad using my method, listiing to the naysayers and the know it all's like econ i would still be working :D

I would agree with you to an extent meman, the pres. has less to do with the economy than most people think. The indebtedness of the country is another thing. Larger govt. debt means the current politicians are spending more than they are taking in. This leads to higher real interest rates and has other implications.

I am glad you have "won" a little in your investing. I have too. While you mistake my being a "naysayer" for a higher goal, I don't begrudge you at all. There is no way out. It is only a little investing in the beginning that gives you a return in the end.

We should have been doing that "investing" in our country and we have not. We have just put more on the "credit card"---mine and your children's future enslavement to debt--- when we should not have.

If you have a comment about the graph, and understand it enough to make one, then do.

Until then, stop whining your political crap. It doesn't jive with the facts.
 

memanpa

Well-known member
oh ok econ!
i undestand the graph just fine:)
as far as my whinning as you call it there is no whining involved exept by those that want to whine! I/E you!
facts!~ those that live by the credit card will die by it!
fact
any debt is taken on by the consumer I/E YOU to blame any politcal party for your mistakes is rather dumb!


the fact i have made money from both sides of the fence has nothing to do with party lines!
it has to do with looking over my sholder and not looking for a party to blame!
if you think i am whining well then you are sadly mistaken!!!!
if you think my bank account doesn;t JIVE with facts wanna match me for the past 20 yrs ?
 

Econ101

Well-known member
memanpa said:
oh ok econ!
i undestand the graph just fine:)
as far as my whinning as you call it there is no whining involved exept by those that want to whine! I/E you!
facts!~ those that live by the credit card will die by it!
fact
any debt is taken on by the consumer I/E YOU to blame any politcal party for your mistakes is rather dumb!


the fact i have made money from both sides of the fence has nothing to do with party lines!
it has to do with looking over my sholder and not looking for a party to blame!
if you think i am whining well then you are sadly mistaken!!!!
if you think my bank account doesn;t JIVE with facts wanna match me for the past 20 yrs ?

While I applaud your personal diligence, the graph is not one about you. It is about the country and how well the country has been run through different administrations/time periods. The reference about credit cards is not about personal credit cards, it is about the government putting debt on future generations via the national debt through no fiscal discipline.

I could care less how you personally have or have not done.
 

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