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Oldtimer, Econ, etc.

Red Robin

Well-known member
reader (the Second) said:
Minority implies a comparison point. Your lack of knowledge of statistics is showing. Consider carefully the recent elections before you claim majority status :lol: :lol: :lol:
You're silly if you think that.
 

aplusmnt

Well-known member
Econ101 said:
aplusmnt said:
Econ101 said:
The costs of war should be calculated before it is engaged.

Bush knew that Saddam's strategy was to turn and run, hide in the midst of the people while fomenting an uprising against the occupiers. Bush made several strategic mistakes that were made because of politics, not winning the war. If he wasn't up to the job, he shouldn't have started it.

Disbanding the military and making enemies of the Bathists was a critical mistake. Not hiring the military of Iraq was another. It made enemies of the part of the population that knew how to fight the uprising instead of including them in the solution.

Bush is more than willing to win the war, just people like you living in a Fast Food society think a War should last months not years. It is ideology like yours that is not willing to win the war, you want to cut and run.

As far as a disbanding the Military not a reasonable person on earth would have said I tell you what here is what we are going to do. We will go in and fight the Iraqi army but once we get to Baghdad we will go ahead and keep them in power, they can keep their weapons and just continue being Iraqi soldiers.

I guarantee you are a liar if you would have agreed with that plan before the invasion. Some times good decisions turn out to be not so good of decisions with hind sight. As a leader you have to do what is the most obvious correct thing to do and then adapt as things change.

That is plum stupid to get on the band wagon of keeping the Iraqi Army intact. Even with hind sight it might not have been a good idea, who knows it did not happen and we will never know if things would be better or worse leaving them intact.

R2
Loosing all those lives and the War in Vietnam is my point. The Libs are wanting to set us up to do the same thing in Iraq and no it is not worth it if you are going to cut and run and be a looser. The only way the lives that lost in Vietnam or Iraq can be remotely justified would be to win. \

To win you have to continue to fight. You have to change strategies, you have to adapt to the enemy and you have to take the gloves off and fight a the War the Terrorist are bringing not the war that a bunch of suits in charge that consult their lawyers and Political advisers before they drop bomb would have us fight.

Personally I do not want to be reading in History Books 40 years from now how we lost the Iraq war. Like kids do now for Vietnam. We are there now lets win it, kill some Radicals, drop some bombs and get the Heck out of there. A true conservative would do that very thing, a true Liberal would cut and run and go down in history as twice the looser.

And if we loose this war I am afraid the next one will be three strikes and we are out. No one will respect us, fear us, support us. And the youth will not want to fight for a country that turns tail and runs in the last two major wars we fought.

I say lets nut up and fight like My Grandfather and Great Grand Father did in WWI and WWII and win this one.

aplus you are just nuts. Smart people know how to keep their enemies near so they can watch them. Even as it was, there were elements of the Iraqi police/army that need to be weeded out. We don't have a great leader in Maleki (sp) as it is. Many of the problems that we had in Iraq were very predictable. We just had a leader who didn't believe anything he didn't want to believe. The emperor had no clothes and was too shallow to notice himself. It didn't help that he had a lot of cheerleaders instead of thinkers.

Your radicalism is about as bad as the radicalism in the muslim world. Maybe you should join up and show everyone how to do it. If you make an enemy out of everyone, everyone will be your enemy.

I doubt I could lead anyone. But I do know my Ideology would work, it was proven with the win of WWII. And I know your Ideology does not work it was proven with the loss of Vietnam.
 

Steve

Well-known member
I doubt I could lead anyone. But I do know my Ideology would work, it was proven with the win of WWII. And I know your Ideology does not work it was proven with the loss of Vietnam.

seems the conservative policy is to win at all costs,....

and the liberal policy is to lose at all costs.......
 

Econ101

Well-known member
Steve said:
I doubt I could lead anyone. But I do know my Ideology would work, it was proven with the win of WWII. And I know your Ideology does not work it was proven with the loss of Vietnam.

seems the conservative policy is to win at all costs,....

and the liberal policy is to lose at all costs.......

My ideology?

No one but the commander in chief counts for that one, Steve and aplus. He is the one in charge for better or worse.

If you replace the system with a system just as bad or worse than the one you replaced, you have a recipe for losing.
 

Steve

Well-known member
If you replace the system with a system just as bad or worse than the one you replaced, you have a recipe for losing.

I feel the same way about the midterm elections.....yep they replaced the darn republicans,....but with what.dang Democrats........same reason I could have never voted for Gore, or Kerry.....Recipe for disaster.....
 

aplusmnt

Well-known member
Econ101 said:
Steve said:
I doubt I could lead anyone. But I do know my Ideology would work, it was proven with the win of WWII. And I know your Ideology does not work it was proven with the loss of Vietnam.

seems the conservative policy is to win at all costs,....

and the liberal policy is to lose at all costs.......

My ideology?

No one but the commander in chief counts for that one, Steve and aplus. He is the one in charge for better or worse.

If you replace the system with a system just as bad or worse than the one you replaced, you have a recipe for losing.

What you are not getting is it is people like you that say we are replacing them with someone worse. Because you want to quit, and run. You want to give up and loose the fight.

Me I say fight until you can leave them in a better spot than they had before. I bet you eat at McDonalds a lot huh? You can not stand to sit down at Applebees and wait on your food. Things take time, lots more Terrorist to be killed in Iraq at the moment, no reason to leave just yet.

Might as well stay in Iraq were every where a soldier swings his gun is a Terrorist instead of coming home and wondering if the Muslim in front of you at McDonalds has a bomb strapped to his chest.
 

Econ101

Well-known member
aplusmnt said:
Econ101 said:
Steve said:
seems the conservative policy is to win at all costs,....

and the liberal policy is to lose at all costs.......

My ideology?

No one but the commander in chief counts for that one, Steve and aplus. He is the one in charge for better or worse.

If you replace the system with a system just as bad or worse than the one you replaced, you have a recipe for losing.

What you are not getting is it is people like you that say we are replacing them with someone worse. Because you want to quit, and run. You want to give up and loose the fight.

Me I say fight until you can leave them in a better spot than they had before. I bet you eat at McDonalds a lot huh? You can not stand to sit down at Applebees and wait on your food. Things take time, lots more Terrorist to be killed in Iraq at the moment, no reason to leave just yet.

Might as well stay in Iraq were every where a soldier swings his gun is a Terrorist instead of coming home and wondering if the Muslim in front of you at McDonalds has a bomb strapped to his chest.

Now you are putting words in my mouth. I have criticized the administration but never said we should leave right now. If they don't get things turned around, we will leave in disgrace. It is not what I want however. It is just what will happen.

For your information, I eat at home mostly. My wife and family like our home cooking and garden veggies better than what we get eating out. You can't beat it if you pick it and eat in within an hour. When you grow your own, you have more choices and varieties of vegetables than what is available to most.

Aplus, we need to have a very active FBI to go after terrorists that have made it in our country. These operations should have oversight so the government does not use it on regular Americans for political purposes instead of going after real terrorists. Terrorists are in most oppressive governments. I don't want ours to be one of them.

It would seem you have not thought ahead to such possibilities. Maybe you should think about it harder. It is in much of the world right now.
 

aplusmnt

Well-known member
Econ101 said:
aplusmnt said:
Econ101 said:
My ideology?

No one but the commander in chief counts for that one, Steve and aplus. He is the one in charge for better or worse.

If you replace the system with a system just as bad or worse than the one you replaced, you have a recipe for losing.

What you are not getting is it is people like you that say we are replacing them with someone worse. Because you want to quit, and run. You want to give up and loose the fight.

Me I say fight until you can leave them in a better spot than they had before. I bet you eat at McDonalds a lot huh? You can not stand to sit down at Applebees and wait on your food. Things take time, lots more Terrorist to be killed in Iraq at the moment, no reason to leave just yet.

Might as well stay in Iraq were every where a soldier swings his gun is a Terrorist instead of coming home and wondering if the Muslim in front of you at McDonalds has a bomb strapped to his chest.

Now you are putting words in my mouth. I have criticized the administration but never said we should leave right now. If they don't get things turned around, we will leave in disgrace. It is not what I want however. It is just what will happen.

For your information, I eat at home mostly. My wife and family like our home cooking and garden veggies better than what we get eating out. You can't beat it if you pick it and eat in within an hour. When you grow your own, you have more choices and varieties of vegetables than what is available to most.

Aplus, we need to have a very active FBI to go after terrorists that have made it in our country. These operations should have oversight so the government does not use it on regular Americans for political purposes instead of going after real terrorists. Terrorists are in most oppressive governments. I don't want ours to be one of them.

It would seem you have not thought ahead to such possibilities. Maybe you should think about it harder. It is in much of the world right now.

Sorry if I assumed you were a cut and runner. Either red it into your post or confused you with others on here then.
 

Econ101

Well-known member
The good people in Iraq deserve better than they have right now.

I hope we can give it to them. There are a lot of good men and women sacrificing to make that a reality for them. It would be a shame if we couldn't.

If we can't, it will have huge implications to future policies we try to push in the world. One of the things we have to do is live the life we have hopes of giving them.

That includes not allowing an elite few to govern the country for their own benefit and to the detriment of others. It is the aristocracy our founding fathers warned about. Power emanating from wealth is to be guarded against. Our elected officials seem to owe their future to the big money that seems to buy their seats in Congress.

I feel we have some work to do in that regard here at home.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
 

Mike

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
RoperAB said:
Yup up here they give State funerals for politicians but the same politicians dont want to spring for a State funeral for Canads last WW1 Vet.
How about giving higher pensions for medal reciprients? Its only medal of honour recipients that get a misserable little pension I think its something like $1200 a year. Other medals dont pay anything that I know of.
BTW OT I put most of the blame for this mess in Iraq on Haliburton. There were much better options than doing what was done but by going in and trying to occupy it was the best way to benifit Haliburton.
I wish to God that there was some way of forceing the ones who have bennifited the most from stupid decisions of Bush to actually have to do their part and send there kids into combat :mad:
But for the most part its the ones who bennifit the l;east from society the ones who dont own a bunch of land, who dont have a fancy education who have to do the grunt work :mad:

Older men declare war. But it is the youth that must fight and die. ~Herbert Hoover

Draft Beer - Not People ~ a voice of the 60's

I supported this war from day one...I think it was something the free world needed to do- it just saddens me that so much of that free world turned away from their obligations... I still believe that if all the countries of the free world had moved against Iraq we wouldn't have the amount of involvement as is now coming out of Syria and Iran....

I still support the war- but I'm starting to get hinky feelings about it....Its starting to appear to be micromanaged by whatever the press, the civilians, the peacemongers, the foreign governments, etc. are saying-- We're seeing solders being charged with crimes for events that happen during war- more and more shoot/don't shoot, can't engage until engaged orders - more we can bomb this area, but not go near that area rules... Just the same as we saw in Vietnam/Laos/Thailand....

War ain't pretty- folks dying ain't pretty...And civilians or unintentional/accidentally identified targets will be injured and killed-- and we shouldn't be making our troops have to make sure the person (man or woman or child) is packing his terrorist union card before he can shoot him....Kids packed bombs in Vietnam-kids killed troops in Nam and I'm sure they're doing the same here with these nutcases...The only press allowed in should be those living with the troops and getting shot at and blown up- definitely would give them a new outlook on what they want to report....

Either we actually fight a war- and take out whatever target presents itself--be they mosques storing weapons , or be they training camps or arms supplys in Syria or Iran or wherever-- or we get out- you can't start pussyfooting around and actually fight a war.....

WTF?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Oldtimer said:
As a history buff- I do a lot of reading about politics and the World Wars period...The other day I came across a couple of sayings from a few years back....

Naturally, the common people don't want war ... but after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.

- Hermann Goering

Older men declare war. But its the youth who must fight and die!

-Herbert Hoover

And one I remembered from old college days:

Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!!


I like this one better... I had forgot about the old college saying... Thanks for reminding me...

No secret- I've supported the troops always- thought they were getting screwed over with the micro-managed war , rules of engagement and having to look good for the 5PM news with their embedded reporter..

But it was about then that the Congressional Hearings and press brought out all GW's lies that led Congress, much of the nation, and myself to back his justification stories...

And its about then that it became very apparent that there had been no pre-planning for what to do after Saddam was taken down and that all these Democracy plans GW and his folks were spouting were not going to work...And the whole thing was turning into another very expensive Vietnam... :(


This cartoon is very fitting of what Iraq was and again has become...
[/quote]
 

Mike

Well-known member
OT wrote:
I supported this war from day one...I think it was something the free world needed to do-

Wishy-washy MoFo aren't you? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Want to change your mind again? :roll:
 

iwannabeacowboy

Well-known member
No secret- I've supported the troops always- thought they were getting screwed over with the micro-managed war , rules of engagement and having to look good for the 5PM news with their embedded reporter..

Yet Obama did something extra special with rules of engagement causing far more us deaths under him, and ObamaT has said not a word.

Funny stuff right there.
 

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