Kit shows the way ahead

[Grassfarmer]

I found the following story from the Pharo newsletter interesting. It was an explanation of why he changed to calving the heifers with or later than the cows rather than a month earlier.

"We were calving in April at the time – starting around April 10th. We calve our heifers and cows at the same time – both out on open range. Because we provided almost no feed inputs, the heifers that calved at the beginning of the calving season were thin when they calved. They stayed thin all summer – and many failed to breed back with their second calf.
For whatever reason, I had one first-calf heifer that year that did not calve until late May. Because she had been on green grass for 30 days, she was fat and gaining weight when she calved. She stayed fat all summer. She weaned one of our biggest calves – and she was one of the first to calve the next year."

Maybe all the folks that suggest you should only keep heifers that calf in the first cycle have got it wrong? maybe the best ones calf late second or third cycle :shock: :roll:

 

[High Plains]

Read the newsletter, didn't drink the kool-aid.

Guess I'd prefer to choose the fertile heifers out of the front end that have performed appropriately on the nutritional program provided. I'll take the ones that choose to grow and hit maturity when I want them to and sell the poorer-doing fuzzballs to someone else.

This example depicts one heifer that calved the latest in her first trip and then she was one of the earliest to calve in the next year. Do you reckon this is a recipe for success? Is it a repeatable occurence if a person actually selected for it? Let's put our thinking caps on for a minute here... :wink:

HP

 

[Northern Rancher]

I don't think he does it from a fertility standpoint-I think it's more managing body condition for better conception. Cheyenne Wells isn't Rimbey Alberta!! I've seen the same thing in our deal here.

 

[High Plains]

Well, I can sure see that point. Still, I think we'll keep on trucking with the heifers ahead of the cows. Guess I'll be thrown in the mud as a "conventional" thinker. I can probably handle the pressure.

HP

 

[Northern Rancher]

If I calve ahead of the cows I'm calving in early April which is not good on my place-can get pretty muddy-wish i had a good sandy jackpine ridge. Both deals probably work according to your situation-I tend to expose almost all the heifers and let my left arm and the bull sort for fertility.

 

[Anonymous]

I enjoy reading Kits articles and ideas even tho I don't agree with all.. The same is true of Greg Goldens little articles in his yearly catalogs...Both give you some to think about and ruminate on...And they both definitely stir up discussion....

Aero put a php connection to Gregs articles on a post half way down this thread:
http://5barx.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=4389&start=40

Both have some good ideas/theories on making cows work for you- rather than you working for the cows....

 

[per]

Having also read the newsletter and been to a Dick Diven course my take is he was offering food for thought. Along the lines of calve in sync with nature. I don't see any reason to extend the calving period either before or after when the cows calve.

 

[rancherfred]

Well, I can sure see that point. Still, I think we'll keep on trucking with the heifers ahead of the cows. Guess I'll be thrown in the mud as a "conventional" thinker. I can probably handle the pressure.

HP

If you are calving heifers ahead of cows, you aren't selecting for fertility, you are managing your system in a manner that puts selection pressure against high fertility by allowing extra time for a younger cow to return to breeding shape. Having said that, I am not a big fan of Kit's nor am I defending his practices.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Maybe all the folks that suggest you should only keep heifers that calf in the first cycle have got it wrong? maybe the best ones calf late second or third cycle :shock: :roll:

Grassfarmer not sure I follow your point completely. As regards "all the folks that suggest" who are they? Are these researchers or extension agents or cattle breeders. I am not aware of any breeders who only keep the heifers that calve in the first cycle either by virtue of breeding for only one cycle or culling the later calving heifers. I do know some that only breed their heifers for 35 days. As far as our program the best ones identify themselves over time just because a heifer calves early for her first calf tells me virtually nothing about her future stayability. I have not been able to conclusively say that with our 48 day breeding that the early first calvers turn out any better than the late second cycle calvers over time as 4 year old plus. The later second cycle heifers seem to rebreed more consistently probably due to the photo period and BCS advantage that Kit observed. Our heifers are bred on the same schedule as our cows. Mind you we have been breeding on 48 days since 85 so our herd is stabilized and not much fall out anymore young or old. Interestingly one of my favorite heifers phenotypicaly this year calved early and I was sure she would rebreed. She didn't. Oh well she will make good eating.

 

[Grassfarmer]

It was tongue in cheek Dylan. There are some posters on here (Big Swede possibly?)who I believe cull all the heifers that don't settle in the first cycle. Equally what Kit was suggesting - if taken out of context (which I did) would imply that a heifer that breeds very late first time around will prove to be an early calver next turn around and turn in the biggest calf.
Like most things the truth will be somewhere in between.
Our recent experience has been that heifers calving late in the second cycle or early in the third are low fertility animals under our conditions and better culled. Very few of ours have come forward the next year and they almost always turn in a poor calf to boot. Many an old cow can calf late and turn in a good calf but I have very rarely experienced that with a heifer.
We had been calving heifers starting 3 weeks ahead of cows but after the poor weather last spring we backed them off to the same time as the cows.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

It was tongue in cheek Dylan. There are some posters on here (Big Swede possibly?)who I believe cull all the heifers that don't settle in the first cycle. Equally what Kit was suggesting - if taken out of context (which I did) would imply that a heifer that breeds very late first time around will prove to be an early calver next turn around and turn in the biggest calf.
Like most things the truth will be somewhere in between.
Our recent experience has been that heifers calving late in the second cycle or early in the third are low fertility animals under our conditions and better culled. Very few of ours have come forward the next year and they almost always turn in a poor calf to boot. Many an old cow can calf late and turn in a good calf but I have very rarely experienced that with a heifer.
We had been calving heifers starting 3 weeks ahead of cows but after the poor weather last spring we backed them off to the same time as the cows.

It is hard to tell where the tongue is in these posts. I am sure NR will have something to say about that.

 

[Larrry]

Does Kit's income come mainly from cattle or from speaking engagements?

Just curious

 

[Justin]

Larrry.....i would guess cattle

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Does Kit's income come mainly from cattle or from speaking engagements?

Just curious

The point you raise is an interesting one. The way I have asked this question myself before is as seed stock producers we market livestock through ideas or philosophies or formulas for success in commercial livestock enterprises. Yet the ideas expounded that are responsible for our success marketing livestock are not the mold or reality that we as seed stock producers operate and succeed within.

Its sort of like the guys that market systems for a particular industry and their business success comes from the marketing not from making a living with in the system they market.

Its one thing to recommend a certain management system to your customers while you make your living selling $4000 bulls that will gross your customer maybe $550 as a calf.

Is this a valid point?

:???:

 

[Triangle Bar]

I take from that Kit is saying your calving & breeding seasons should match your feed resources. That makes perfect sense especially with his non-supplemented year around grazing management. Maybe that heifer was just a late bloomer or maybe old Kit needed to cake his heifers.:wink: :shock:

Dylan, that is a valid point; however in Kit's situation, I think he actually practices what he preaches.

 

[RobertMac]

Several seedstock providers run Kit down, but the fact is that Kit wouldn't be having the success he has if seedstock providers were supplying bulls that were working for the commercial cattleman...and if Kit's bulls weren't working for the commercial cattleman, he wouldn't be having the success.

 

[Justin]

Several seedstock providers run Kit down, but the fact is that Kit wouldn't be having the success he has if seedstock providers were supplying bulls that were working for the commercial cattleman...and if Kit's bulls weren't working for the commercial cattleman, he wouldn't be having the success.

tough to argue with that.

 

[Angus 62]

Dylan hit the nail right on the head. How many seedstock herds could sell their cattle by the pound and survive? I know of no successful commercial men calving 1800 pound cows in January.

 

[leanin' H]

Again, I feel ya'll need to look for different seed stock producers then! :roll: There are lots of outfits who run commercial cows also and sell dandy bulls. And if the ones doing it "WRONG" didnt have lots of butts sitting in seats raising thier hands during sales, they wouldnt be in buisness! So who's fault is it? The guys selling the bulls or the guys buying them? :???: Buy your bulls the way you like them, talk with your checkbook and it will all sort itself out.

 

[BRG]

Several seedstock providers run Kit down, but the fact is that Kit wouldn't be having the success he has if seedstock providers were supplying bulls that were working for the commercial cattleman...and if Kit's bulls weren't working for the commercial cattleman, he wouldn't be having the success.

On the same token, Kit does alot of running down of seedstock producers himself. He may not name them in his newlsetters, but he does as a group. Take his last newsletter for example. Talking about an Angus breeder who sold 500 bull and averaged over $7000. We all know who he is talking about, but then he goes on and says I am sure their was some "Funny Money" involved. If I was that breeder I would confront good old Kit. Why does one think he has to bad mouth another breeder to be successful. I dispise that type of business!