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look at these bulls' pedigrees/EPDs

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ross

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We are looking to buy the two bulls below. They will be used on beefmasters and commercial brangus and baldies. I have no pics yet, but by looking at the pedigree and epds, what do you think: (I know a picture is worth a thousand words, but this is all i got :) )

http://www.angus.org/common/epd_ped_dtl.html?A=0E061F55555E45425958435C5840555543594F41584F415C520F&B=44465C46465A4446

http://www.angus.org/common/epd_ped_dtl.html?A=0E061F55555E45425958435C5840555543594F41594F4059520F&B=44465E44405C4444
 

seth

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Love to help you out Ross, but your links didn't show any particular bull. just the search page. What happened or is my computer at fault?
 

DOC HARRIS

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ross said:
We are looking to buy the two bulls below. They will be used on beefmasters and commercial brangus and baldies. I have no pics yet, but by looking at the pedigree and epds, what do you think: (I know a picture is worth a thousand words, but this is all i got :) )

http://www.angus.org/common/epd_ped_dtl.html?A=0E061F55555E45425958435C5840555543594F41584F415C520F&B=44465C46465A4446

http://www.angus.org/common/epd_ped_dtl.html?A=0E061F55555E45425958435C5840555543594F41594F4059520F&B=44465E44405C4444
Seth - Give us the Reg numbers of the Bulls in question.

DOC HARRIS
 

DOC HARRIS

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ross said:
sorry abou that folks...here's the reg numbers:
14212016
14034614
Ross -
As has been stated before on this Forum - you would be advised to have a pretty good idea what your COW'S genetics are and to have a plan for WHY you are using these bulls. You stated they will be used on Beefmasters and commercial Brangus and Baldies, so I assume that this program is a strictly commercial endeavor. Am I correct? Have you seen the bull's Dams yet? Are you planning to keep ANY heifers for replacements from these bulls any time in the future? Do you have the print-outs on their pedigrees from AAA?

Their Production EPD's are reasonably close (important for consistency of the resulting calves) with the exception of the Maternal (Milk) numbers. Exacto L56 is CONSIDERABLY higher in Milk (+32) than Shurtop 054 (+13). I am not saying that is a negative, for I don't know the Maternal traits of your cows, but you should think about the differences. Exacto's Carcass numbers are APPRECIABLY more desirable than those of Shurtop's - with the exception of Marbling, which in your particular breeding situation is rather insignificant considering that the difference is only +.12. The $Value differences are also not too much to be concerned about at this level of your breeding program.

My suggestion would be this: I would choose to use the Exacto L56 Bull and attempt to locate another bull which would more closely match his Carcass traits, - with the ASSUMPTION that the selected Bull and Exacto L56 matched phenotype as well - again for calf consistency.

If your goal is TERMINAL progeny for commercial feedlot uses - I think that your two original choices (Exacto L56 & Shurtop 054) would work out okay - however I am not too pleased with Shurtop 054's Carcass numbers.

I hope this evaluation is helpful in your decision-making efforts.

DOC HARRIS
 

ross

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DOC, thanks for the thorough evaluation.

Our beefmaster cows are registered and we are planning on putting angus bulls on them and market the calves as E-6s. They will be used as clean up bulls on some of the cows since we will be doing a small amount of embryo transferring from one of our donor cows. We will selectively use the E6s as replacements.
 

DOC HARRIS

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ross said:
DOC, thanks for the thorough evaluation.

Our beefmaster cows are registered and we are planning on putting angus bulls on them and market the calves as E-6s. They will be used as clean up bulls on some of the cows since we will be doing a small amount of embryo transferring from one of our donor cows. We will selectively use the E6s as replacements.
Ross-
I would certainly utilize Exacto L56 and seek another bull of equal Phenotype and Genotype. It seems that you have an exciting breeding program planned, and you have obviously done your homework! Congratulations on your thought processes!

DOC HARRIS
 

alabama

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I think Doc has given you some good advice.
I do have a question.
I noticed that the owner is not the breeder. I assume you are looking at used bulls. You may get to see some of his calves if you ask.
You may get a much better price that form the breeder. I would want a discount.
 

Angus Breeder

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Ross, Just a few thoughts on your 2 bulls. First the 416 son has a much more intresting pedigree than the supreme son. when you start comparing strengths and weakness, the 416 son quickly rises to the top. If you are in fact breeding cows for a terminal end package, then you need not pay much attention to the maternal traits. As far as growth traits the two bulls are pretty comparable falling into the top 50% of the breed for WW and YW EPD's. When you get to looking at their $ Values the 416 son really starts to look good. I will not comment on the carcass values as the Supreme son had been ultrasounded and the 416 has not. Carcass EPD's are strictly based on what their parents have done. We like to look at the Ultrasound information before we make any decisions, that way you know exactly what that animal is capable of transmitting to his offspring. Based on the numbers the 416 son will be far easier to maintain and keep in good flesh than his counter-part.
 

ross

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well we ended up buying both bulls after making a deal we felt we couldn't pass on. I appreciate the wonderful advice that yall have offered!!

Now that we have both bulls I have formulated a plan that will hopefully maximize each of the bulls' potential.
For the Exacto bull, we plan on using him in our replacement program for his superior maternal traits and hopefully match him up with some great mommas to produce some even better ones.
For the Shurtop bull, we will consider most of his offspring as terminal calves and expect most to go to the feedlot giving this bull's slightly better weaning and yearling weights and feedlot value.
This is our preliminary plan and of course will still use good judgement when selecting the ones we keep and the ones we don't.
Any criticism (positive and/or negative) would be appreciated.
 

DOC HARRIS

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ross said:
well we ended up buying both bulls after making a deal we felt we couldn't pass on. I appreciate the wonderful advice that yall have offered!!

Now that we have both bulls I have formulated a plan that will hopefully maximize each of the bulls' potential.
For the Exacto bull, we plan on using him in our replacement program for his superior maternal traits and hopefully match him up with some great mommas to produce some even better ones.
For the Shurtop bull, we will consider most of his offspring as terminal calves and expect most to go to the feedlot giving this bull's slightly better weaning and yearling weights and feedlot value.
This is our preliminary plan and of course will still use good judgement when selecting the ones we keep and the ones we don't.
Any criticism (positive and/or negative) would be appreciated.
Ross-
I think that the decisions you have made are the result of good thought, investigation, and careful planning! Any good businessman, whatever the BUSINESS he is in, must plan ahead, negotiate for the best advantage and continue to re-vamp decisions as the need and circumstances dictate, and it seems that you have certainly done just that! I would suggest that you continue to seek bulls for your future breeding plans, take their pedigrees and all the numbers you can get on them and match them to the anticipated numbers and pedigrees of your replacement heifers BEFORE they are of an age to where you will be in a rush to find a bull for them. Use the exercise as a game and see what you can come up with!

I am just assuming that you subscribe to the Angus Journal! If not - DO SO! Every month it has information in each issue that is invaluable to Beef Producers. And the American Angus Association Angus Information Management Software (AIMS ) program can help you to use the computer to easily compare pedigrees and other electronic 'stuff' if you are a member of the Angus Association. I wish you all the best with your new bulls! Please keep us all apprised of your progress.

DOC HARRIS
 

TSR

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ross said:
well we ended up buying both bulls after making a deal we felt we couldn't pass on. I appreciate the wonderful advice that yall have offered!!

Now that we have both bulls I have formulated a plan that will hopefully maximize each of the bulls' potential.
For the Exacto bull, we plan on using him in our replacement program for his superior maternal traits and hopefully match him up with some great mommas to produce some even better ones.
For the Shurtop bull, we will consider most of his offspring as terminal calves and expect most to go to the feedlot giving this bull's slightly better weaning and yearling weights and feedlot value.
This is our preliminary plan and of course will still use good judgement when selecting the ones we keep and the ones we don't.
Any criticism (positive and/or negative) would be appreciated.[/quote

Ross If the 416 son ( I am assuming Alberda Traveler 416) performs as his sire you will be wanting to retain some of his daughters and possibly retain some sons as bulls for your herd. 416 is not perfect but I really like his progeny in my herd. They are thick with more muscle than any of the bulls I have used thus far. His epd's could be a little better with respect to retail product, fat thickness, and rea but sometimes there are tradeoffs that are worth it.JMHO
 

Faster horses

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When they held the Beef Cow Symposium in Greeley, Co. a few years back, they used 416 to demonstrate goodness in the Angus breed. He is also a GeneStar, whatever that means.

I think 416 is a good foundation bull.

That said, I wanted one real bad 4 or 5 years ago. So we bought the top bull at a local sale. Jon Alberda (breeder of 416) was there and consulted with us (well, me anyway. My husband HATES bull sales). Jon Alberda is a great guy. Anyway, that bull was out of a daughter of Bon View Bando 598 and he was a disappointment. He was so good as a yearling. Long and smooth. As he got older he got taller and longer and taller and longer. Just what we didn't want. Hard-doing, and the heifers looked to be the same. In researching the genetics, I found the problem came from 598. So, though 598 is promoted heavily, we found his bloodlines don't work in the real world of SE Montana. FWIW. No thanks to 598, we will pass.

Now I want some 004. (Or is it 044). Makes it hard on old people when they run those numbers so close... :wink:
 

TSR

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Faster horses said:
When they held the Beef Cow Symposium in Greeley, Co. a few years back, they used 416 to demonstrate goodness in the Angus breed. He is also a GeneStar, whatever that means.

I think 416 is a good foundation bull.

That said, I wanted one real bad 4 or 5 years ago. So we bought the top bull at a local sale. Jon Alberda (breeder of 416) was there and consulted with us (well, me anyway. My husband HATES bull sales). Jon Alberda is a great guy. Anyway, that bull was out of a daughter of Bon View Bando 598 and he was a disappointment. He was so good as a yearling. Long and smooth. As he got older he got taller and longer and taller and longer. Just what we didn't want. Hard-doing, and the heifers looked to be the same. In researching the genetics, I found the problem came from 598. So, though 598 is promoted heavily, we found his bloodlines don't work in the real world of SE Montana. FWIW. No thanks to 598, we will pass.

FH, evidently 598 was the problem, the comments I have gotten when someone sees the 416 son I retained for use on some comercial cows have all been very positive. He is the most muscular bull that I have raised with great volume, really thick across his topline, and even the Genex rep has commented that he is one of the longest, best loooking 416 sons he has seen. I will also say he has given me my best set of calves yet from those commercial cows. He is very easy doing, as are his daughters thus far, and they will be calving in January. Just my experience with 416. Yes 416 is positive for both genes that have a positive effect on marbling that is why he is called a Genestar bull. I have bred some of his daughters to Freightliner which is positive for the tenderness genes. I guess we will see what happens come Jan. and Feb. I really like matching buls to cows using this "genetic stuff" along with the rest of the epd information. Its verrry interesting.
 

Angus Breeder

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Faster Horses, I think you are talking about a completly diffrent bull. I think the bull that was purchased by ross was a son of JLB Exacto 416, and the bull you are refering to is Alberda Traveler 416. Another classic of running the numbers to close. The bull you wish to have a son out of is the 004 bull and those calves are getting more popular by the minute.
 

DOC HARRIS

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Angus Breeder said:
Faster Horses, I think you are talking about a completly diffrent bull. I think the bull that was purchased by ross was a son of JLB Exacto 416, and the bull you are refering to is Alberda Traveler 416. Another classic of running the numbers to close. The bull you wish to have a son out of is the 004 bull and those calves are getting more popular by the minute.
Faster Horses - I think AB is correct. there are "Two - count 'em - Two" different '416's. When the 'Nick names' are used sometimes they overlap on another animal, and that can cause problems, as is the case here.

DOC HARRIS
 

Jake

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now I'm going to take a different spin than DOC and say to breed to Shurtop. If your selling replacements to other people from this cross I"d take Shurtop with the 6807 background to ensure some high quality females. This bull also has balanced EPDs fro WW and YW, no extremes there in either direction. Since your breeding mature Bos Indicus influenced cows I wouldn't worry about his BW EPD or his CED. He also has an adequate Milk EPD for breeding to your cows. The +32 of Shurtop will make hard keeping females that will look their profitiability. the only $$Value he's lacking on is grid, but as a replacement female, young bull type setting that your in carcass EPDs aren't quite as important because for the most part the customer isn't going to care as we aren't to that point in the industry yet. People would rather have a calf that looks nice and grows than one that has good carcass traits. I would shy away from the Exacto bull for replacements because of the mass ammounts of Bando genetics in his pedigree. I have seen and quite often heard of poor uddered, hard doing females from Bando. Never quite understood it as he is a relative of 6807 through the old Band 234 of Ideal 3163
 

ross

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point well taken. i did notice how strong the shurtop bull's maternal pedigree is with the great 6807 daughter emma 389. i did some research on her, and she has produced some high quality (high selling) calves/flushes. As i said before, we will just have to use good judgement on how the calves look when selecting replacements, regardless of the bull.
 

Jake

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Jake said:
The +32 of Shurtop will make hard keeping females that will look their profitiability.

Excuse me I meant the +32 Milk of EXACTO will make hard keeping females that will be less profitable.
 

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