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Looking at some young Angus Bull and could use a lottle help

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McGee213288

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Bull born 09/14/10...

Production EPD
Ind. CED BW WW YW YH SC
+10/.29 +1.3/.36 +53/.28 +.88/.23 I+.2/.05 I+.04/.05

These are on his papers....so what do they mean??? There are maternal, Carcass and Values...

I have 10 heifer in the same range age wise as this fella...I wish to breed him too...

Can ya'll tell me what I'm looking at here???...I really don't have a clue!!
 

bain simmental

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the CED is calving ease difficulty, the bw is birth weight, weaning weight, yearling weight. The way you read them is +/- over breed average, for heifers i like high calving ease bulls and negative birth weights. Hope this helps some.
 

river rat

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Do you have a registration number on his papers you could provide? From what I can tell with the numbers you provided it looks as if he'd be good to fair as far as calving ease, but I can't decifer :? the rest of your e.p.d.'s without a little more info. If you can get the reg. # I'll do my best to help you out when I check back in on the sight.
 

McGee213288

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I'm looking at 2 bulls...one for my brangus Heifers his # is AAA 16713514 The 2nd is for our brangus Mammas' ..his # is AAA16947352

Thank-you!!...
 

river rat

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Alright, I just went to the American Angus website and did a little research on your two bulls. The one you are planning to use on heifers appears to be modest birth (not as light as some bulls out there) but should be suitable if your heifers are grown out well, and if you don't have alot of birthweight on the momma's side. I'm unfamiliar with brangus, but I assume they aren't large birthweight cattle so I think he'd work on your heifers. Both he and the bull you propose to use on your cows have a great deal of growth bred in them as well as tremendous carcass potential. Their respective marbling e.p.d.s are tremendous so they will help your Brangus X calves hopefully grade choice when slaughtered. The only negative I see in both bulls is their pedigree indicates that their offspring will be higher maintenence (harder keeping cows :( ) than some other bulls in the breed, but it's very hard to find bulls that excel in every area. Hope this will help in your future breeding sucess. :wink:
 

McGee213288

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Thank-you!! River Rat...wonderful of you to take the time... :D ...I have never had registered cattle before...didn't know you could research the registry :oops: ...too COOL!!.. :D
 

Aladar

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you might want to check those reg numbers again==the second bull is NHC per the papers.
 

river rat

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Aladar is sure right. I was so in a hurry to check all the e.p.d.s. out that I missed the NHC on the top :oops: . That's the genetic defect they call "curly calf." Probably want to find, or choose, a different sire if that's possible, sure don't want to breed that into your herd. Good find Aladar!!!
 

jscunn

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It isnt "curly calf" that would be AMC, NH is Neurohydrocelphaus. (commonly referred to as water head). Much worse on the cow carrying the pregnancy especially if she carries to term. higher chance of dystocia.
 

leanin' H

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My two cents...... Personally i'd stay away from both bulls as they have GAR precision 1680 in their pedigree. Thanks to help from folks here, i learned a little about him and then did more research on my own. He carries genetic defects that i don't want any part of. And even though my opinion might not be the same as others, i don't want his offspring, even if they aren't carries of his defects. No science involved, merely my gut feeling. As far as the EPD's go, i agree with River Rat. If you keep heifers out of either bull they may be a little bit the type that are hard keepers, meaning don't convert grass to pounds as well as others. Good luck with which ever decision you make! :D
 

BlackCattleRancher

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leanin' H said:
My two cents...... Personally i'd stay away from both bulls as they have GAR precision 1680 in their pedigree. Thanks to help from folks here, i learned a little about him and then did more research on my own. He carries genetic defects that i don't want any part of. And even though my opinion might not be the same as others, i don't want his offspring, even if they aren't carries of his defects. No science involved, merely my gut feeling. As far as the EPD's go, i agree with River Rat. If you keep heifers out of either bull they may be a little bit the type that are hard keepers, meaning don't convert grass to pounds as well as others. Good luck with which ever decision you make! :D
but what kind of defects do all the other bulls have? The only reason Precision 1680's defects have been found is because his genetics have been used so extensively. Use any other sire that much and you will be sure to find other defects.
 

leanin' H

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BlackCattleRancher said:
leanin' H said:
My two cents...... Personally i'd stay away from both bulls as they have GAR precision 1680 in their pedigree. Thanks to help from folks here, i learned a little about him and then did more research on my own. He carries genetic defects that i don't want any part of. And even though my opinion might not be the same as others, i don't want his offspring, even if they aren't carries of his defects. No science involved, merely my gut feeling. As far as the EPD's go, i agree with River Rat. If you keep heifers out of either bull they may be a little bit the type that are hard keepers, meaning don't convert grass to pounds as well as others. Good luck with which ever decision you make! :D
but what kind of defects do all the other bulls have? The only reason Precision 1680's defects have been found is because his genetics have been used so extensively. Use any other sire that much and you will be sure to find other defects.

Possibly. But 1680 is proven to be the source of several defects. Why use a bull with PROVEN issues? Again, just my opinion. McGee213288 asked for advice and i submitted mine. :D I prefer not introducing 1680 genetics at all. Just because he's used a lot doesn't mean i have to use him, right? :wink: :D By the way, name another bull proven to be the source of genetic defects? :?
 

Aladar

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still better for the commercial producer to use a registered angus bull, where you can look up the papers on the net, and KNOW what you have, rather than out of oklahoma by trailer, which is what amounts to use with the other breeds.

1680 was the source of NH

AM started farther back in his pedigree.

If you want to think about something, how did the registered crossbred breeds become black? Answer--the used these very same lines to add carcass and turn the breed black, simply because that is what they needed. So when you run those pedigrees back to "black cow" you better assume that the animal has the potential to carry AM or NH unless it is tested free.
At least with the black angus, the potential is noted.
 
A

Anonymous

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There are a whole lot about both bulls pedigrees I don't like- both contain a lot of Precision and New Design and the one is double bred Precision and double bred New Design- neither of which was good for a cow herd- and are strictly terminal bulls to my thinking...

But I think the thing that would shy me away is that NO reputable breeder/seedstock provider would/should be selling known NH/or any genetic defect carrier for breeding stock.... Thats putting greed for the almighty dollar ahead of whats best for the cattle/breed industry...

I think I would be going down the road and looking for another breeder-- and especially if they didn't take the time ahead of time in their sales pitch to explain that the animal was tested a genetic carrier- I'd be running down the road...

And Aladar is right on about all these "other" black breeds that can be carrying the genetic defect potential- along with some red angus and percentage cattle...
 

Hay Feeder

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There are several pretty good bulls for sale. For ten heifers I would expect one would have to pencil what they can pay for bull . My customers and potential customers pencil that in different ways. For the most part pedgiree wise it is difficult to sell the GAR breeding anywhere except for the died in the wool customers. Not long ago that was extreamly popular.

Pick the bull you like and decide what YOU want not what someone else wants to sell you. The people I deal with want something they need or want they glance at the BW and WW epds. How gentle the bul is and how he handles is very important to the buyers along with his age.

Everytime somone asks these questions they get more information that they want. With the drought in the south this year I expect the BW number to be pretty low and way to low making northern cattle look numbers to big BW which in fact they are not. At the same time the southern cattle should be lower in WW this year and in likehood they are not either. ALL the epds work for and agaist one another.

Its just as easy to find bull the buyer likes and glance at his papers and epds. I will agree the GAR breeding up close in the bulls is not very popular either for a breeder and for a commerical producer.
 

river rat

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I jumped into this thred and tried to help, and now we've found a whole range of issues. As for the defect, I was mistaken, it is waterhead and you definitly don't want any of those if it can be avoided. It would have to be in your cowherd to get any fullblown cases, but you will definitly have replacements as carriers and that would not be a good situation. I have to agree with the others in the fact that whoever this seedstock supplier is that sold you a bull with a known genetic issue was very dishonest and I would consider that a HORRIBLE!!! buisness decision on their part . There's no way I would even consider turning that bull out, and I would demand your purchase price be returned :mad: :mad: . As far as the thoughts on other bulls carrying the same amount of defects as Precision, I totally disagree. Breeders that have had the courage to line breed have eliminated nearly all of these defects before there were even tests for them. I have bulls on my place that trace to Rito 707 over 100 times if you extended their pedigree far enough back and we've never had a problem any of them. EXT is another one that has been linebred at Sinclairs in everyway imaginable and these defects do not show up. It's the breeders that continually used different lines (bull of the month)every year that covered up these defects for years, and when the gene pool finally shrunk down they statred to line these cattle up and WHAMO!!! things started happening. I've have a bull right now that has worked great on our Rito and Band lines of cattle that I just found out has the potential to be a carrier of CA because of the Bando 598 about 6 generations back. I've got him at the bull stud but I'm waiting for the test results to get back before collecting him this year. He had a positive on his maternal sire side so there's about a 33% chance he could be a carrier. Should have stuck with linebred cattle I suppose but was looking for an outcross kick. Might have really gotten a KICK :cry: eh!!
 

McGee213288

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HOLY SHEEP S*IT BATMAN!!!!.....Thank-Ya'll!!...after I eyeballed this thread...I went to diggin'...OMG!!...I called the breeder...and HE liked to of stroked!!...We are good!...Thank-ya'll for taking the time to give your opinions... :D
 

McGee213288

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OK....What would be the perfect EPDs if there was such a thing...for calvin ease...carcass.. Maternal & Paternal traits...after Christmas we will pick another Bull... :D
 
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