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One Israeli politician's point of view

Red Robin

Well-known member
R2 do you agree with this? Only because of our restraint does he since a weakening. We can obliterate every enemy , today. I think that is pretty much a superpower. Without using our atomic capabilities but by removing the fetters of collateral damage concerns we can over throw any nation in a matter of just a few weeks. I disagree with almost everything this man says. Would he have us remove our support from Israel? BTW it sure has been a nice atmosphere around here the last few days.
 

Faster horses

Well-known member
R2, what are we supposed to think when we read that.
It's just another Anti-Bush piece of work.

Did you see that the writer only managed to tear Bush down and
didn't offer anything of what we should be doing? That's the problem
with this bunch, they don't have a clue or a plan going for them.
All they want is to crucify the ones making the decisions.

If it was up to them and their non-surveilance, we'd have mass
murder on our hands next week.
 

Liberty Belle

Well-known member
Who the heck is this nut? Another Islamic hate-monger? And why do you think we should care what he thinks? We already know they hate both the US and Israel just because of who we are.
 

Brad S

Well-known member
The United States under Bush single-handedly destroyed its deterrent power and that of the free world, including Israel. If the American demon that has taken over Iraq is not so terrible and can be worn down, then just how terrible could the Israeli demon possibly be


Thanks R2 for the article - this reminds me of the South Korean punks that blame the US for problems with North Korea.



This would be more sensible if the US weren't holding Syria and Iran out of Isreal.

This would be more sensible if delivered after Iran took US hostages for a year, or the Marines were bombed in Lebanon.

This would be more sensible if the US hadn't embarrassed so many countries' weapons systems in the gulf.

Nuclear Iran and Nouth Korea were underway before GWB took office - only GWB stopped appeasing them. When GWB uses the diplomatic community to counter Iran and N Korea, I suggest he is doing the right thing even if this leaves him open to the demogoging "he won't talk to the bad guys."
 

Red Robin

Well-known member
reader (the Second) said:
I appreciate your sharing your take on international politics and this article, Brad. It's more instructive to hear this type of response instead of the folks who just dismiss the article.

Consider how desperate the Israelis must feel. Here they were totally justified going into Lebanon and they MUST destroy Hezbollah and for an instant the world agreed with them and now Hezbollah is winning the propaganda war and hitting their towns and cities AND killed quite a few young Israeli soldiers on the ground. There is a section of the Israeli populace. This guy is one of them who believed with Oslo that if the Israelis just listened to the Palestinians and helped them gain their own state, that they would be able to live at peace.

Israel is a small country and each dead is mourned heavily, everyone will know many people displaced, killed by rockets, or killed in combat. And for those who believed peace might be at hand in the 90s, they lost the old Israeli belief that sacrifice was necessary and worth it.

I feel sad for Israel as well as for the Lebanese. I loathe Hezbollah.
To my disbelief R2 I think you are the liberal closest to the conservative position. Why don't you forsake all that liberal junk and think on every issue as clearly as you do on the Israeli issue?
 

Faster horses

Well-known member
Well, Reader2, perhaps your friends are Eastern Conservatives and we are Western. After all, this is a RANCHERS FORUM, remember?

And why do you say HMW got driven off?

I guess I don't appreciate feeling like I just got a chewing out from you.
I hope you didn't mean it that way.
I do appreciate some of the things you post that we don't have
access to.

Oh, and I did wonder, what nationality was your husband?
I remember the photo of him that you posted, but didn't remember
his nationality. Not that it matters, I was just trying to remember.
 

passin thru

Well-known member
Along the same lines

R2, I have been thinking about asking you on Israel, but your recent posts have given me insight to your take. One question, why do the Jewish people tend to vote Dem and then seem to get stabbed in the back by them?

I didn't think HMW got run off, I figured it was like NN. He seeemed to make a lot of accusations and couldn't back them up without trying to change the course of the thread. My take is he found it easier to leave than defend some of his nonsense.

I think you are wrong about the conservatives not seeing both sides. Most cons I know look at both sides. We don't feel the need to come on here and bash Bush to show the liberals we are fair minded. On the other side the quickest way to tune a conservative out is starting with the "Hate Bush" agenda. You see most conservative do get mad at Bush the way he does many things...........however if I had to vote today I would still vote for him. (I can just imagine the SC picks if Kerry would have been choosing)

So if you want conservative to be receptive to diiscussion, do not start the conversation with "Hate Bush" as it shows an agenda.
 

Red Robin

Well-known member
R2 I have never needed to see both sides to see truth. That is a flaw in your thinking. I don't need to take meth to know it is bad for you. I don't need to be a palestinian to know they are in the wrong. I don't need to have an abortion to know it's wrong...etc. I don't base my decisions on my personal feelings. It's right or wrong , truth or nontruth and the dreaded statement , black or white.
 

Red Robin

Well-known member
I think if we check IP addresses knownothing and Hmw are both still here.
Speaking of which I havn't seen olsonl in awhile among a few others.
 

passin thru

Well-known member
It is pretty safe bet after watching, styles and times that there was not near the liberals that there were liberal posters. You could see the same pattern even though they tried to hide it. It got to the point people were not letting their wild assertions stand and that they felt the heat of the aliases coming out it was easier to leave.
 

Steve

Well-known member
R2:
This guy is one of them who believed with Oslo that if the Israelis just listened to the Palestinians and helped them gain their own state, that they would be able to live at peace.

some facts:

Hamas (Arabic: حركة حماس‎; acronym: Arabic: حركة المقاومة الاسلامية‎, or Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiyya or "Islamic Resistance Movement") is a Palestinian Sunni Islamist militant organization that currently forms the majority party of the Palestinian National Authority.[1] It is listed as a terrorist organization by Australia,[2] Canada,[3] [4] the United Kingdom,[5] the European Union,[6] Israel, and the United States,[7] and is banned in Jordan.

Founded in 1987, Hamas was the Gaza Strip branch of the Pan-Arab (Sunni) Islamist Muslim Brotherhood movement, which had been founded in Egypt. Hamas is opposed to the existence of Israel and has denounced the 1993 Oslo Accords, as a "betrayal of God's will".

Hamas regards the territory of the present-day State of Israel — as well as the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — as an inalienable Islamic waqf or religious bequest, which can never be surrendered to non-Muslims. It asserts that struggle (jihad) to regain control of the land from Israel is the religious duty of every Muslim (fard `ain)"

However several Hamas candidates insist that the charter is still in force and often called for Israel to be "wiped off the map" in campaign speeches. On January 25th, 2006, after winning the Palestinian elections, Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Zahar gave an interview to Al-Manar TV denouncing foreign demands that Hamas recognize Israel's right to exist.[18] After the establishment of Hamas government, Dr Al-Zahar stated his "dreams of hanging a huge map of the world on the wall at my Gaza home which does not show Israel on it...I hope that our dream to have our independent state on all historic Palestine (including Israel). This dream will become real one day. I'm certain of this because there is no place for the state of Israel on this land".

seems like Facts, don't support his misguided opinion,
 

Murgen

Well-known member
The United States under Bush single-handedly destroyed its deterrent power and that of the free world, including Israel. If the American demon that has taken over Iraq is not so terrible and can be worn down, then just how terrible could the Israeli demon possibly be?

Liberal deterrent power consists of sitting back and talking, terrorists don't negotiate, they just spend that time planning their next mission, which is to kill innocent civilians. That may be over a few acres of farm land in Israel or because a new McDonalds has been built.
 

IL Rancher

Well-known member
I don't see and haven't seen many of the "liberals" on this board as far left as some people want to make them out to be (With perhaps the exception being Dis althought I have known dozens of Dis's in my life).. While Kolu doesn't like Bush and such I know a lot of conservatives that are very uneasy when it comes to his leadship skills or lack there off... I know I am one of them but I am not so much a social conservative as an economic one... But I am also married to a family of religious conservatives so I get that view as well..

I think you get on a Rancher site and people are generally going to be more conservative than the average person in this country. I know the folks I went to school with in HS and first 3 years of college were much, much more liberal than the ranch kids I ran into at MSU. Good, bad or indifferent abut the subject I am glad I was exposed to both sitations becauses it was great being challeneged on what I believed and understanding people of other backgrounds/believes.

I will say that a lot of midwestern conservatives that I know are not exactly happy about Bush right now. I would say that most would still vote for him vs Kerry but I think some are regretting voting for him in the primaries in 2000. I think that is very typical though as god only knows how McCain would have done in the same situation or whoever else was running back than (Keyes? Bauer? Who else ran back than?)

I have often wondered why people of the Jewish faith and Catholics (Who are officially anti abortion in a major way) vote overwhelmingly democratic. I asked my Jewish friends back in college why but for the life of me I can't remember the answer while the Catholics I have asked say it is generally that traditionally a lot of catholics belonged to trade unions and the unions where overwhelmingly democrar supporters. Out here in the country I guess it works the other way as Unions are frowned upon.
 

IL Rancher

Well-known member
I laugh about how liberal I thought some folks at my first university were (Northwestern University) after I think about some of the schools I visited out east and one I visited in Minnisota where guys were walking around with no shoes into class and wearing nail polish on their feet. That place gave me the heebiejeebies.. Wish it hadn't because the style they taught there would probably have fit me better than most other schools, oh well, that is the past and 17 year olds don't always make the right decisions.

Your description on the Jewish vote sounds a bit familiar so I will go with that :wink: I would imagine that the conflict in the mideast might led to weakening of the Democrat strangle hold on the Jewish vote... I wouldn't use Regean as a sample though as he did remarkebly well in losts of traditionally democratic demographics.. The man was the ultimate speaker and ran against some real weak canidates...

Don't get me wrong Reader, I think some of the liberals on this board do enjoy their statues as provacteurs.... I also have to agree with PT's point that if you are going to try to make a point starting out with Bush stinks yadda yadda yadda it isn't going to go over very well and immedietly you are putting people on the defensive and they will NOT listen. I just think perception has a lot to do with circumstances of your surrondings. One persons liberal nutcase is anothers moderate and one persones moderate is anothers right wing nut... I was perhaps the most conservative person in my HS and college. On this board? Man, I feel like a moderate.
 

Brad S

Well-known member
I metriculated at the U of Kansas - gotta be the most leftist place this side of Havanna. Seriously, the liberals there seem to have something of an inferriority complex brought on by the Kansas smears that is only attoned by out liberaling everyone else. Academic freedon is the casualty with all this rightthink - I didn't fit in very well.


R2, the popular indightment of Isreal (by the not so bright intellegencia) is that of "zionists." defined as residents on land not theirs. I guess its all the Jews fault because they were persecuted by the Romans and Egyptians. When confronted by this nonsense I asked from where might those pesky Jews be? No answer other than "they should migrate to the US.' So I say "I'm Mescalero Apache (I am if 1/8 counts) and I don't want those zionist ba$tards on my land nor any of you white eyes zionists here before me." The hypocricy was ignored or missed. I just have so little paticience for such positions deviod of rational input. Its like someone says something that sounds workable and most importantly condemns the badgroup (the Orwellian term escapes me), and then reiteration makes it so.
 

Steve

Well-known member
Whereas the conservatives tend to be more conservative than the norm elsewhere. I am not sniping at anyone, just have observed that and feel pretty confident that it's valid.


. I also have to agree with PT's point that if you are going to try to make a point starting out with Bush stinks yadda yadda yadda it isn't going to go over very well and immedietly you are putting people on the defensive and they will NOT listen.

Yet when you present "facts that dispute the Quote", all you get is another snide (od Sniping) remark about how conservative some of the conservatives are....so much for "liberal debate" when it's wrong, they just "attack conservatives".....

R2:
:
This guy is one of them who believed with Oslo that if the Israelis just listened to the Palestinians and helped them gain their own state, that they would be able to live at peace.


some facts:

Hamas (Arabic: حركة حماس‎; acronym: Arabic: حركة المقاومة الاسلامية‎, or Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiyya or "Islamic Resistance Movement") is a Palestinian Sunni Islamist militant organization that currently forms the majority party of the Palestinian National Authority.[1] It is listed as a terrorist organization by Australia,[2] Canada,[3] [4] the United Kingdom,[5] the European Union,[6] Israel, and the United States,[7] and is banned in Jordan.

Founded in 1987, Hamas was the Gaza Strip branch of the Pan-Arab (Sunni) Islamist Muslim Brotherhood movement, which had been founded in Egypt. Hamas is opposed to the existence of Israel and has denounced the 1993 Oslo Accords, as a "betrayal of God's will".

Hamas regards the territory of the present-day State of Israel — as well as the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — as an inalienable Islamic waqf or religious bequest, which can never be surrendered to non-Muslims. It asserts that struggle (jihad) to regain control of the land from Israel is the religious duty of every Muslim (fard `ain)"

However several Hamas candidates insist that the charter is still in force and often called for Israel to be "wiped off the map" in campaign speeches. On January 25th, 2006, after winning the Palestinian elections, Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Zahar gave an interview to Al-Manar TV denouncing foreign demands that Hamas recognize Israel's right to exist.[18] After the establishment of Hamas government, Dr Al-Zahar stated his "dreams of hanging a huge map of the world on the wall at my Gaza home which does not show Israel on it...I hope that our dream to have our independent state on all historic Palestine (including Israel). This dream will become real one day. I'm certain of this because there is no place for the state of Israel on this land".

seems like Facts, don't support his misguided opinion,
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
reader (the Second) said:
You guys don't realize how much further to the center most true conservatives are. I have a LOT of conservative friends and none of them are so far to the right as some of you. Some of them are leading conservative thinkers in the US.
Once again we're fortunate to have someone point out just how dumb we are around here. Sheesh, you have to wonder how some people can even stand to be around us. :lol:

All I can say is, what gives YOU the right to decide what a "true" conservative is? I mean, except for being so much smarter than the rest of us.

Someone hobnobs in the same elitist circles as you do...participates in those grad-degreed eastern elitist contests to see whose nose will point highest without gettin' goose crap in it...then call themselves a TRUE conservative? That don't make it so, does it?
 

Red Robin

Well-known member
X said:
reader (the Second) said:
You guys don't realize how much further to the center most true conservatives are. I have a LOT of conservative friends and none of them are so far to the right as some of you. Some of them are leading conservative thinkers in the US.
Once again we're fortunate to have someone point out just how dumb we are around here. Sheesh, you have to wonder how some people can even stand to be around us. :lol:

All I can say is, what gives YOU the right to decide what a "true" conservative is? I mean, except for being so much smarter than the rest of us.

Someone hobnobs in the same elitist circles as you do...participates in those grad-degreed eastern elitist contests to see whose nose will point highest without gettin' goose crap in it...then call themselves a TRUE conservative? That don't make it so, does it?
Good point X. I am proud to be a right thinker though. If she says I am the most conservative person in the whole U.S. then all I can say is thank you. Where's my prize.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I agree with you completely, Red Robin.

Also, just to be completely open and honest, I should add that even though I find #2 to be pretty much of a snob, I also find her to be a very objective and reasoned thinker.

While I'm pretty certain that she and I could never stand to be in the same building together, I always try to read her point of view and give value to her opinions...particulary on Middle East issues.
 
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