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New Design 878 daughters

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WB

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I was wondering about how well his duaghters are doing in the cowherd. Specifically how are there udders holding up and are they coming back pregnant every fall. And how are their attitudes after they calve.

I seriously considered using him several years ago but chickened for the reasons above.
 

la4angus

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A bulls offspring doesn't change for better or worse with his age. If he sires hard breeders as a 4 yr old he will sire hard breeders as an 8 yr old. If he sires nuts as a 4 yr old he'll sire nuts as an 8 yr old.
 

Angus Breeder

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WB, never used the bull, for some of the reasons you stated. If you are going to go through the extra work to AI one, spend the extra money and use 1407, he never misses. There are way to many 878 calves in the world. Takes a great one to be average in his sire group. 878's pedigree dosen't really excite me, as compared with the other ND bulls.
 

WB

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I didn't make myself very clear I guess. I considered usding him when he was a 3-yr. old and didn't because he wasn't proven to be a good cowmaker as he did;t have any daughters in production then.

There was a boatload of heifers in this area bred to him this year and I was wondering how his daughters were doing.


FWIW I took a more conservative approach and used a son of TC Advantage instead and am well pleased. Pedigree means little to me as I am a commercial producer.
 

foreman

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878 daughters make very good cows and so far so good on coming in preg. in the fall disposition very good. good milkers
 

DOC HARRIS

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Pedigree means little to me as I am a commercial producer.
How can I say this so that perhaps I can make myself understood??!!?? :shock: :???: - - - - - - - - -Hm-m-m- - - I really don't know! :roll: :roll: There have been literally hundred's of posts on these two Forums and - -I guess - -hundreds of thousands of articles, print-outs, reports, reviews, essays, treatises, written materials, catalog comments, textbooks, editorials - - - and on and on and on attempting to explain WHAT and WHY and HOW it is so important in the improvement of the breedstock of our beef cattle in making a larger income at the end of the day, or year, and hanging a more profitable carcass on the rail to KNOW what the GENETIC background is of our cattle! The only way to know that is through the ancestry of the bulls and cows in our herds. The way to know that ancestry is - - - - -PEDIGREES - - -whether they are Purebred - - or mongrels or scrubs. If they are alive - they have a genetic background through their parents. That genetic background is shown through pedigrees - whether they are written on a parchment scroll in India ink, or printed from a computer, or scribbled on the back of an envelope with a dull, stub of a lead pencil. To improve your herd you must know what your herd consists of. Registered or commercial - makes no difference. - - - -Another old saying: "You don't buy a pig in a poke!" Knowing what your Bulls genetic make-up is DOES mean more than a little to you! You don't improve your 'commercial' herd by buying a "Bull in a poke" either.

Am I spinning my wheels here??

DOC HARRIS+
 

WB

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Doc: It seems I have mispoken again. I will try this another way. I have very little prejudice as far as pedigriee goes and I am not after the next hottest thing. I am more interested in surefire improvement than taking chances. An example of this would everyone going wacko over the traveler 004 bull that is the current fad. My cows don't have registration papers and I don't sell bulls nor do my cows have epds.

Yes I do believe in epds but in the current Angus world there are a lot of what should I say flukes out there that are not as good as their epds say they are. An example of this is the bull called Rito 6I6. Some will disagree with me on this but it is the way I see it. :D
 

badroute

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I used 878 extensively one year, it seems I too got caught up in the hype and fancy full page ads. The thing I noticed was that his offspring seriously lacked capacity. I didn't even keep them heifer calves that fall that is how disappionted I was in them. Haven't used him since.
 

Red Robin

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WB said:
Doc: It seems I have mispoken again. I will try this another way. I have very little prejudice as far as pedigriee goes and I am not after the next hottest thing. I am more interested in surefire improvement than taking chances. An example of this would everyone going wacko over the traveler 004 bull that is the current fad. My cows don't have registration papers and I don't sell bulls nor do my cows have epds.

Yes I do believe in epds but in the current Angus world there are a lot of what should I say flukes out there that are not as good as their epds say they are. An example of this is the bull called Rito 6I6. Some will disagree with me on this but it is the way I see it. :D
I saw that 004 bull and I liked him phenotypically. He was a wee bit small but well balanced I thought. What do you not like about him?
 

Denny

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DOC HARRIS said:
Pedigree means little to me as I am a commercial producer.
How can I say this so that perhaps I can make myself understood??!!?? :shock: :???: - - - - - - - - -Hm-m-m- - - I really don't know! :roll: :roll: There have been literally hundred's of posts on these two Forums and - -I guess - -hundreds of thousands of articles, print-outs, reports, reviews, essays, treatises, written materials, catalog comments, textbooks, editorials - - - and on and on and on attempting to explain WHAT and WHY and HOW it is so important in the improvement of the breedstock of our beef cattle in making a larger income at the end of the day, or year, and hanging a more profitable carcass on the rail to KNOW what the GENETIC background is of our cattle! The only way to know that is through the ancestry of the bulls and cows in our herds. The way to know that ancestry is - - - - -PEDIGREES - - -whether they are Purebred - - or mongrels or scrubs. If they are alive - they have a genetic background through their parents. That genetic background is shown through pedigrees - whether they are written on a parchment scroll in India ink, or printed from a computer, or scribbled on the back of an envelope with a dull, stub of a lead pencil. To improve your herd you must know what your herd consists of. Registered or commercial - makes no difference. - - - -Another old saying: "You don't buy a pig in a poke!" Knowing what your Bulls genetic make-up is DOES mean more than a little to you! You don't improve your 'commercial' herd by buying a "Bull in a poke" either.

Am I spinning my wheels here??

DOC HARRIS+

Have you ever seen the movie (Monte Walsh)?

doc reminds me of the city guy sent out to run the Numbers as Doc is all about the numbers..


Thing about epd's they are only a tool all the numbers in the world wont make a pile of **** any thing more than that a pile.I have seen alot of bulls with terrific numbers that would'nt make a good steer........
 

Faster horses

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Red Robin: "OO4 is a wee bit too small."

I like the bull, however I think he is a "wee bit too big."

See what I mean? Ain't the cattle business grand?
We still can have our own opinions, different though they may be,
and still survive while doing our own thing. No one forcing us
to buy this bull or that cow or that tractor, etc.
 

DOC HARRIS

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Denny said:
DOC HARRIS said:
Pedigree means little to me as I am a commercial producer.
How can I say this so that perhaps I can make myself understood??!!?? :shock: :???: - - - - - - - - -Hm-m-m- - - I really don't know! :roll: :roll: There have been literally hundred's of posts on these two Forums and - -I guess - -hundreds of thousands of articles, print-outs, reports, reviews, essays, treatises, written materials, catalog comments, textbooks, editorials - - - and on and on and on attempting to explain WHAT and WHY and HOW it is so important in the improvement of the breedstock of our beef cattle in making a larger income at the end of the day, or year, and hanging a more profitable carcass on the rail to KNOW what the GENETIC background is of our cattle! The only way to know that is through the ancestry of the bulls and cows in our herds. The way to know that ancestry is - - - - -PEDIGREES - - -whether they are Purebred - - or mongrels or scrubs. If they are alive - they have a genetic background through their parents. That genetic background is shown through pedigrees - whether they are written on a parchment scroll in India ink, or printed from a computer, or scribbled on the back of an envelope with a dull, stub of a lead pencil. To improve your herd you must know what your herd consists of. Registered or commercial - makes no difference. - - - -Another old saying: "You don't buy a pig in a poke!" Knowing what your Bulls genetic make-up is DOES mean more than a little to you! You don't improve your 'commercial' herd by buying a "Bull in a poke" either.

Am I spinning my wheels here??

DOC HARRIS+

Have you ever seen the movie (Monte Walsh)?

doc reminds me of the city guy sent out to run the Numbers as Doc is all about the numbers..


Thing about epd's they are only a tool all the numbers in the world wont make a pile of s*** any thing more than that a pile.I have seen alot of bulls with terrific numbers that would'nt make a good steer........
Denny-(Deep breath! :roll: :roll: ) If you will read my post carefully you will note I DID NOT mumble even one word about numbers! Not - one - word! Read what I said - NOT what you THINK I said!

DOC HARRIS
 

foreman

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Maybe you should look at your cows more and not the bull if your cows are week in structure and capacity one bull won't fix the problem it will take more than 1 generation of calves to fix.60% of what the calf will do or be like is determined by the dam and 40% determined by the sire.
 

badroute

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I think the above post was meant for me. I can tell you that structure and capacity are not a problem in my herd. 878 simply did not mesh well with my cows. I have just plain ol purchased bulls that did a better job on my cows. Am I sayin that 878 is junk, no I am not at all. What I am sayin is that he did not work for me. I know he has worked for many many other producers as he has more registered offspring than any other bull in the Angus Association.
 

Red Robin

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Faster horses said:
Red Robin: "OO4 is a wee bit too small."

I like the bull, however I think he is a "wee bit too big."

See what I mean? Ain't the cattle business grand?
We still can have our own opinions, different though they may be,
and still survive while doing our own thing. No one forcing us
to buy this bull or that cow or that tractor, etc.
You have me curious now FH. Is he too big weight wise or height wise or both for you? In saying he was a wee bit small I mean in total mass excluding height. He is a 5.5 frame I would guess by looking at him. I had a 5.75 frame bull in the same barn but my bull was wider and deeper (by a small amount) I would guess him to weigh 2300#. I'm not a black breeder but did admire the 004 bull. There was another Boyd bred black bull there that was of a lesser quality in my estimation. (Hey Doc , I am excluding epd's in my evaluation) :D FH I am not saying I got it right. I am only commenting on how the bull would work for me. You are correct there is alot of difference when evaluating how a bull would work in different environments and management styles. That is one of the short comings of epd's . They are an average of how a particular bull will work nation wide. Actual weights and ratios from a herd managed similiar to mine and in an environment similiar to mine give me a more accurate picture of how a bull will work for me.
 

Faster horses

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I am concerned about ADDING frame size to our cows. In that regard I thought perhaps 004 would ADD. If he is a 5.5 that is what we are seeking. Somewhere I got that he was a 6.5. I want to maintain or drop back a bit, not make these cows any bigger than they already are. It is tough not to add size since Angus are getting bigger and bigger.

Kit Pharo calls it "Frame Creep" and it is here.
 

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