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Obamas Cap And Trade

woranch

Well-known member
A study from the George C. Marshall Institute tries to quantify the costs of a cap-and-trade plan to reduce carbon emissions. They're not small, to say the least: And although this study uses 2008 as a baseline, the Obama plan would hit in 2012 and could come in combo with a hike in investment and incomes taxes for wealthier Americans and the creation of a special healthcare tax:

The authors find that the constraints posed by the Lieberman-Warner cap-and-trade approach is equivalent to a constant (in percentage terms) consumption decrease of about 1% each year, continuing to 2050. Put another way, the cap-and-trade approach is the equivalent of a permanent tax increase for the average American household, which was estimated to be $1,100 in 2008, would rise to $1,437 by 2015, to $1,979 in 2030, and $2,979 in 2050.Reviewing a host of recent studies, Buckley and Mityakov show that estimates of job losses attributable to cap-and-trade range in the hundreds of thousands. The price for energy paid by the American consumer also will rise. The studies reviewed showed electricity prices jumping 5-15% by 2015, natural gas prices up 12-50% by 2015, and gasoline prices up 9-145% by 2015. As an illustration, gasoline would suffer a 16 cent price increase per gallon at the low end of the estimates to a $2.58 penalty at the high end (using the January 2009 reported retail price of $1.78 per gallon).
 

badaxemoo

Well-known member
woranch said:
A study from the George C. Marshall Institute tries to quantify the costs of a cap-and-trade plan to reduce carbon emissions. They're not small, to say the least: And although this study uses 2008 as a baseline, the Obama plan would hit in 2012 and could come in combo with a hike in investment and incomes taxes for wealthier Americans and the creation of a special healthcare tax:

The authors find that the constraints posed by the Lieberman-Warner cap-and-trade approach is equivalent to a constant (in percentage terms) consumption decrease of about 1% each year, continuing to 2050. Put another way, the cap-and-trade approach is the equivalent of a permanent tax increase for the average American household, which was estimated to be $1,100 in 2008, would rise to $1,437 by 2015, to $1,979 in 2030, and $2,979 in 2050.Reviewing a host of recent studies, Buckley and Mityakov show that estimates of job losses attributable to cap-and-trade range in the hundreds of thousands. The price for energy paid by the American consumer also will rise. The studies reviewed showed electricity prices jumping 5-15% by 2015, natural gas prices up 12-50% by 2015, and gasoline prices up 9-145% by 2015. As an illustration, gasoline would suffer a 16 cent price increase per gallon at the low end of the estimates to a $2.58 penalty at the high end (using the January 2009 reported retail price of $1.78 per gallon).

It's pay me now or pay me later.

I'd rather bear the tax increase now than have my children and grandchildren bear the cost.
 

Bullhauler

Well-known member
badaxemoo said:
woranch said:
A study from the George C. Marshall Institute tries to quantify the costs of a cap-and-trade plan to reduce carbon emissions. They're not small, to say the least: And although this study uses 2008 as a baseline, the Obama plan would hit in 2012 and could come in combo with a hike in investment and incomes taxes for wealthier Americans and the creation of a special healthcare tax:

The authors find that the constraints posed by the Lieberman-Warner cap-and-trade approach is equivalent to a constant (in percentage terms) consumption decrease of about 1% each year, continuing to 2050. Put another way, the cap-and-trade approach is the equivalent of a permanent tax increase for the average American household, which was estimated to be $1,100 in 2008, would rise to $1,437 by 2015, to $1,979 in 2030, and $2,979 in 2050.Reviewing a host of recent studies, Buckley and Mityakov show that estimates of job losses attributable to cap-and-trade range in the hundreds of thousands. The price for energy paid by the American consumer also will rise. The studies reviewed showed electricity prices jumping 5-15% by 2015, natural gas prices up 12-50% by 2015, and gasoline prices up 9-145% by 2015. As an illustration, gasoline would suffer a 16 cent price increase per gallon at the low end of the estimates to a $2.58 penalty at the high end (using the January 2009 reported retail price of $1.78 per gallon).

It's pay me now or pay me later.

I'd rather bear the tax increase now than have my children and grandchildren bear the cost.

Yep can you imagine how low taxes could be today if there was no interest to pay on the national debt.
 

woranch

Well-known member
badaxemoo said:
woranch said:
A study from the George C. Marshall Institute tries to quantify the costs of a cap-and-trade plan to reduce carbon emissions. They're not small, to say the least: And although this study uses 2008 as a baseline, the Obama plan would hit in 2012 and could come in combo with a hike in investment and incomes taxes for wealthier Americans and the creation of a special healthcare tax:

The authors find that the constraints posed by the Lieberman-Warner cap-and-trade approach is equivalent to a constant (in percentage terms) consumption decrease of about 1% each year, continuing to 2050. Put another way, the cap-and-trade approach is the equivalent of a permanent tax increase for the average American household, which was estimated to be $1,100 in 2008, would rise to $1,437 by 2015, to $1,979 in 2030, and $2,979 in 2050.Reviewing a host of recent studies, Buckley and Mityakov show that estimates of job losses attributable to cap-and-trade range in the hundreds of thousands. The price for energy paid by the American consumer also will rise. The studies reviewed showed electricity prices jumping 5-15% by 2015, natural gas prices up 12-50% by 2015, and gasoline prices up 9-145% by 2015. As an illustration, gasoline would suffer a 16 cent price increase per gallon at the low end of the estimates to a $2.58 penalty at the high end (using the January 2009 reported retail price of $1.78 per gallon).

It's pay me now or pay me later.

I'd rather bear the tax increase now than have my children and grandchildren bear the cost.


Your going to pay now and your kids are going to pay later .
 

badaxemoo

Well-known member
woranch said:
badaxemoo said:

It's pay me now or pay me later.

I'd rather bear the tax increase now than have my children and grandchildren bear the cost.


Your going to pay now and your kids are going to pay later .

You're right.

But I'm talking about environmental costs.

Global warming is likely to continue no matter what we do, but the effects might be mitigated if we clean up our act now.

I think it is our responsiblity as the current stewards of the planet to make sure our children bear as little of the brunt of our activities as possible.
 

aplusmnt

Well-known member
badaxemoo said:
But I'm talking about environmental costs.

Global warming is likely to continue no matter what we do, but the effects might be mitigated if we clean up our act now.

I think it is our responsiblity as the current stewards of the planet to make sure our children bear as little of the brunt of our activities as possible.

You are correct, but we have to be careful!!!!! Remember how that Ice Age problem turned out? We fought it so hard for the sake of our children that 30 years later we now have Global Warming! I just hope we do not make the mistake of fighting global warming so aggressive that we go back to the threat of another Ice Age. :wink: :roll:
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Cap and Trade could be a major income maker for Farmers/ranchers in the future....I really haven't looked into it too far- because of the small number of trading groups currently involved-- but do know one rancher that has been bringing in checks for the last few years...

But I suppose that makes him a "greeny weeny" to everyone on here-eh :wink:
 

Big Muddy rancher

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
Cap and Trade could be a major income maker for Farmers/ranchers in the future....I really haven't looked into it too far- because of the small number of trading groups currently involved-- but do know one rancher that has been bringing in checks for the last few years...

But I suppose that makes him a "greeny weeny" to everyone on here-eh :wink:

The ones making the big money will be the traders. You know at the Chicago Climate Exchange, that one in Obama's home town. Ben Stien says it's run by a buddy of the Big O's.

Lots of things that ranchers do should be rewarded as benefits to the public good. I doubt that we will live to see much of it.

Would it not make better sense to reward the companies that lower their carbon emissions with a better tax rate making the other companies less competitive. An actual lessing of carbon then paying someone so that you can still pollute.
 

Tam

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
Cap and Trade could be a major income maker for Farmers/ranchers in the future....I really haven't looked into it too far- because of the small number of trading groups currently involved-- but do know one rancher that has been bringing in checks for the last few years...

But I suppose that makes him a "greeny weeny" to everyone on here-eh :wink:

Will it benefit the ranchers Oldtimer when the wackos are sprewing this

Livestock ranching a leading contributor to CO2 emissions, global warming
Tuesday, February 13, 2007
by: David Gutierrez, staff writer
NaturalNews

According to a United Nations report published last month, raising animals for food is one of the single biggest causes of global warming, in addition to land degradation and pollution of air and water.

"The livestock sector emerges as one of the top two or three most significant contributors to the most serious environmental problems, at every scale," said "Livestock’s Long Shadow," the report by the U.N. Food and Agriculture Organization.

According to the report, nearly one-fifth of all global warming-causing emissions come from animal agriculture, more than the cumulative impact of all the transportation in the world. This effect occurs because animal wastes and digestion produce methane and nitrous oxide gas, which have 23 and 296 times the heat-trapping effect of carbon dioxide, respectively. Animal agriculture produces 65 percent of the world's nitrous oxide from human-related sources and 37 percent of the methane.

The detrimental effects of animal agriculture on the world's climate are not limited to greenhouse gas emissions. Thirty percent of the world's total land surface is devoted to animal agriculture, and 70 percent of its arable land. The livestock industry is also a leading cause of deforestation; 70 percent of former Amazon Rainforest lands are currently devoted to animal agriculture. Because trees and other plants remove greenhouse gases from the atmosphere, this deforestation exacerbates the pace of global warming.

"The frequent consumption of meat is not compatible with environmental stewardship," said Mike Adams, a consumer health advocate and author of "How to End Cruelty to People, Animals and Nature, and Create a World without War and Environmental Destruction."

"Planet Earth will simply not support the mass consumption of meat. ... If we wish to protect our planet and live in an environmentally sustainable way, we must teach people how to emphasize plant-based diets, which are also far healthier for their bodies than meat-based diets," he said.

Sounds good for the livestock industry doesn't it? And remember these are the types that Obama seems to listen to. :wink:
 

badaxemoo

Well-known member
Tam said:
Oldtimer said:
Cap and Trade could be a major income maker for Farmers/ranchers in the future....I really haven't looked into it too far- because of the small number of trading groups currently involved-- but do know one rancher that has been bringing in checks for the last few years...

But I suppose that makes him a "greeny weeny" to everyone on here-eh :wink:

Will it benefit the ranchers Oldtimer when the wackos are sprewing this

Livestock ranching a leading contributor to CO2 emissions, global warming
Tuesday, February 13, 2007
by: David Gutierrez, staff writer
NaturalNews

According to a United Nations report published last month, raising animals for food is one of the single biggest causes of global warming, in addition to land degradation and pollution of air and water.

"The livestock sector emerges as one of the top two or three most significant contributors to the most serious environmental problems, at every scale," said "Livestock’s Long Shadow," the report by the U.N. Food and Agriculture Organization.

According to the report, nearly one-fifth of all global warming-causing emissions come from animal agriculture, more than the cumulative impact of all the transportation in the world. This effect occurs because animal wastes and digestion produce methane and nitrous oxide gas, which have 23 and 296 times the heat-trapping effect of carbon dioxide, respectively. Animal agriculture produces 65 percent of the world's nitrous oxide from human-related sources and 37 percent of the methane.

The detrimental effects of animal agriculture on the world's climate are not limited to greenhouse gas emissions. Thirty percent of the world's total land surface is devoted to animal agriculture, and 70 percent of its arable land. The livestock industry is also a leading cause of deforestation; 70 percent of former Amazon Rainforest lands are currently devoted to animal agriculture. Because trees and other plants remove greenhouse gases from the atmosphere, this deforestation exacerbates the pace of global warming.

"The frequent consumption of meat is not compatible with environmental stewardship," said Mike Adams, a consumer health advocate and author of "How to End Cruelty to People, Animals and Nature, and Create a World without War and Environmental Destruction."

"Planet Earth will simply not support the mass consumption of meat. ... If we wish to protect our planet and live in an environmentally sustainable way, we must teach people how to emphasize plant-based diets, which are also far healthier for their bodies than meat-based diets," he said.

Sounds good for the livestock industry doesn't it? And remember these are the types that Obama seems to listen to. :wink:

If I had to weight what is good for the livestock industry - particularly the more industrialized sector of it - against what is good for the future of the environment, it wouldn't be a hard choice.

Nor should it be for any thinking person, even if they happen to run cattle.
 

Mike

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
Cap and Trade could be a major income maker for Farmers/ranchers in the future....I really haven't looked into it too far- because of the small number of trading groups currently involved-- but do know one rancher that has been bringing in checks for the last few years...

But I suppose that makes him a "greeny weeny" to everyone on here-eh :wink:

Could you give us this guys name so we can contact him?

I betcha won't. Cause I say you're lying........AGAIN!!!!!!! :lol:
 

SMN Herf

Well-known member
Forget all the theory and who it helps and how much it will raise energy prices. Will the program really achieve its desired goals?

Can anyone show me proof that it will actually work????????
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
guest1 said:
Mike said:
Oldtimer said:
Cap and Trade could be a major income maker for Farmers/ranchers in the future....I really haven't looked into it too far- because of the small number of trading groups currently involved-- but do know one rancher that has been bringing in checks for the last few years...

But I suppose that makes him a "greeny weeny" to everyone on here-eh :wink:

Could you give us this guys name so we can contact him?

I betcha won't. Cause I say you're lying........AGAIN!!!!!!! :lol:

It's called cabon credits and it's traded on the merc, you can get it for grassland and for no-till land. Certain land has a higher credit value than others. You could call him a liar or you could look it up and be proven wrong, i'll wager you do the former.

Mike- I sent you a PM because I didn't want putting the name and number on the board...Like I said he may not be at home til tonight- because I know he had the caddy shined up and was headed to Valier yesterday for the Apex Angus sale....

And he is a Lurker- anonymous poster on here....
 

SMN Herf

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
guest1 said:
Mike said:
Could you give us this guys name so we can contact him?

I betcha won't. Cause I say you're lying........AGAIN!!!!!!! :lol:

It's called cabon credits and it's traded on the merc, you can get it for grassland and for no-till land. Certain land has a higher credit value than others. You could call him a liar or you could look it up and be proven wrong, i'll wager you do the former.

Mike- I sent you a PM because I didn't want putting the name and number on the board...Like I said he may not be at home til tonight- because I know he had the caddy shined up and was headed to Valier yesterday for the Apex Angus sale....

And he is a Lurker- anonymous poster on here....

OT is right. Farmers Union, Farm Bureau and there are several other private groups that have been putting together large chunks of land in order to sell the carbon credit rights too. I have looked into it but I am kind of against the idea of it. It doesn't add anything to the country. It doesn't create wealth. It is just a gas and paper trade.
 

Big Muddy rancher

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
guest1 said:
Mike said:
Could you give us this guys name so we can contact him?

I betcha won't. Cause I say you're lying........AGAIN!!!!!!! :lol:

It's called cabon credits and it's traded on the merc, you can get it for grassland and for no-till land. Certain land has a higher credit value than others. You could call him a liar or you could look it up and be proven wrong, i'll wager you do the former.

Mike- I sent you a PM because I didn't want putting the name and number on the board...Like I said he may not be at home til tonight- because I know he had the caddy shined up and was headed to Valier yesterday for the Apex Angus sale....

And he is a Lurker- anonymous poster on here....

They aren't traded on the Merc it's the Climate exchange. The NFU has a program, In ND I think they pulled naive prairie from it . In Sask they were almost promoting of breaking native grass to zero till or seed back to qualify. That does nothing for Bio-diversity.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
SMN Herf said:
Oldtimer said:
guest1 said:
It's called cabon credits and it's traded on the merc, you can get it for grassland and for no-till land. Certain land has a higher credit value than others. You could call him a liar or you could look it up and be proven wrong, i'll wager you do the former.

Mike- I sent you a PM because I didn't want putting the name and number on the board...Like I said he may not be at home til tonight- because I know he had the caddy shined up and was headed to Valier yesterday for the Apex Angus sale....

And he is a Lurker- anonymous poster on here....

OT is right. Farmers Union, Farm Bureau and there are several other private groups that have been putting together large chunks of land in order to sell the carbon credit rights too. I have looked into it but I am kind of against the idea of it. It doesn't add anything to the country. It doesn't create wealth. It is just a gas and paper trade.

Yep- in fact the day we were talking agout it- he said that he was getting payments on his land that he had taken out of crop production and had put back into improved pasture for the good grassfinishing genetics black angus he runs....
 

RobertMac

Well-known member
Obviously you people don't know this, but carbon dioxide is plant food. Increased carbon dioxide means increased plant growth...which means more food. Can't have that!!!
I believe there is data that shows the planet has been cooling(ever so slightly) since 2001. Bottom line...we aren't a pimple on an elephants butt when it comes to controlling the climate!!!!!
 
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