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Organic going mainstream - issues

Mike

Well-known member
"The USDA listens to big players more closely than to consumers or small farmers," says Ronnie Cummins, director of the Organic Consumers Association in Finland, Minn. "With Wal-Mart and other folks jumping in, what will happen down the road is the small- and medium-size operators will be forced out of business."

Blamers!

Factually Void Liars!

:lol:
 

TimH

Well-known member
Mike said:
"The USDA listens to big players more closely than to consumers or small farmers," says Ronnie Cummins, director of the Organic Consumers Association in Finland, Minn. "With Wal-Mart and other folks jumping in, what will happen down the road is the small- and medium-size operators will be forced out of business."

Blamers!

Factually Void Liars!

:lol:

Quote(from the article)-
"Both producers, the report said, buy much of their milk from large-scale feedlots where ......"

Hmmm????

Factual or factually void?????? :lol:
 

PORKER

Well-known member
Meanwhile, consumers scanning the aisles face a jumble of labels and claims - cage-free, natural, free-range, organic ,angus beef,grass fed, with little to indicate how well those claims match reality.

The only Label system that can match reality is www.scoringag.com
Check out this press release ,Looks like a biggy , for them. http://www.newswiretoday.com/news/5597/
 

PORKER

Well-known member
One other press Story released http://www.morerfid.com/details.php?subdetail=Report&action=details&report_id=1733&display=RFID

The seafood industry must be better than the beef industry,or just smarter!
 

mrj

Well-known member
PORKER said:
One other press Story released http://www.morerfid.com/details.php?subdetail=Report&action=details&report_id=1733&display=RFID

The seafood industry must be better than the beef industry,or just smarter!

Porker, if Scoring Systems is the best, biggest, and only one doing what they do, why should we not fear and hate them equally as much as Tyson, Walmart....you see the picture???? If they have all that control over the labeling and tracking, why then, would they not hold us all hostage for ever higher rates, costs, rules, etc.? Surely they could tighten the noose, so to speak, once they get us all required to ID everything?
MRJ
 

Silver

Well-known member
I get kinda wound up over the whole organic thing at times, especially organic farming. I've never seen such an environmentally UNfriendly practice in all my life. Countless acres of summerfallow blowing and washing away never to be seen again... fields of grain full of wild oats and canada thistle.... makes me ill. I think if these farmers want to be taken seriously they need to come up with better farming practices. The ones they're using are the ones that made the thirties dirty. Which isn't to say that I don't think there is a place for clean safe food, but I think there must be some middle ground there somewhere.
 

Jason

Well-known member
Silver said:
I get kinda wound up over the whole organic thing at times, especially organic farming. I've never seen such an environmentally UNfriendly practice in all my life. Countless acres of summerfallow blowing and washing away never to be seen again... fields of grain full of wild oats and canada thistle.... makes me ill. I think if these farmers want to be taken seriously they need to come up with better farming practices. The ones they're using are the ones that made the thirties dirty. Which isn't to say that I don't think there is a place for clean safe food, but I think there must be some middle ground there somewhere.

Organic farming isn't responsible for weeds or summer fallow. Actually when you investigate summer fallow is hard on the land for erosion like you mention and it depleats organic matter.

Some have claimed "organic" just so they can explain their weedy fields. That doesn't mean they really are.

I am investigating orgainc alternatives, but still try to farm decently. There might be some middle ground for a while using some chemical to keep weeds down while building the soil. The problem is chemical kills natural soil life.
 

Econ101

Well-known member
Silver said:
I get kinda wound up over the whole organic thing at times, especially organic farming. I've never seen such an environmentally UNfriendly practice in all my life. Countless acres of summerfallow blowing and washing away never to be seen again... fields of grain full of wild oats and canada thistle.... makes me ill. I think if these farmers want to be taken seriously they need to come up with better farming practices. The ones they're using are the ones that made the thirties dirty. Which isn't to say that I don't think there is a place for clean safe food, but I think there must be some middle ground there somewhere.

Silver, in a lot of ways you are right about this. The problem is the slippery slope and where to draw the line on that slope. "Organic" tries to draw it before Monsanto's and man made chemicals and the such.

Ideally the organic farmers would work on those thistles with "natural" methods of control. I think this could include a shovel. I used to have them a bit but by mowing at the right time, you can get rid of most of them. A few goats do wonders also. Goats like a lot of the broadleaves like thistle but not the grass.
 

mrj

Well-known member
Mike said:
"The USDA listens to big players more closely than to consumers or small farmers," says Ronnie Cummins, director of the Organic Consumers Association in Finland, Minn. "With Wal-Mart and other folks jumping in, what will happen down the road is the small- and medium-size operators will be forced out of business."

Blamers!

Factually Void Liars!

:lol:

Mike, where do you and the author, who seems to be implying that USDA "listens to big players more closely than to consumers or small farmers", get the idea that it is for any reason other than the fact that the medium to large farms are the ones that produce the most food? Other than to promote the idea that USDA is inherently evil because they do not attack the 'big' outfits, that is? The world needs food in quantity and needs massive distrubution systems to get it to the most people possible. Don't you enjoy that vast variety of foods from all over the world? I sure would hate to give up pineapple, coconut, Brazil nuts, coffee, tea and many more things not produced in the USA, and God forbid that we in the upper mid-west would HAVE to "eat locally" exclusively again!!!

Maybe if the organic movement and its proponents is sincere, they would be making stronger efforts in third world nations teaching locally sustainable agriculture rather than trying to dismantle the system in the USA and other nations that is cutting the numbers of hungry people round the world. I have nothing against organic production so long as proponents do not promote their wares by claims, not always true, that conventional produced foods are dangerous or less nutritious than organically grown.

MRJ
 

Econ101

Well-known member
MRJ said:
Mike said:
"The USDA listens to big players more closely than to consumers or small farmers," says Ronnie Cummins, director of the Organic Consumers Association in Finland, Minn. "With Wal-Mart and other folks jumping in, what will happen down the road is the small- and medium-size operators will be forced out of business."

Blamers!

Factually Void Liars!

:lol:

Mike, where do you and the author who seem to be implying that USDA "listens to big players more closely than to consumers or small farmers" for any reason other than the fact that the medium to large farms are the ones that produce the most food? The world needs food in quantity and needs distrubution systems to get it to the most people possible. And still there are people starving.

Maybe if the organic movement and its proponents is sincere, they would be making stronger efforts in third world nations teaching locally sustainable agriculture rather than trying to dismantle the system in the USA and other nations that is cutting the numbers of hungry people round the world. I have nothing against organic production so long as proponents do not promote their wares by claims, not always true, that conventional produced foods are dangerous or less nutritious than organically grown.

MRJ

MRJ, sustainable ag is making those efforts. It is pretty hard to keep their efforts up when the big money comes in and tries to knock down the standards or cut corners on those standards so they can be the low cost producer and run everyone else out of that market.

The fact that you know very little about those efforts doesn't mean they are not happening. Right now there is an excess of food in the world. The problem is not food production, it is food distribution. Some of the global trade exacerbates that problem along with under production.
 

RobertMac

Well-known member
Sandhusker said:
Are these organic products based on sound science? That is a requirement, you know. :roll:

Of course it is...it's USDA approved!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
You know what a USDA approved free range chicken is...
They put a small screened room on the side of the large chicken house. The problem is the chickens have never been outside, so they are afraid to explore their range! :?

R2, the USDA organic standards are an opening for the large food companies to take over the 'organic' name...which they have.

I always say there's an implicit partnership between farmers who produce organic and consumers who buy it.

This isn't only true for organics...consumers implicitly trust producers in general. That is an advantage that producers can take advantage of...some of us are!!!! :D
 

Econ101

Well-known member
RobertMac said:
Sandhusker said:
Are these organic products based on sound science? That is a requirement, you know. :roll:

Of course it is...it's USDA approved!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
You know what a USDA approved free range chicken is...
They put a small screened room on the side of the large chicken house. The problem is the chickens have never been outside, so they are afraid to explore their range! :?

R2, the USDA organic standards are an opening for the large food companies to take over the 'organic' name...which they have.

I always say there's an implicit partnership between farmers who produce organic and consumers who buy it.

This isn't only true for organics...consumers implicitly trust producers in general. That is an advantage that producers can take advantage of...some of us are!!!! :D

"R2, the USDA organic standards are an opening for the large food companies to take over the 'organic' name...which they have."

....with USDA approval and help on the "organic" changes.
 

RobertMac

Well-known member
Econ said:
....with USDA approval and help on the "organic" changes.

I was looking into these markets at the time the USDA organic standards were being discussed. The producers that were already producing 'organic' products didn't want this 'government intrusion into their independent free market' ...and neither did their customers! Actually, organic type meat production is market expansion because the consumers that buy organic won't buy conventional meats.
 

Econ101

Well-known member
RobertMac said:
Econ said:
....with USDA approval and help on the "organic" changes.

I was looking into these markets at the time the USDA organic standards were being discussed. The producers that were already producing 'organic' products didn't want this 'government intrusion into their independent free market' ...and neither did their customers! Actually, organic type meat production is market expansion because the consumers that buy organic won't buy conventional meats.

What they didn't want is the USDA coming in and certifying their business because they knew the USDA would sell out to the big boys at the first chance they could, and they have.

The big boys will ruin the organic program with their greed as they always do.

They create a barrier to entry into the business whenever they can produce at a lower cost than the market equilibrium even if it means cheating. It allows them to dominate the market and the food industry.

I almost fell out of my seat when I saw some of the "natural" chicken products being advertised in a hokey country manner and found out it was one of the big integrators trying to fool the public again.

The USDA as a regulatory agency is a complete failure along with their industry support teams.

It is a real shame we have a dishonest/incompetent government.
 

RobertMac

Well-known member
Econ101 said:
RobertMac said:
Econ said:
....with USDA approval and help on the "organic" changes.

I was looking into these markets at the time the USDA organic standards were being discussed. The producers that were already producing 'organic' products didn't want this 'government intrusion into their independent free market' ...and neither did their customers! Actually, organic type meat production is market expansion because the consumers that buy organic won't buy conventional meats.

What they didn't want is the USDA coming in and certifying their business because they knew the USDA would sell out to the big boys at the first chance they could, and they have.

The big boys will ruin the organic program with their greed as they always do.

They create a barrier to entry into the business whenever they can produce at a lower cost than the market equilibrium even if it means cheating. It allows them to dominate the market and the food industry.

I almost fell out of my seat when I saw some of the "natural" chicken products being advertised in a hokey country manner and found out it was one of the big integrators trying to fool the public again.

The USDA as a regulatory agency is a complete failure along with their industry support teams.

It is a real shame we have a dishonest/incompetent government.

I know the blind USDA/NCBA apologist won't believe these things, but...a label claim of "natural" has absolutely nothing to do with how a meat animal is raised. It simply means "minimally processed"...any fresh meat product that hasn't been 'further processed' can be labeled as natural. :roll:

The first grassfed standards proposed by FSIS called for 80% of a calf's life time energy be from forage. This would allow an animal raised on pasture to be finished in a normal feedlot for 60 days and still be labeled grassfed. Essentially the old cow/calf, stocker, feedlot vs. calf fed. During the comment period, FSIS only received two comments favoring this standard. Who were they listening to and coming up with this program???? :roll:
The new proposal is for 99%!!! :D
 

IL Rancher

Well-known member
Kind of like the Organic standards... There was a loop hole, don't know if it still there, that basically gave some wiggle room for organic meat producers to use non organic feed if they had a hard time getting the organic certified feed. That is, in theory understandable but what it left a whole big enough to drive a Mack truck loaded with a thousand bushels of GMO corn to the organic chicken farm for whatever reason...

I have folks alling all the tim asking for beef or chicken or lamb that is "natural"... They all assume that Natural means no hormones and no antibiotics and no pesticides used on the critter... At least that is what theyare asking for...
 

Jason

Well-known member
The reason USDA had to step in and make rules for "organic" products was because the term was being used for any and everything.

Producers wanting to cash in on the public's desire for "better" food labeled all their wares "organic".

Large food companies have taken notice of organic production, because A) it is a growing segment of the food buying dollar and B) traditional methods of production are too costly to sustain, both in dollars and in environmental terms.

Because of the rapid growth in organics, and logistics, there may indeed be some passing off non compliant products. As with anything the consumer will have to find brands he/she trusts. Producers have the onus to live up to the published standards and to document their compliance.

Really nothing has changed with organic rules. Protocol has always been there for food products. Companies that want a larger share of the consumer dollar will have to be better at satisfying their needs than anyone else, and at a competative price.
 

Econ101

Well-known member
Jason said:
The reason USDA had to step in and make rules for "organic" products was because the term was being used for any and everything.

Producers wanting to cash in on the public's desire for "better" food labeled all their wares "organic".

Large food companies have taken notice of organic production, because A) it is a growing segment of the food buying dollar and B) traditional methods of production are too costly to sustain, both in dollars and in environmental terms.

Because of the rapid growth in organics, and logistics, there may indeed be some passing off non compliant products. As with anything the consumer will have to find brands he/she trusts. Producers have the onus to live up to the published standards and to document their compliance.

Really nothing has changed with organic rules. Protocol has always been there for food products. Companies that want a larger share of the consumer dollar will have to be better at satisfying their needs than anyone else, and at a competative price.

No, Jason, you are plain wrong on this one.

The USDA is watering down the standards to fit a production model their clients have, not a production model the customer want.

Jason: Because of the rapid growth in organics, and logistics, there may indeed be some passing off non compliant products

Econ: Just an excuse. Nothing more, nothing less. You sure come up with a lot of them, Jason. In a free market, logistics are not an excuse to bend the rules for members of the good old boys club.

As I said before, you would not make a good regulator. I will extend that to any position that required integrity over self interest.
 

Jason

Well-known member
No, Jason, you are plain wrong on this one.

The USDA is watering down the standards to fit a production model their clients have, not a production model the customer want.

Prove it. I have the USDA guidelines, you have your vivid imagination.
 
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