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Long overdue

Texan

Well-known member
Small Texas school district lets teachers, staff pack pistols

By MARK [email protected]

When classes start Aug. 25 in the tiny Harrold school district, there will be one distinct difference from years prior: Some of the teachers may have guns.

To deter and protect against school shootings, trustees have altered district policy to allow employees to carry concealed weapons if they have a state permit and permission from the administration. The 110-student district lies 150 miles northwest of Fort Worth on the eastern end of Wilbarger County, near the Oklahoma border.

More than a dozen state legislatures have considered making it legal to carry guns on college campuses, but experts and officials contacted by the Star-Telegram say the move is unheard of in elementary or secondary schools.

Superintendent David Thweatt said a main concern was that the small community is a 30-minute drive from the sheriff’s office, leaving students and teachers without protection.

'To be prepared’

The district’s lone campus sits 500 feet from heavily trafficked U.S. 287, which could make it a target, Thweatt said.

Other security measures are in place, including one-way access to enter the school, state-of-the-art surveillance cameras and electric locks on doors. But after the Virginia Tech massacre and the Amish school shooting in Pennsylvania, Thweatt felt he had to take further action, he said.

"When the federal government started making schools gun-free zones, that’s when all of these shootings started," Thweatt said. "Why would you put it out there that a group of people can’t defend themselves? That’s like saying 'sic ’em’ to a dog."

Texas law outlaws firearms on school campuses "unless pursuant to the written regulations or written authorization of the institution."

Thweatt did not say how many of the 50 or so teachers and staff members will be armed this fall because he doesn’t want students or potential attackers to know. Wilbarger County Sheriff Larry Lee was out of the office Thursday and did not immediately return a phone call seeking comment.

Barbara Williams, a spokeswoman for the Texas Association of School Boards, said her organization is not aware of another district doing something similar. Ken Trump, a Cleveland-based school security expert who advises districts nationwide, including in Texas, said Harrold is the first district he knows of to take such a step.

Trump said he would have advised against allowing teachers to arm themselves, if only because of liability concerns. In the long run, it could have been cheaper and safer to hire security or off-duty police, he said. Texas school districts also have the option of forming their own police force, he noted.

"What are the rules for use of force?" Trump said. "Or how about weapons-retention training? Because they could go in to break up a fight in the cafeteria and lose their gun."

Thweatt said the district did not rush into the decision. Officials researched the policy and weighed other options for about a year before trustees voted on the policy in October.

"The naysayers think [a shooting] won’t happen here," he said. "If something were to happen here, I’d much rather be calling a parent to tell them that their child is OK because we were able to protect them."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The gun policy:

Teachers and staffers in the Harrold school district can carry firearms beginning this fall if they:

Have a Texas license to carry a concealed handgun.

Are authorized to carry by the district.

Receive training in crisis management and hostile situations.

Use ammunition that is designed to minimize the risk of ricochet in school halls.

Source: Harrold school district



http://www.star-telegram.com/189/story/834022.html
 

CattleArmy

Well-known member
I heard this on the local radio and couldn't belive my ears. My youngest sat in the backseat and also heard it. He said "People can take guns to school now?" Right there that got me how many other children heard that and put that idea in their minds?

If a teacher needs to take a gun to school to feel safe there is a deep security issue. I think beefing up security through trained individuals is way smarter then letting a bunch of teachers pack heat. What happens when one teacher forgets to keep it "safe" some kid gets it and then what?

Evidentally some Texans need to catch up with the rest of the world and forget the wild wild west.
 

CattleArmy

Well-known member
Larrry said:
What can I say, it has been proven over and over. Guns in the hands of lawabiding citizens reduce crime.


Yes that's it lets arm teachers some who have been known to throw chalk or yes lets arm coaches that throw clip boards or clothing. Yes that sounds like a smart idea. :shock:
 

Ben H

Well-known member
How about we go back to what the intent of this country was in the first place and allow decisions to be made on the smallest level as possible, like what happend here. If a kid has a desire to go on the shooting spree, chances are it's easier to get that gun from home then to steal it from their teacher.
 

Larrry

Well-known member
Yes that's it lets arm teachers some who have been known to throw chalk or yes lets arm coaches that throw clip boards or clothing. Yes that sounds like a smart idea.

That is being way over dramatic and stretching any common sense to assume that would lead to gun violence. Just completely absurd. But what isn't a stretch is thatmore guns lead to less violence


Now CA how can you just ignore these facts and come up with a wild assumption like you did. Because in order to come up with your assumption you have to throw out a proven fact
Because of this proven fact your assumption is just blather.
 

Texan

Well-known member
CattleArmy said:
Yes that's it lets arm teachers some who have been known to throw chalk or yes lets arm coaches that throw clip boards or clothing. Yes that sounds like a smart idea. :shock:
Sounds like your school is like Mrs.Greg's - if you've got teachers with anger management issues, they need to be taken care of by the school administrators. Examples like that only serve to point out the failure of schools to protect kids - even from the teachers. And if you can't trust a teacher with a gun, how in the hell can you trust that teacher with your kids?

Instead of looking for ridiculous examples for reasons NOT to arm teachers - such as thinking that the teachers will be the ones who shoot their students - why don't you ask yourself a simple question. Ask yourself how many lives could have been saved in all of the known school shootings if only a teacher had been armed.

How many kids could have survived those shootings - thanks to a teacher willing to protect his students? Kids that instead DIED because nobody was allowed to protect them. :???:
 

nonothing

Well-known member
First of all Texan there are probably a million more examples of teachers Flipping out then students shooting each other in schools.....If You feel that schools need guns to protect stundents from students then security gaurds should be employed...Schools and guns just do not mix....Again at what point do you tell a teacher to shoot a student?..What point is killing a kid ok by a teacher.....Does a gun have to be pointed at them first?...How must the teacher store thier pistols,in the drawers of a desk,on thier person or in their purse?.....2 kids could easliy just jump a teacher for his/her gun and take it and use it to kill another kid in the school they dislike.....

Also when a person is angry they are said to only use no more then 30% of their normal brain capacity...So yes bad decisions can be made in a fit of anger...You say the answer is anger management,then why is that not also your answer instead gun touting...

The mere suggesting by an adult for a teacher to bring a gun into a school,is one that is made with little thought to the safty of all students and teachers... When the only way to control kids is by guns,I think the message is less about guns and more about social behavior....AS you advise others to fix the problems with angry teachers...Why the hell are you not looking for ways to keep all guns out of your childrens schools.....Your answer is just more guns.....At the very least look into armed security ..What kind of person promotes the killing of kids as the answer to teachers protection...
 

hopalong

Well-known member
nonothing said:
First of all Texan there are probably a million more examples of teachers Flipping out then students shooting each other in schools.....If You feel that schools need guns to protect stundents from students then security gaurds should be employed...Schools and guns just do not mix....Again at what point do you tell a teacher to shoot a student?..What point is killing a kid ok by a teacher.....Does a gun have to be pointed at them first?...How must the teacher store thier pistols,in the drawers of a desk,on thier person or in their purse?.....2 kids could easliy just jump a teacher for his/her gun and take it and use it to kill another kid in the school they dislike.....

Also when a person is angry they are said to only use no more then 30% of their normal brain capacity...So yes bad decisions can be made in a fit of anger...You say the answer is anger management,then why is that not also your answer for gun touting...

The mere suggesting by an adult for a teacher to bring a gun into a school,is one that is made with little thought to the safty of all students and teachers... When the only way to control kids is by guns,I think the message is less about guns and more about social behavior....AS you advise others to fix the problems with angry teachers...Why the hell are you not looking for ways to keep all guns out of your childrens schools.....Your answer is just more guns.....At the very least look into armed security ..What kind of person promotes the killing of kids as the answer to teachers protection...

Actually Nono's signature line is the reason there are so many criminals floating around, not enough people taking shots when they should.
:D :D
 

Ben H

Well-known member
Social behavior I think is the key here, when my mom was in school it was OK to bring your .22 for the shooting club. They didn't have shootings back then did they?
 

Mike

Well-known member
CattleArmy said:
I heard this on the local radio and couldn't belive my ears. My youngest sat in the backseat and also heard it. He said "People can take guns to school now?" Right there that got me how many other children heard that and put that idea in their minds?

If a teacher needs to take a gun to school to feel safe there is a deep security issue. I think beefing up security through trained individuals is way smarter then letting a bunch of teachers pack heat. What happens when one teacher forgets to keep it "safe" some kid gets it and then what?

Evidentally some Texans need to catch up with the rest of the world and forget the wild wild west.

I don't think in any way does this require teachers to bring guns to school.

The main effect this will have is for any student wanting to bring a gun to school will think twice because of the suggestion that a teacher "MIGHT" have a gun.

Before this.........there was no doubt that there were no guns in a school...

The guns themselves have very little to do with the legislation. It's the underlying ramifications that will make schools safer.
 

backhoeboogie

Well-known member
CattleArmy said:
Evidentally some Texans need to catch up with the rest of the world and forget the wild wild west.

Who should we catch up with? Places like Washington D.C.? From what I hear and see, we are much better off as is.

If you don't like things here in Texas, leave. Please!
 

Ben H

Well-known member
I can't remember peoples names and locations off the top of my head, but there was a case where these girls were raped and beaten, they had called 911 after being broken into, after more then one call nobody showed up. Long story short, they tried suing the police. It was ruled that it's not the police's job to protect you. You are the overall person responsible for protecting yourself.
This is why right to carry works, you don't mess with people if they MIGHT be carrying. I believe that many of these school shootings could have been de-escalated faster if they weren't "gun free zones"
 

Texan

Well-known member
This was published after the 1998 school shootings in Jonesboro, Arkansas. You liberals pay close attention to the highlighted part.

===============================================


How to Stop School Shootings

By John R. Lott, Jr.

This week's horrific shootings in Arkansas have, predictably, spurred calls or more gun control. But it's worth noting that the shootings occurred in one of the few places in Arkansas where possessing a gun is illegal. Arkansas, Kentucky and Mississippi the three states that have had deadly shootings in public schools over the past half-year all allow law-abiding adults to carry concealed handgun for self-protection, except in public schools. Indeed, federal law generally prohibits guns within 1000 feet of a school.

Gun prohibitionists concede that banning guns around schools has not quite worked as intended but their response has been to call for more regulations of guns. Yet what might appear to be the most obvious policy may actually cost lives. When gun control laws are passed, it is law-abiding citizens, not would-be criminals, who adhere to them. Obviously the police cannot be everywhere, so these laws risk creating situations in which the good guys cannot defend themselves from the bad ones.

Consider a fact hardly mentioned during the massive news coverage of the October 1997 shooting spree at a high school in Pearl, Miss.: An assistant principal retrieved a gun from his car and physically immobilized the gunman for a full 41/2 minutes while waiting for the police to arrive. The gunman had already fatally shot two students (after earlier stabbing his mother to death). Who knows how many lives the assistant principal saved by his prompt response?

Allowing teachers and other law-abiding adults to carry concealed handguns in schools would not only make it easier to stop shootings in progress, it could also help deter shootings from ever occurring. Twenty-five or more years ago in Israel, terrorists would pull out machine guns in malls and fire away at civilians. However, with expanded concealed-handgun use by Israeli citizens, terrorists soon found the ordinary people around them pulling pistols on them. Suffice it to say, terrorists in Israel no longer engage in such public shootings to respond.

The one recent shooting of school children in Israel further illustrates these points. On March 13.1997, seven seventh and eighth-grade Israeli girls were shot to death by a Jordanian soldier while they visited Jordan's so-called Island of Peace. The Los Angeles Times reports that the Israelis had "complied with Jordanian requests to leave their weapons behind when they entered the border enclave. Otherwise, they might have been able to stop the shooting, several parents said."

Together with my colleague William Landes, I have studied multiple-victim public shootings in the U.S. from 1977 to 1995. These were incidents in which at least two people were killed or injured in a public place; to focus on the type of shooting seen in Arkansas we excluded shootings that were the byproduct of another crime, such as robbery. The U.S. averaged 21 such shootings per year, with an average of 1.8 people killed and 2.7 wounded in each one.

We examined a whole range of different gun laws as well as other methods of deterrence, such as the death penalty. However, only one policy succeeded in reducing deaths and injuries from these shootings-allowing law-abiding citizens to carry concealed handguns.

The effect of "shall-issue" concealed handgun laws-which give adults the right to carry concealed handguns if they do not have a criminal record or a history of significant mental illness-has been dramatic. Thirty-one states now have such laws. When states passed them during the 19 years we studied, the number of multiple-victim public shootings declined by 84%. Deaths from these shootings plummeted on average by 90%, injuries by 82%. Higher arrest rates and increased use of the death penalty slightly reduced the incidence of these events, but the effects were never statistically significant.

With over 19,600 people murdered in 1996, those killed in multiple victim public shootings account for fewer than 0.2% of the total. Yet these are surely the murders that attract national as well as international attention, often for days after the attack. Victims recount their feelings of utter helplessness as a gunman methodically shoots his cowering prey.

Unfortunately, much of the public policy debate is driven by lopsided coverage of gun use. Tragic events like those in Arkansas receive massive news coverage, as they should, but discussions of the 2.5 million times each year that people use guns defensively including cases in which public shootings are stopped before they happen--are ignored. Dramatic stories of mothers who prevented their children from being kidnapped by carjackers seldom even make the local news.

Attempts to outlaw guns from schools, no matter how well meaning, have backfired. Instead of making school safe for children, we have made them safe for those intent on harming our children. Current school policies fire teachers who even accidentally bring otherwise legal concealed handguns to school. We might consider reversing this policy and begin rewarding teachers who take on the responsibility to help protect children.



http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=399
 

Texan

Well-known member
Harrold school district's gun policy violates law, group says

By MARK AGEE

Attorneys for a Washington, D.C.-based gun-control advocacy group have the tiny school district of Harrold in their sights.

The 110-student district, 150 miles northwest of Fort Worth near Wichita Falls, made international news last week with a new policy that allows teachers to carry handguns if they have a state permit and permission from the district. The move appears to be unprecedented.

But the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence says school officials may be violating state law.

"When I first read about this, I couldn’t believe it was legal," said Marsha McCartney, president of the Texas chapter of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. "It turns out it wasn’t."

Harrold Superintendent David Thweatt didn’t return a phone call late Tuesday, but he has said that the district researched the idea for a year before presenting it to trustees. He has also said he is confident in the legality of the policy.

The change was necessary because his school is 30 minutes from the closest law enforcement agency, the Wilbarger County Sheriff’s Department, leaving students unprotected, he said.

Gov. Rick Perry endorsed the concept of Harrold’s policy at a news conference Monday, citing mass shootings he said could have been stopped if the victims had been armed. He cited the training required before a Harrold teacher or staff member can be approved to carry a gun as a factor that should alleviate concerns.

The legal issues

Texas criminal law prohibits firearms at schools "unless pursuant to the written regulations or written authorization of the institution."

That is the section of law that Harrold officials cited when discussing the policy.

Brady Center lawyers cite a section of the education code that could cloud the issue.

It reads, "If a board of trustees authorizes a person employed as security personnel to carry a weapon, the person must be a commissioned peace officer."

Cheryl Mehl, an Austin attorney who represents Harrold, said that statute does not apply in this instance.

"It says that’s the case if they are employed as a security personnel," she said. "These are not security personnel. Those are teachers who are just helping to make sure the school is a safer place."

Mehl said the issue is a matter of local control and "within the board’s authority."

"The Legislature has empowered them to govern and set policies as they see fit," she said.

Brady lawyers also said the policy is simply a bad idea.

"One of the reasons our nation’s K-12 schools are far safer than surrounding areas of society is because firearms are very tightly regulated on school property," a memo from the lawyers to the Texas chapter states. It cites federal data showing that children are safer at school than elsewhere. "It is a myth that gun-free schools increase the dangers to our children."

Local schools

Tarrant County school districts prohibit guns unless they are carried by police.

Fort Worth, Arlington, Birdville, Carroll, Grapevine-Colleyville and Hurst-Euless-Bedford have arrangements with police departments to provide school resource officers.

"You cannot bring a gun onto school property whether you’re staff, a teacher or administrator regardless of whether you have a conceal-carry license," said Clint Bond, a spokesman for the Fort Worth district. "The only people who are authorized to carry weapons on our campuses, in school district facilities, are police."

Texas districts can operate their own police departments, as Mansfield and Aledo do.

"With [Harrold’s] particular situation, being in a rather remote area, I’m sure they just don’t have the funding to have a full-time police department," said Mike Leyman, the Mansfield district’s police chief. "I think each school district has to make decisions on what’s best for them, and I guess this is the Harrold district’s approach."

Most area teachers would oppose a policy that encouraged them to carry guns at school, said Larry Shaw, director of the United Educators Association. The group represents 16,000 teachers in Fort Worth and surrounding areas.

"I think it would scare teachers to death," he said. "One, it’s too much responsibility. And there’s also the possibility of accidents."

Staff writers Traci Shurley, Matt Frazier, Jessamy Brown, Shirley Jinkins and Eva-Marie Ayala contributed to this report, which includes material from The Associated Press.



http://www.star-telegram.com/state_news/story/844988.html
 

RobertMac

Well-known member
Mike Leyman, the Mansfield district’s police chief. "I think each school district has to make decisions on what’s best for them, and I guess this is the Harrold district’s approach."
This has been the most contentious issue since the beginning of our country...who would be the final arbiter of the law...the people and their local government or the Federal government and their bureaucrats. The conflict peaked in the 1860s...we no longer have a "government of the people, by the people, for the people".

Teachers allowed to carry should have proper training. What would make the law most effective would be not having students know which teachers are armed.
 

TSR

Well-known member
RobertMac said:
Mike Leyman, the Mansfield district’s police chief. "I think each school district has to make decisions on what’s best for them, and I guess this is the Harrold district’s approach."
This has been the most contentious issue since the beginning of our country...who would be the final arbiter of the law...the people and their local government or the Federal government and their bureaucrats. The conflict peaked in the 1860s...we no longer have a "government of the people, by the people, for the people".

Teachers allowed to carry should have proper training. What would make the law most effective would be not having students know which teachers are armed.

I agree that the kids wouldn't need to know which teacher was armed. But that would be pratctically an impossibility. Most kids know at least a day in advance when the police are coming to their school and doing a random drug search. Why don't all prison guards carry guns, btw.??
 
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