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heluvaranch

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I had an interesting question arise to me yesterday. I said I would post it on here and see what kind of interesting feedback there was.

What is the perfect frame scored commercial cow?

Now I know a lot of people say a moderate framed easy fleshing cow. I wont disput that. The heart of this question was, what would work best? A moderate framed cow bred to a moderate framed bull? A bigger framed cow bred to a smaller framed bull? Or? What frame bull and cow will cross best to get the ideal feedlot calf? Now I know environment has a lot to do with it. I was asked to add feed and terrain are not an issue. Just best case senario.
 
Ideal feedlot type calves arent the ideal replacement calves. If you're keeping your own replacements you will breed differently than if you buy them and breed a terminal cross. If there was a perfect frame size we'd have nothing to argue about.
 
The key is breeding like to like. If you breed a large frame to a small frame trying to get a 'moderate' frame you're gonna be doing it for a long time. Ben Lawson says you get 'one like the sire, one like the dam and
one in the middle.'

I'd say the perfect frame size is 5.5. But that's only my opinion.
Then you could breed her to a 5.5 or 6 frame bull and have adequte
size in replacements and steers. I've heard there is a direct correlation
between mature cow size and mature steer size. But someone else
would know better than me about that.

I agree with what Silver posted, too.

Hope this helps.
 
Silver,
I certainly wont argue anything you are saying. As I have said on other message board regarding this topic. At the end of the day you have to be happy with the cattle that are standing in your pasture. Now if those cows make you money well . . . . :roll:

FH,
I agree but along the same lines I also disagree about like to like. Its a double edged sword with that statement at least in my eyes. I have discussed that exact statement a million times over and over with different people. I wont say it wrong but my question is if you have a 8 frame cow that is meaner than snot for instance you wouldnt want to breed her to an 8 frame bull that would run ya down IF you are trying to breed more moderate framed easy going cattle. Maybe my perspective of the statemen is a little off. I do agree that if you breed a big frame to a little frame you will as you said get a big, a little, and a moderate eventually.lol

These are the perfect kind of answers I am looking for to take with me. Trying to expain frame to a close friend and we both see it differently. Hoping some of this info might open both of our eyes!
 
heluvaranch said:
I had an interesting question arise to me yesterday. I said I would post it on here and see what kind of interesting feedback there was.

What is the perfect frame scored commercial cow?

Now I know a lot of people say a moderate framed easy fleshing cow. I wont disput that. The heart of this question was, what would work best? A moderate framed cow bred to a moderate framed bull? A bigger framed cow bred to a smaller framed bull? Or? What frame bull and cow will cross best to get the ideal feedlot calf? Now I know environment has a lot to do with it. I was asked to add feed and terrain are not an issue. Just best case senario.
Click to expand...

I won't attach a number to the perfect frame scored commercial cow as most people don't actually measure frame score preferring guestimates that justify the animals they already have. Rather like everyone having the perfect 1200lb but they have never actually weighed them.
In terms of efficiency for a commercial cow producing feedlot cattle you want the smallest size that can safely calf and adequately rear a terminal sired calf. This is the place to use hybrid vigor and maximise profits by reducing your cow maintenance costs while maximising output. It also gives the opportunity to produce those 50% or 60% of dams weaning weights that folks dream of.

I don't think "like to like" is really appropriate in this scenario although I believe it to be true in purebred operations where the objective should be to stabilize and reproduce a true breed type.
 
It's all about feed conversion in the feedlot. Well, it depends on who owns the cattle. The owner of the cattle cares about feed conversion whereas the custom feeder just prefers to keep the cattle in the hotel as long as possible. :lol: Most of the time it's the cattle that can grow to a fairly heavy weight that are going to win the feed conversion contest. Doesn't matter what breed or color, if they have some gas in the tank and a decent growth curve then they'll keep gaining at an efficient rate to a heavy weight. Today's average carcass weight for steers is 850 lbs., which converts to a 1,338 live weight at 63.5% dressed. Can't do that with little bitty cattle, so the smaller framed ones will have to go out at lighter weights before they plateau on feed conversion. Hybrid vigor and some percentile of continental cross on british breeds will achieve some decent conversion rates. Calf feds usually convert better than yearlings from start to finish because they start younger and smaller. Frame size isn't that big of a deal, but I wouldn't want to buy any frame fours to go on feed if I didn't have to.

By the way, yes, I've seen some straight Angus cattle convert in the low 5 to 1 type of conversion rates, but only the really good ones. They were framier cattle.

Not saying any of this is absolute gospel, but I'll bet this way when it's my money on the line.

Good discussion.

HP
 
I feed all mine out-a cowherd that produces your 'best' feedlot cattle can break you at their own feedbunk-we have pretty maternal cattle but our calves perform within the top quarter of the cattle the outfit feeds which is good enough for me. The number I worry about is profit per head-it encompasses cost of gain-quality grade- etc. Focusing on one number can get you in a bit of a jam. All our selection pressure at home is on low cost cows-we let the feedlot deal take care of itself. When buying bulls if 'ALL' else is equal I let ultrasound data break the tie but I put good feet and legs above it every time.
 
The perfect frame score cow is one that is paid for and generating a profit with every calf. I agree with the terminal sire concept. It lets you use a frame or two bigger sire across your cows.
 
Unless you want to go out and buy replacements every year- you need to breed like to like-- good moderate maternal cows to good moderate maternal bulls- which can continue to perform in the area you exist-- which to me in most cases of what exists out there now with the angus breed genetics is 5 frame or less- and from herds that didn't buy into the "bigger, better, faster" scenerio...

And I say this only because I went thru the trainwreck of these "high performance" "bigger, better fasters"...
 
There certainly is no perfect frame score. Some folks make money with a frame 6, others with a frame 1. It's all about what meet's the demands of your environment, and your market.

For us, frame 2-4 is fine. I don't want them any taller. Our frame 2-4 cows are 1000-1300lbs. We have some frame 1 cows and smaller that are 750-900lbs and wean 50% of their weight or more. These cows meet the needs of our environment.

As for the needs of the market, the fats from these cows finish on grass as 2 year olds weighing 1100-1300lbs. Works for us. If I wanted to make money with bigger cattle, I could if I put the work in to marketing them. However, the system we have going is the one that suits our goals the best.
 
te
High Plains said:
It's all about feed conversion in the feedlot. Well, it depends on who owns the cattle. The owner of the cattle cares about feed conversion whereas the custom feeder just prefers to keep the cattle in the hotel as long as possible. :lol: Most of the time it's the cattle that can grow to a fairly heavy weight that are going to win the feed conversion contest. Doesn't matter what breed or color, if they have some gas in the tank and a decent growth curve then they'll keep gaining at an efficient rate to a heavy weight. Today's average carcass weight for steers is 850 lbs., which converts to a 1,338 live weight at 63.5% dressed. Can't do that with little bitty cattle, so the smaller framed ones will have to go out at lighter weights before they plateau on feed conversion. Hybrid vigor and some percentile of continental cross on british breeds will achieve some decent conversion rates. Calf feds usually convert better than yearlings from start to finish because they start younger and smaller. Frame size isn't that big of a deal, but I wouldn't want to buy any frame fours to go on feed if I didn't have to.

By the way, yes, I've seen some straight Angus cattle convert in the low 5 to 1 type of conversion rates, but only the really good ones. They were framier cattle.

Not saying any of this is absolute gospel, but I'll bet this way when it's my money on the line.

Good discussion.

HP
Click to expand...
you bring up some good points feed conversion and finsh weight are the most important issues. From what i ve seen in the fat markets here any steer over 1400 lbs starts taking dock. Feed converison is usally what makes or breaks the feeder. We don't retain heifers so we are doing a terminal cross with simmy angus compsite cows crossed back with hereford bulls . I sold four steers to a neighbor last spring weighing 645 he slaughtered them at 1255 dec 21 . he kept records of feed fed which was 10,000 lbs and they converted right at 4.09 to 1 lb I was pretty impressed and they were only 16 months of age , but of course they were the top end also.
 

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