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Non-EXT Sire questions

Soapweed said:
RobertMac said:
FH said:
If you are looking to buy bulls by the EPD numbers, you won't like
Larry's cattle. The EPD's wouldn't impress anyone, but the cattle will.
I think that is why he made the statement, "no one wants my bulls, but
everyone wants to buy my cows."
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I doubt that anyone that wouldn't buy LL's bulls understands what he said!!!! And it had nothing to do with EPDs.

If a breed is bred exclusively for "Breed Character", wouldn't all EPD numbers be breed average?

How long has Angus been a registered breed? some 500 years?
The real question should be...why does the breed still have flawed udders?

What is the definition of a 'flawed' udder?
My first thought would be a sorry calf!
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Even if a cow can raise a great calf, if she requires extra labor each year to get her calf up and sucking, I would consider that a flawed udder also.
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I agree...a cow's job is to wean me a good calf. If she doesn't do that or I have to help her, she's culled. I judge a cow by what she produces.

It only took me a short time reading some of what LL has written to know his knowledge dwarfed mine...cattlemen like him don't get the respect they deserve.
 
Grassfarmer, here's the picture I remember of your cow. You even mentioned you felt that quarter was possibly spoiled. I've provided the link to that post as well. You asked for opinions, and I gave you mine, which hasn't changed. I do like her longevity, and she's certainly in great shape :D . I will also acknowledge you've posted pics of nice udders on heifers related to this cow, so maybe worrying about udder conformation isn't as critical as I once thought :? :???: :D . I haven't read this entire post to learn where udder influence mostly comes in from, I just know I dislike seeing bad bags, and cull for them :D .

I'm off to see if the neighbor's polled hereford bull has jumped in with my cows this morning. I'd like to just shoot it and pay $1000, but that's not very neighborly... or legal :wink: :D . They're pretty good neighbors, so hopefully they got him gathered yesterday. Gotta love bulls in the springtime!!!

223UNov082.jpg

The old cow on fall pasture last November, will be 23 years in April 09![/quote]

http://ranchers.net/forum/posting.php?mode=quote&p=346938
 
WyomingRancher said:
I haven't read this entire post to learn where udder influence mostly comes in from, I just know I dislike seeing bad bags, and cull for them
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We really never got very far in finding out where the "teat" & udder influence comes from. Paternal or Maternal side. Oops, I know I should not have said that.
 
Horseless said:
WyomingRancher said:
I haven't read this entire post to learn where udder influence mostly comes in from, I just know I dislike seeing bad bags, and cull for them
Click to expand...

We really never got very far in finding out where the "teat" & udder influence comes from. Paternal or Maternal side. Oops, I know I should not have said that.
Click to expand...

I don't know which side gives the most influence-- but from experience I do know that one generation of using the wrong "bull of the month" bulls can cause a wreck with teats and udders....
 
I have always heard udder quality is passed through the bull.
Now, does that mean if the dam has a bad udder, the bull
will pass that to his daughters???????

You are making me think too hard. :? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

An old cowboy rancher told me once, "a cow has to do three things.
Have a calf, save it and breed back."
 
Horseless: Hopefully Knabe will come back to share thoughts on this subject. My thinking is that a bulls daughters seem to have similar udders so would assume it is more sire influenced but I do know from experience that you don't want to keep daughters from poor uddered cows.
 
Udders are like any other trait-the more good you stack in there the better the chance of replication-I've had a couple bulls that were all over the board the made some bad udders good and vice versa-I expect a bull to at least maintain the structure of the cow he's used on-if he's a bull whose calves are all going to the feedlot then all bets are off-he's Dam can be a sloppy uddered pig for all it matters. It doesn't cost me any money to breed for better udders so why wouldn't I-you can have good deep long lived cows that are great uddered too.
 
RobertMac, yes I have kept several sons - to date not one has bred a daughter with an udder you could fault. Currently we are working on making her the centre piece of our linebreeding program. We have sons and daughters off two different bulls and will cross breed them to create a core group of our herd where we will retain all our herd bulls from (we will be able to perpetuate her blood at 50% for ever if we desire by linebreeding the way we are)

Horseless, sorry again for leading your thread astray - I posted the pictures for FH to look at and she never commented :roll: :lol: :lol:

Wyoming Rancher, Not really disputing your preferences - each to their own but the point I have tried to get people to think on is whether they are picking for functionality versus looks or fashion. As I said this cow has never needed assistance to calf or suckle in 20 calvings so you can't fault her for having a "bad bag". As far as I'm concerned there isn't a person on here who can claim they have a cow with a better udder - if they have keep her till she's older than my 23 year old, still calving and milking every year and I'll review the topic. :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
Grassfarmer, I guess I was thinking of what to say. So here goes:

I don't like the looks of her bag. But since she has achieved what you say she has--and I don't doubt it--then...

HOW CAN YOU ARGUE WITH SUCCESS???????????????

I guess I'd use her genetics as much as possible. Which it sounds like
you are going to do. I'm a fan of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

We have a 16 year old cow with a really good bag. Will she make it to 23? I don't tnink so.
 
IMG_0487.jpg


Here is the udder that bull throws-when I bought him his Dam, Granddam and great granddam were all still in production and were good sound uddered cow. If anybodsy was interested I can collect some exportable semen next trip to the stud.
 
NR, do you feel this heifer is just a touch short of milk to keep her calf to it's growth potential? I am not criticizing, just asking to clarify something I have felt for a lot of years.
That is...if a heifer milks too heavy either her bag goes to h377 early in life or she will be empty the first year of lactation.

If a heifer is just a little short of milk, she will breed back year after year and by the third lactation her calf will be in the average of the bunch at weaning. (No matter what your individual herd ave. may be.) While this type of cow may never wean your "best calf" they will wean lots of average ones, winter well, and stay in the herd a long time.
 
Not at all-it's not how large the udder is but how quickly it fills up again. I don't really bother with weaning weights as they are irrelevant to my operation but I'm pretty sure her calf will be thrifty and healthy in the fall. She's a four year old by the way lol. I don't have very big cows but I sell finished cattle in that 12-1300 pound range every year. As long as a calf isn't stunted by a lack of milk he'll reach his full growth potential somewhere in the production curve.
 
Here are some photos related to my old Luing cow with the "bad" udder.
A 7 year old purebred daughter, calved 10 days.
DSC02820.jpg

Closer up.
DSC02819.jpg

Two generations of old cow blood in this one. (heifer is off a son of the old cow, cow's dam was off a different son of said old cow.) This is a grade cow - base cow was a small red Angus commercial with a pendulous udder.
7Tudder.jpg

Finally a picture of a son - the camera shy guy. Frame score 4, rising 3 year old. Will have 50+ calves on the ground off him this spring although he was a small rascal when he went with the cows last year.
DSC02826.jpg
 
That's a good looking bull.

In the picture of the close up of the udder, it looks like the teats on
this side point backwards. We have a friend who is culling all cows
with teats like that. So everyone kind of has their own idea. Our neighbor didn't know a cow's bag should attach further up her belly and the teats should be even across. :?

There is an article in the Beef Today talking about udders and scoring
them. I haven't read it yet--just came today.

NR, I hadn't heard that about how fast the bag fills up. Interesting.
I did know that some cows give richer milk than others, so the bag size isn't really the true indication of a small calf vs. a large one at weaning time.
 

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