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Muddled meanderings from the outhouse!

fedup2

Well-known member
Some things that I have been thinking about. As always, I have more questions than answers. I am writing this as I am thinking about it so I hope it is taken in context. I am not going to proof read it so it stands the test of the ‘little stripped one’ who likes to slice and dice each word & pi$$ all over them.

As far as discussion, from a Canadian point of view. Many were hit hard and lost their farms- ranches. Some are still hanging on by a thread. Their biggest export market was cut off & they want it back. Many need it to survive. How is anyone going to convince them of anything on this forum when everything stated is a threat to their making a living for themselves and their families ?

As far as USA cattlemen, importing beef means they lose money. The USDA’s own study (BAS-welfare) shows that allowing culls from Canada will cost producers here millions of dollars. They claim it will be offset by gains to consumers. Now, why would anyone who make their living raising cattle willingly give up that kind of money if they could do anything to prevent it? “Sorry son, I would like to send you to college or buy you a new pair of shoes but we can’t afford it because I felt the people in another country could use the money”! Who would not fight for their share of the market?

So what is the answer? It has to be exports. If we gained our export markets back to previous levels, these Canadian cattle could be absorbed with a much smaller or very little loss. Even if Canada got the markets we lost, it would mean less cattle coming here. I am not talking the little trickle being thrown around here now but at least to previous levels.

Why wouldn’t we do everything possible to gain these markets back? There has been a discussion on selling hormone 'free'? beef to EU etc. It is what they want!
Some people want kosher beef. Who the hell are we to tell these people that slitting the throat of a cow facing a certain direction is stupid and fraudulent.
If Japan wants their beef tested for bse, termites, and any other damn thing, test them! If you are going to sell anything, you have to give the customer what they want! What is so hard to understand about that?

I have tried to simplify this to the point of probably losing the main thought. I know this post can be cut to ribbons but I am tired of every post deteriorating to the point of Canada or R-Calf being responsible for every problem on this planet!
How about just having a discussion & sharing your thoughts instead of your insults?
(I damn sure am not claiming innocence here!) :lol:
 

HAY MAKER

Well-known member
I have no problem with open fair trade,canadians have been taught selling their cattle to create "CAPTIVE SUPPLIES " is a perfectly accepttable way to do buisness.
You will find very little interest in correcting this in Canada,as a matter of fact,the majority of canadian cattle men probably never heard, or cared what the term :Captive supplies " meant..............till the border closed,I will lay you odds they know what it means now..............good luck
 

cowsense

Well-known member
Haymaker; Would you care to explain the "captive supply" marketing that Canadian's use. It doesn't have to be elaborate; just a simple overview will suffice.
 

Big Muddy rancher

Well-known member
HAY MAKER said:
I have no problem with open fair trade,canadians have been taught selling their cattle to create "CAPTIVE SUPPLIES " is a perfectly accepttable way to do buisness.
You will find very little interest in correcting this in Canada,as a matter of fact,the majority of canadian cattle men probably never heard, or cared what the term :Captive supplies " meant..............till the border closed,I will lay you odds they know what it means now..............good luck

Maybe we should close the TEXAS border. They had a BSE cow and they have more cattle then Canada. Probably have more "Captive supply" in Cactus feeders alone.
 

HAY MAKER

Well-known member
cowsense said:
Haymaker; Would you care to explain the "captive supply" marketing that Canadian's use. It doesn't have to be elaborate; just a simple overview will suffice.

What's your point ? There has been dozens of reliable posts proving that packers are putting downward pressure on the cash market with Canadian captive supplies.I have posted at least a dozen.
Why do you think there are several senators pushing for the Captive supply reform act,you know as well as everyone that posts/reads this site what packers do with canadian captive supplies to the cash market,what's your point in playing dumb ?.........................good luck
 

HAY MAKER

Well-known member
cowsense said:
Haymaker...........The only one playing dumb is you! You made the allegation NOW prove it or admit you're wrong.

Prove what ?that packers are using canadian captive supplies to pressure the cash market ?.............gimme a break
I have no problem with fair open trade,as a matter of fact,I have no problem subscribing to the North American herd theory, "BUT" this captive supply will not be tolerated by me and thousands like me...............good luck
PS Why dont you just admitt,you dont care one way or the other about Captive supplies ,and let it go at that.
 

HAY MAKER

Well-known member
Big Muddy rancher said:
HAY MAKER said:
I have no problem with open fair trade,canadians have been taught selling their cattle to create "CAPTIVE SUPPLIES " is a perfectly accepttable way to do buisness.
You will find very little interest in correcting this in Canada,as a matter of fact,the majority of canadian cattle men probably never heard, or cared what the term :Captive supplies " meant..............till the border closed,I will lay you odds they know what it means now..............good luck

Maybe we should close the TEXAS border. They had a BSE cow and they have more cattle then Canada.
Probably have more "Captive supply" in Cactus feeders alone.

Maybe,the differnce is we are doing something about it,are you ? You could'nt care less what happens to the *US* market.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Fedup,

We are in a global beef market as is Canada. That is the first thing you need to understand. Stopping Canadian imports is not going to make their beef disappear off the world market. From the standpoint of fat cattle, if we didn't take those cattle, JAPAN WOULD! We would ship less cattle to Japan because Canada would absorb that same portion of our export market. HENCE, YOU HAVE GAINED NOTHING BY STOPPING CANADIAN IMPORTS.

Now as far as the cull cow market, that beef is almost all going to ground beef and going to fast food services. Fast food service ground beef is priced so low that the little sliver of Canadian ground beef added to the system is irrelevant.

The whole problem with your entire premise is that you overstate the affect of Canadian imports on our market by not looking at the global beef market. That is an absolute fact.

Our competition is not Canadian beef and live cattle, our competition is poultry and pork. Why so much emphasis on Canadian imports when cheap poultry and pork will bring beef prices to it's knees? The average American cannot afford high priced beef if they can buy $.99 chicken. I don't have to look past my own immediate family to see how price drives meat purchasing decisions.

One of the absolute biggest problems this industry faces is a total misunderstanding for the affect of imports. R-CULT was taking credit for higher cattle prices in 2004 due to a closed Canadian border. In 2005, cattle prices went even higher. WHAT SHOULD THAT TELL AN R-CULTER ABOUT THE AFFECT OF CANADIAN IMPORTS ON OUR MARKETS????

Obviously there is a hell of a lot more playing on our markets than imports.

To take this to it's next ridiculous step, why shouldn't Nebraska ban the import of SD feeder calves. That would be just as stupid.

Now, let's look at this from another angle. We don't just get cattle from Canada, we also get energy, water, lumber and other resources. What you might lose SHORT TERM in one area, you gain in another.

This overexaggeration of the affect of Canadian imports on our market is a huge waste of energy when poultry and pork is working overtime to capture more of the consumers dollar.


Fed Up: "Now, why would anyone who make their living raising cattle willingly give up that kind of money if they could do anything to prevent it?"

Let's start with that statement right there. Just exactly how much money do you think you are giving up by importing Canadian beef and live cattle and just how much money do you think we would lose if Canada shipped those cattle directly to Japan absorbing an equal portion of our export market?

Isn't that dollar amount the heart of this issue?

You want to enter into a debate on the meat of your discussion points, there it is. In order to make a point about the affect Canadian imports have on our markets, YOU HAVE TO KNOW WHAT AFFECT THEY REALLY HAVE.


As far as selling the consumer what they want, what they want in regards to bse tested beef is bse free beef. If that's not what they are getting then it's marketing fraud, pure and simple and that's why it's not allowed.



~SH~
 

Bill

Well-known member
HAY MAKER said:
Big Muddy rancher said:
HAY MAKER said:
I have no problem with open fair trade,canadians have been taught selling their cattle to create "CAPTIVE SUPPLIES " is a perfectly accepttable way to do buisness.
You will find very little interest in correcting this in Canada,as a matter of fact,the majority of canadian cattle men probably never heard, or cared what the term :Captive supplies " meant..............till the border closed,I will lay you odds they know what it means now..............good luck

Maybe we should close the TEXAS border. They had a BSE cow and they have more cattle then Canada.
Probably have more "Captive supply" in Cactus feeders alone.

Maybe,the differnce is we are doing something about it,are you ? You could'nt care less what happens to the *US* market.


Pretty much everything we buy and sell as Canadians depends on the US market in every commodity. What a stupid hillbilly statement that shows exactly how little you know about trade.
 

HAY MAKER

Well-known member
Bill said:
HAY MAKER said:
Big Muddy rancher said:
Maybe we should close the TEXAS border. They had a BSE cow and they have more cattle then Canada.

Maybe,the differnce is we are doing something about it,are you ? You could'nt care less what happens to the *US* market.


Pretty much everything we buy and sell as Canadians depends on the US market in every commodity. What a stupid hillbilly statement that shows exactly how little you know about trade.

Bill you are way to dumb to be talking markets,I have heard the ole theory about .if we dont take canadian cattle japan will blah blah............I say good because you see,its this simple..........as goes canadian cattle ,so goes captive supply.............good luck
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Fed Up,

Here's something else for you to ponder, what impact do you believe all these hobby ranchers are having on our markets. The guys that buy up large ranches for recreational hunting and just to have a piece of the great outdoors only to subsidize their cattle losses with outside income?

Now don't take that as a WHINING comment, they have every right to run cattle. I'm simply stating the fact that they are not in the cattle business for the money but rather are subsidizing it with outside income. Hence, the supplies stay the same but the average rancher has to compete against those who ranch just for the lifestyle as opposed to ranching being their only source of income. I'd venture to guess that hobby ranching will have a far greater impact on our markets than Canadian imports.

Why doesn't anyone mention that?


If someone is willing to ranch at a loss just for the lifestyle and subsidize it with outside income, how long will those who rely on ranching for their sole income be able to compete?

Think about that while you are focused on Canadian imports.


~SH~
 

Bill

Well-known member
HAY MAKER said:
Bill said:
HAY MAKER said:
Maybe,the differnce is we are doing something about it,are you ? You could'nt care less what happens to the *US* market.


Pretty much everything we buy and sell as Canadians depends on the US market in every commodity. What a stupid hillbilly statement that shows exactly how little you know about trade.

Bill you are way to dumb to be talking markets,I have heard the ole theory about .if we dont take canadian cattle japan will blah blah............I say good because you see,its this simple..........as goes canadian cattle ,so goes captive supply.............good luck

What has that to do with what I wrote? Here let me break it out for you
Pretty much everything we buy and sell as Canadians depends on the US market in every commodity.
The price of lumber, wheat, corn, cars, fertilizer, oil, gas, beef, vegetables, interest rates, the value of the dollar (just to name a few thingsl) are all impacted by the US market. A couple of commodities that are immune for the most part to US influence are supply managed such as milk and poultry.

You obviously can't even understand that but still had to flap your lips with yet another Hillbilly statement. The R-Klowns strike again.
 

cowsense

Well-known member
Bill; I guess I have to agree with your hillbilly clown analogy; I've asked ole Haymaker to define Canadian Captive supply twice now and he either can't or is too busy trying to make another negative stab at Canada! I wonder if he even can find Canada on the map let alone know about our markets.
 

HAY MAKER

Well-known member
cowsense said:
Bill; I guess I have to agree with your hillbilly clown analogy; I've asked ole Haymaker to define Canadian Captive supply twice now and he either can't or is too busy trying to make another negative stab at Canada! I wonder if he even can find Canada on the map let alone know about our markets.

Yep,Im just an ole redneck hill billy,unlike you two self proclaimed maket analysts, I feel so damned priveledged that you two Einsteins would lower yourselves to bother with an ole redneck like me LOL..................good luck
PS cowcents,you need to quit finding someone to blame for your problems,I have said this at least a hundred times............I like canuclkeheads..............But your captive supply has got to go,one way or another.
 

mwj

Well-known member
HAY MAKER said:
cowsense said:
Bill; I guess I have to agree with your hillbilly clown analogy; I've asked ole Haymaker to define Canadian Captive supply twice now and he either can't or is too busy trying to make another negative stab at Canada! I wonder if he even can find Canada on the map let alone know about our markets.

Yep,Im just an ole redneck hill billy,unlike you two self proclaimed maket analysts, I feel so damned priveledged that you two Einsteins would lower yourselves to bother with an ole redneck like me LOL..................good luck
PS cowcents,you need to quit finding someone to blame for your problems,I have said this at least a hundred times............I like canuclkeheads..............But your captive supply has got to go,one way or another.

It sure is funny if someone else comes along with there pet theory there are some people on this board that would sure like to see a little bit of proof that could back there theory. And then there are some that would argue what ''went into the food chain'' really means :roll: If you guys from the deadly north would just find the capital button the hall monitors will leave you alone.
 

fedup2

Well-known member
I tried to emphasize in my post that it doesn’t matter if Japan gets Canadian beef or ours as long as they get it from one or the other! Right now, neither countries are exporting enough to make a difference anywhere. If you are pushing North American beef, why would it matter if Canada’s beef went to Japan? Every head that went there would not wind up here. My point was, Canada’s beef would not hurt us enough to worry about if our export markets were back to normal.

As far as overstating the affects of Canadian cull cattle, I didn’t overstate anything. I got that information from the USDA study. (the study and dollar amounts have been posted in another thread on this forum) The study says that producers will lose millions (you will have to look up the exact amount on the other thread.) but the loss will be offset by consumer savings. This was the government study that supports opening the border, not my study! (google BAS? welfare study. I can't remember the exact words)

You are reading things into my post that I never said. Where do you get the idea that I am ‘so focused’ on Canadian imports? I brought up this subject to have a reasonable discussion. I tried to point out both sides of this discussion. Again, the estimate of losses to US cattlemen from Canadian cull cattle were not my numbers! This is from the USDA.

I used Kosher beef as an example in my earlier post. They want the animals killed in a certain way & facing a certain direction. This is what they are paying for and what they want. You or I may feel that its not going to make a bit of difference in the meat or anything else. The point is that, its not what we think that matters. It is what the customer wants! The only fraud that would be involved here would be if the animal was killed in another manner and passed of as kosher.

The Japanese are among the leaders in world technology. They expressed a willingness to purchase beef that met certain criteria. One of these was that a certain test was to be done on this beef. One of our packers was willing to comply with their requests. They had the beef & built the facilities to give the customers exactly what they requested. They were denied the opportunity to do so. The only fraud that could have been initiated by this request was if some of these tests were skipped. This packer was ready and willing to give the customer exactly what they wanted. Again, our opinions don’t make one damn bit of difference. We all paid the price for this. Canadians and Americans. We need our export markets open! It does not matter whether they are open to the US or Canada as long as it is one or the other. Again, the beef that goes there does not come here!
 

Bill

Well-known member
fedup2 said:
I tried to emphasize in my post that it doesn’t matter if Japan gets Canadian beef or ours as long as they get it from one or the other! Right now, neither countries are exporting enough to make a difference anywhere. If you are pushing North American beef, why would it matter if Canada’s beef went to Japan? Every head that went there would not wind up here. My point was, Canada’s beef would not hurt us enough to worry about if our export markets were back to normal.

As far as overstating the affects of Canadian cull cattle, I didn’t overstate anything. I got that information from the USDA study. (the study and dollar amounts have been posted in another thread on this forum) The study says that producers will lose millions (you will have to look up the exact amount on the other thread.) but the loss will be offset by consumer savings. This was the government study that supports opening the border, not my study! (google BAS? welfare study. I can't remember the exact words)

You are reading things into my post that I never said. Where do you get the idea that I am ‘so focused’ on Canadian imports? I brought up this subject to have a reasonable discussion. I tried to point out both sides of this discussion. Again, the estimate of losses to US cattlemen from Canadian cull cattle were not my numbers! This is from the USDA.

I used Kosher beef as an example in my earlier post. They want the animals killed in a certain way & facing a certain direction. This is what they are paying for and what they want. You or I may feel that its not going to make a bit of difference in the meat or anything else. The point is that, its not what we think that matters. It is what the customer wants! The only fraud that would be involved here would be if the animal was killed in another manner and passed of as kosher.

The Japanese are among the leaders in world technology. They expressed a willingness to purchase beef that met certain criteria. One of these was that a certain test was to be done on this beef. One of our packers was willing to comply with their requests. They had the beef & built the facilities to give the customers exactly what they requested. They were denied the opportunity to do so. The only fraud that could have been initiated by this request was if some of these tests were skipped. This packer was ready and willing to give the customer exactly what they wanted. Again, our opinions don’t make one damn bit of difference. We all paid the price for this. Canadians and Americans. We need our export markets open! It does not matter whether they are open to the US or Canada as long as it is one or the other. Again, the beef that goes there does not come here!

You have made some good points Fedup. I have maintained that since May 2003 that we need to get beef OFF this continent and we need testing to allow the SMALLER players in the packing business to survive. This is especially important with new plants in Canada who do not have the war chest Cargill and Tyson do.
 
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