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Obama Comes Out Against Concealed Carry

Larrry

Well-known member
There is not one parent who has not thought what they would do when presented with a situation like I said. I did not say anything inflamatory about women or kids. Just a situation. I can see only one reason why someone would attack me over that question. They are afraid to answer the question.
 

aplusmnt

Well-known member
Mrs.Greg said:
:cry2: :cry2: We were having such a nice talk about Sam Elliot,then this....back to the topic :roll: :D

To many men on here, to sustain a conversation like that we need to be talking about Heather Locklear, Shaina Twain or maybe Rachael Welch for the older gents. :lol:
 

nonothing

Well-known member
Larrry said:
You stop at the gas and gutbomb store. A man starts to harass your kids and threatens them. You have maybe five seconds to decide what to do. Do You go inside and call the police. Or do you pull out your 9mm. Five seconds. What do you choose. Are you a level headed person and let your children be harmed or are you a loving parent that protects your kids? You choose.

You drop your car of to be detailed by the local highschool kids doing a fund raiser...your snub nose 357 is concealed under the seat...you forgot to tell the highchool kids it is there.....one pulls it out says "look at this cool gun" then it accidently goes off as he holds onto it...shooting a fellow student in the chest...five seconds a life is taken....Are you a level headed person who cares about others? Or are you ok with your gun taking an inocent life...you choose.......
 

nonothing

Well-known member
Larrry said:
There is not one parent who has not thought what they would do when presented with a situation like I said. I did not say anything inflamatory about women or kids. Just a situation. I can see only one reason why someone would attack me over that question. They are afraid to answer the question.

No you made it very clear that one way was a parent who loved thier child and the other parent didnt care....Your an azz whole and you dont even know it....Not every one lives in places where children are held at gun point while filling up on gas...maybe what you should be more concerned with is punishing these bastards that attack others so they never get out of jail.....why not do something for your family and make your community safe and make moves to rid society of those people that you carry around a gun for.....
 

Larrry

Well-known member
Guns save more lives than they take; prevent more injuries than they inflict
* Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year -- or about 6,850 times a day.1 This means that each year, firearms are used more than 60 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.2

* Of the 2.5 million self-defense cases, as many as 200,000 are by women defending themselves against sexual abuse.3

* Citizens shoot and kill at least twice as many criminals as police do every year (1,527 to 606).4 And readers of Newsweek learned in 1993 that "only 2 percent of civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal. The "error rate" for the police, however, was 11 percent, more than five times as high."5

* Of the 2.5 million times citizens use their guns to defend themselves every year, the overwhelming majority merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers. Less than 8% of the time, a citizen will kill or wound his/her attacker.6

* Handguns are the weapon of choice for self-defense. Citizens use handguns to protect themselves over 1.9 million times a year.7 Many of these self-defense handguns could be labeled as "Saturday Night Specials."



1. Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense With a Gun," 86 The Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, Northwestern University School of Law, 1 (Fall 1995):164.
Dr. Kleck is a professor in the school of criminology and criminal justice at Florida State University in Tallahassee. He has researched extensively and published several essays on the gun control issue. His book, Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America, has become a widely cited source in the gun control debate. In fact, this book earned Dr. Kleck the prestigious American Society of Criminology Michael J. Hindelang award for 1993. This award is given for the book published in the past two to three years that makes the most outstanding contribution to criminology.
Even those who don't like the conclusions Dr. Kleck reaches, cannot argue with his impeccable research and methodology. In "A Tribute to a View I Have Opposed," Marvin E. Wolfgang writes that, "What troubles me is the article by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz. The reason I am troubled is that they have provided an almost clear-cut case of methodologically sound research in support of something I have theoretically opposed for years, namely, the use of a gun in defense against a criminal perpetrator. . . . I have to admit my admiration for the care and caution expressed in this article and this research. Can it be true that about two million instances occur each year in which a gun was used as a defensive measure against crime? It is hard to believe. Yet, it is hard to challenge the data collected. We do not have contrary evidence." Wolfgang, "A Tribute to a View I Have Opposed," The Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, at 188.
Wolfgang says there is no "contrary evidence." Indeed, there are more than a dozen national polls-- one of which was conducted by The Los Angeles Times-- that have found figures comparable to the Kleck-Gertz study. Even the Clinton Justice Department (through the National Institute of Justice) found there were as many as 1.5 million defensive users of firearms every year. See National Institute of Justice, "Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms," Research in Brief (May 1997).
As for Dr. Kleck, readers of his materials may be interested to know that he is a member of the ACLU, Amnesty International USA, and Common Cause. He is not and has never been a member of or contributor to any advocacy group on either side of the gun control debate.
2. According to the National Safety Council, the total number of gun deaths (by accidents, suicides and homicides) account for less than 40,000 deaths per year. See Accident Facts, published yearly by the National Safety Council, Itasca, Illinois.
3. Kleck and Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime," at 185.
4. Kleck, Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America, (1991):111-116, 148.
5. George F. Will, "Are We a Nation of Cowards'?," Newsweek (15 November 1993):93.
6. Kleck and Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime," at 173, 185.
7. Id. at 164, 185.
 

nonothing

Well-known member
Larrry said:
I know where my gun is at all times. Your scenario doesn't hold water.

I never have or know anyone who had their children held at gun point at a gas station with only five seconds to live.....So i guess your scenario doesnt hold water....
 

quickdraw

Well-known member
nonothing said:
Larrry said:
There is not one parent who has not thought what they would do when presented with a situation like I said. I did not say anything inflamatory about women or kids. Just a situation. I can see only one reason why someone would attack me over that question. They are afraid to answer the question.

No you made it very clear that one way was a parent who loved thier child and the other parent didnt care....Your an azz whole and you dont even know it....Not every one lives in places where children are held at gun point while filling up on gas...maybe what you should be more concerned with is punishing these bastards that attack others so they never get out of jail.....why not do something for your family and make your community safe and make moves to rid society of those people that you carry around a gun for.....

I do I carry :D
 

Larrry

Well-known member
I guess you don't read the newspapers. It happens numerous times.
There are convenience store murders frequently.

I thought your litle twist was rather clever. It did show how you were trying to overdramatize what I said. Could you show me where I said you had only five seconds to live.

Try reading my post above.
 

Larrry

Well-known member
No you made it very clear that one way was a parent who loved thier child and the other parent didnt care....Your an azz whole and you dont even know it....Not every one lives in places where children are held at gun point while filling up on gas

Show me a parent that would stand by why their kid was attacked. Cattle Army would not stand by and we all know she would fight with a vengeance. Why not have the balance be in your favor. As I said before would you please read the paper and notice of how many times innocent people are attacked daily. Of course we could all hide our head in the sand and hope it never happens to us.
 

nonothing

Well-known member
Larrry said:
I guess you don't read the newspapers. It happens numerous times.
There are convenience store murders frequently.

I thought your litle twist was rather clever. It did show how you were trying to overdramatize what I said. Could you show me where I said you had only five seconds to live.

Try reading my post above.

I stand corrected you used the word harmed not to live...It was not a little twist it was just as hypothetical as yours...I do not care if you own a gun I just think by letting people conceal it,that you put trust in people that cannot be trusted,even if they think they are good people...
 

Larrry

Well-known member
You are fighting a losing battle. Your arguments are already falsified.

Concealed carry laws help reduce crime
* One-half million self-defense uses. Every year, as many as one-half million citizens defend themselves with a firearm away from home.8

* Florida. In the ten years following the passage of Florida's concealed carry law in 1987, there were 478,248 people who received permits to carry firearms.9 FBI reports show that the homicide rate in Florida, which in 1987 was much higher than the national average, fell 39% during that 10-year period. The Florida rate is now far below the national average.10

* Do firearms carry laws result in chaos? No. Consider the case of Florida. A citizen in the Sunshine State is almost twice as likely to be attacked by an alligator than to be assaulted by a concealed carry holder. During the first ten years that the Florida law was in effect, alligator attacks outpaced the number of crimes committed by carry holders by a 146 to 88 margin.11

* Nationwide. A comprehensive national study determined in 1996 that violent crime fell after states made it legal to carry concealed firearms. The results of the study showed:

* States which passed concealed carry laws reduced their murder rate by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%;12 and
* If those states not having concealed carry laws had adopted such laws in 1992, then approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and over 11,000 robberies would have been avoided yearly.13




8. Dr. Gary Kleck, interview with J. Neil Schulman, "Q and A: Guns, crime and self-defense," The Orange County Register, 19 September 1993. In the interview with Schulman, Dr. Kleck reports on findings from a national survey which he and Dr. Marc Gertz conducted in Spring, 1993 -- a survey which findings were reported in Kleck and Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime."
9. Memo by Sandra B. Mortham, Secretary of State, Florida Department of State, Concealed Weapons/Firearms License Statistical Report (10/1/87-12/31/97).
10. Compare Federal Bureau of Investigation, "Crime in the United States," Uniform Crime Reports, (1988): 7, 53; and FBI, (1998):15, 77.
11. From 1988 through 1997, there were 146 documented alligator attacks on human beings in Florida. This does not include any unreported encounters. Interview with Mark Trainor, Public Information Specialist for the Office of Information Services, Florida Game and Fresh Water Fish Commission, Tallahassee, Florida (14 December 1998). By contrast, there were only 88 CCW holders who used their guns during the same period to commit a crime. See supra note 9.
12. One of the authors of the University of Chicago study reported on the study's findings in John R. Lott, Jr., "More Guns, Less Violent Crime," The Wall Street Journal (28 August 1996). See also supra note 17.
13. John R. Lott, Jr. and David B. Mustard, "Crime, Deterrence, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns," University of Chicago, (15 August 1996).
 

nonothing

Well-known member
Larrry said:
No you made it very clear that one way was a parent who loved thier child and the other parent didnt care....Your an azz whole and you dont even know it....Not every one lives in places where children are held at gun point while filling up on gas

Show me a parent that would stand by why their kid was attacked. Cattle Army would not stand by and we all know she would fight with a vengeance. Why not have the balance be in your favor. As I said before would you please read the paper and notice of how many times innocent people are attacked daily. Of course we could all hide our head in the sand and hope it never happens to us.

If what you say is true then the answer is not gun ownership,as guns have been around forever...You really should be attacking your goverment with petetions and anyother means at your disposal to fix the problem of crime..Your hiding your head in the sand .You have not mentioned anything but a gun as your answer..Maybe you need to be more proactive in your appoarch.....Maybe you need to devise ways to eliminate or detere crime before it happens....maybe criminals should be in jail longer.maybe the money spent on the rebuilding of Iraq could be spent on ways to motivate people to be more then drug addicts or two bit criminals in your own country....maybe its time to put to death all those who are convicted of selling drugs..why not make it a place where guns are not a necessity.why not work towards a place where being good means you can live with out being scared all the time...
 

Mike

Well-known member
I do not care if you own a gun I just think by letting people conceal it,that you put trust in people that cannot be trusted,even if they think they are good people...

Concealment is a whole point within itself...................

When a perpetrator does not know who is "packing" in a room full of people, he will be less apt to carry out an offense.

Even if he thinks that only one person in that room may be "packing".

"Concealed carry" could be protecting, or has protected you without your knowledge.

Concealment is also a way of showing respect for those that feel uncomfortable around guns.
 

nonothing

Well-known member
Mike If what you say is true then why would a gunman even wait to find out...they may just shoot everyone then,that way packing or not,the point becomes moot...
 

Mike

Well-known member
nonothing said:
Mike If what you say is true then why would a gunman even wait to find out...they may just shoot everyone then,that way packing or not,the point becomes moot...

The guy in the subway that killed all those people in New York walked down the aisle shooting people one by one, he even reloaded twice..........because he knew that no one else on that train had a gun.

It was against the law you know. :roll: :roll: :roll:

You're not making a lot of sense here.
 

nonothing

Well-known member
Have your guns,enjoy your guns and do with them whatever it is you do with them.....It is your right to them.....there is no sense arguing about it ....All I can say is this.....I feel bad that you all live in a world where you so afraid of eachother that you have to hide guns just to protect yourselfs from harm...I really do feel sad for people living in fear of eachother to the point of arming themselves...It should not have to be that way...Whats wrong with people today?
 

Mike

Well-known member
nonothing said:
Have your guns,enjoy your guns and do with them whatever it is you do with them.....It is your right to them.....there is no sense arguing about it ....All I can say is this.....I feel bad that you all live in a world where you so afraid of eachother that you have to hide guns just to protect yourselfs from harm...I really do feel sad for people living in fear of eachother to the point of arming themselves...It should not have to be that way...Whats wrong with people today?

I'd sure like to take you into a couple of neighborhoods here and drop you off unprotected. :lol: You'd learn quick.

Who's afraid? I'm just putting myself on a par scale with the little thugs around here.

You're right, it should not have to be that way, but it is........
 

aplusmnt

Well-known member
Larrry said:
You are fighting a losing battle. Your arguments are already falsified.

knownothing... does not care about the facts! He is more interested in what he thinks could hypothetically happen instead of what History has proven to be true. He is the scariest type, he would support our rights being taken away with out regards for the facts, all based on what he thinks could or might happen.
 

aplusmnt

Well-known member
nonothing said:
If what you say is true then the answer is not gun ownership,as guns have been around forever...You really should be attacking your goverment with petetions and anyother means at your disposal to fix the problem of crime..

There you go wanting the government to solve everything for you, typical Liberal response! It comes back to personal responsibility, I will take that responsibility to protect my family and never will allow that to be taken away.

Government only screws things up they are not in business of fixing things. You Libs need to quit relying on Government for everything and take some personal responsibility.
 

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