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OT endorses those responisble for 911

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
If all Gods are the same God, then those that killed 3000 on 911, worship the same God, correct?

they interpreted the "word of their God", a little differently, but interpretation is okay, right OT?

What an ass...
 
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Anonymous

Guest
hypocritexposer said:
If all Gods are the same God, then those that killed 3000 on 911, worship the same God, correct?

they interpreted the "word of their God", a little differently, but interpretation is okay, right OT?

What an ass...

I guess you've never read of the imprisonments, torture and killings by Christians/Catholics of the several centuries know as the Inquisition periods....
During the Spanish Inquisition alone, as many as 2,000 people were burned at the stake within one decade after the Inquisition began.
--------------------------
One historian estimated that over the course of its history the Spanish Inquisition tried a total of 341,021 people, of whom at least 10 percent (31,912) were executed.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/inquisitions.html#ixzz30uTKWANb


Was imprisonment, torture, and burning at the stake a "little misinterpretation of the word of God" :???: Was Catholic Christians killing Protestant Christians a "little misinterpretation of the word of God" :???:

Explain to me why a Christian God would want his followers to do such a thing?

No you can't get away with painting Christians as "lily white"... In fact many theologians comparing the Islam religion to the Christian religion on a timeline- put the current Islam religion at about the same place historically as Christianity was during the Inquisitions- the time they were killing anyone they thought was a heretic or that didn't follow their version of the Christian religion...

Just as the Christians were led astray 6-7 centuries ago by their religious/political leaders, I believe so the Muslim's are now being led astray by their religious/political leaders...I believe Christians did not follow God's wishes, the same as Muslims did not follow God's wishes....
 

Mike

Well-known member
OT wrote:
Just as the Christians were led astray 6-7 centuries ago by their religious/political leaders, I believe so the Muslim's are now being led astray by their religious/political leaders...

NOW being led astray? Are you kidding? Muslims have been invading countries killing, beheading, raping, terrorizing the infidels all over the world for centuries non-stop. Over 250 Million people have been killed by Islam in 1400 years.

I hope this was a joke. By using the window of the Inquisitions as an excuse for the murdering by those "Peaceful" Muslims, you have shown yourself to be a total idiot.

Do you ever think before you type?

:roll:

Here, learn a little about the brutality and aggressiveness of the Muslims:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_Qpy0mXg8Y
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
OT, I have to ask, are you a Muslim? Because, you sure do make a lot of excuses for them, when it comes to killing infidels.

What is an infidel, anyway?
 

Mike

Well-known member
hypocritexposer said:
OT, I have to ask, are you a Muslim? Because, you sure do make a lot of excuses for them, when it comes to killing infidels.

What is an infidel, anyway?

They not only kill infidels, they kill each other. They kill anyone who doesn't think exactly like they think they should...............
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
Mike said:
hypocritexposer said:
OT, I have to ask, are you a Muslim? Because, you sure do make a lot of excuses for them, when it comes to killing infidels.

What is an infidel, anyway?

They not only kill infidels, they kill each other. They kill anyone who doesn't think exactly like they think they should...............

OT will be able to explain how their God is the same as all other Gods...
 
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Anonymous

Guest
hypocritexposer said:
Mike said:
hypocritexposer said:
OT, I have to ask, are you a Muslim? Because, you sure do make a lot of excuses for them, when it comes to killing infidels.

What is an infidel, anyway?

They not only kill infidels, they kill each other. They kill anyone who doesn't think exactly like they think they should...............

OT will be able to explain how their God is the same as all other Gods...

I'm not defending the Muslims- but are you saying that Christians haven't done the same in their conquering of the worlds :???: ... How about the slaughter of Indian tribes in South America by the Spanish... The Spanish/English American conquest of the North American tribes ...The colonization conquest of much of the world by the European Christian countries resulted in millions killed- and millions more taken into the world slave trade by Christian countries... The enslavement of millions of Africans by "good Christian folks" in the U.S...

As far as killing each other- Christians have done a hell of a good job of that too... Besides the old days of the inquisition and Catholics killing Protestants , in more modern times like the Revolutionary War, Civil War, WWI, WWII, and goes on to this day...Catholics and Protestants are still killing each other in Ireland..
Do you really believe the WWII German soldiers Methodist God he was praying to while laying in a trench was a different God than the American soldiers Methodist God that he was praying to while laying in his foxhole :???:

I really don't think God is too proud of either of those Abrahamic religions...
 

loomixguy

Well-known member
So now you know what God knows? You understand what he feels? Must be nice to be the Chosen One. For someone who's "not defending the Muslims" you sure do a lot of it, just like your Dear Leader does.

Get help.
 

kolanuraven

Well-known member
Mike said:
. They kill anyone who doesn't think exactly like they think they should...............


In the above sentence replace the word "kill" with the word " hate"....and SHA ZAM you have the Ranchers crew.



They HATE anyone who doesn't think exactly like they think they should.


Why do you hate?
 

hopalong

Well-known member
kolanuraven said:
Mike said:
. They kill anyone who doesn't think exactly like they think they should...............


In the above sentence replace the word "kill" with the word " hate"....and SHA ZAM you have the Ranchers crew.



They HATE anyone who doesn't think exactly like they think they should.


Why do you hate?[/quote]

Same reason YOU do !!!
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Martin Jr. said:
The Inquisition killing thousands is just a lie. Studies today show that the number was more like 300.

Yep- so was the Holocaust if you listen to some ....
 

Mike

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
Martin Jr. said:
The Inquisition killing thousands is just a lie. Studies today show that the number was more like 300.

Yep- so was the Holocaust if you listen to some ....

The Holocaust is far removed from the Inquisition. Must you always blame one group to defend another?

Are you as stupid as you seem?
 

loomixguy

Well-known member
Mike said:
Oldtimer said:
Martin Jr. said:
The Inquisition killing thousands is just a lie. Studies today show that the number was more like 300.

Yep- so was the Holocaust if you listen to some ....

The Holocaust is far removed from the Inquisition. Must you always blame one group to defend another?

Are you as stupid as you seem?

Typical Muslim tactic.....
 

Martin Jr.

Well-known member
Sooner or later, any discussion of apologetics with Fundamentalists will address the Inquisition. To non-Catholics it is a scandal; to Catholics, an embarrassment; to both, a confusion. It is a handy stick for Catholic-bashing, simply because most Catholics seem at a loss for a sensible reply. This tract will set the record straight.

There have actually been several different inquisitions. The first was established in 1184 in southern France as a response to the Catharist heresy. This was known as the Medieval Inquisition, and it was phased out as Catharism disappeared.
Quite separate was the Roman Inquisition, begun in 1542. It was the least active and most benign of the three variations.

Separate again was the infamous Spanish Inquisition, started in 1478, a state institution used to identify conversos—Jews and Moors (Muslims) who pretended to convert to Christianity for purposes of political or social advantage and secretly practiced their former religion. More importantly, its job was also to clear the good names of many people who were falsely accused of being heretics. It was the Spanish Inquisition that, at least in the popular imagination, had the worst record of fulfilling these duties.

The various inquisitions stretched through the better part of a millennia, and can collectively be called "the Inquisition."



The Main Sources


Fundamentalists writing about the Inquisition rely on books by Henry C. Lea (1825–1909) and G. G. Coulton (1858–1947). Each man got most of the facts right, and each made progress in basic research, so proper credit should not be denied them. The problem is that they did not weigh facts well, because they harbored fierce animosity toward the Church—animosity that had little to do with the Inquisition itself.

The contrary problem has not been unknown. A few Catholic writers, particularly those less interested in digging for truth than in diffusing a criticism of the Church, have glossed over incontrovertible facts and tried to whitewash the Inquisition. This is as much a disservice to the truth as an exaggeration of the Inquisition’s bad points. These well-intentioned, but misguided, apologists are, in one respect, much like Lea, Coulton, and contemporary Fundamentalist writers. They fear, while the others hope, that the facts about the Inquisition might prove the illegitimacy of the Catholic Church.



Don’t Fear the Facts


But the facts fail to do that. The Church has nothing to fear from the truth. No account of foolishness, misguided zeal, or cruelty by Catholics can undo the divine foundation of the Church, though, admittedly, these things are stumbling blocks to Catholics and non-Catholics alike.

What must be grasped is that the Church contains within itself all sorts of sinners and knaves, and some of them obtain positions of responsibility. Paul and Christ himself warned us that there would be a few ravenous wolves among Church leaders (Acts 20:29; Matt. 7:15).

Fundamentalists suffer from the mistaken notion that the Church includes only the elect. For them, sinners are outside the doors. Locate sinners, and you locate another place where the Church is not.

Thinking that Fundamentalists might have a point in their attacks on the Inquisition, Catholics tend to be defensive. This is the wrong attitude; rather, we should learn what really happened, understand events in light of the times, and then explain to anti-Catholics why the sorry tale does not prove what they think it proves.



Phony Statistics


Many Fundamentalists believe, for instance, that more people died under the Inquisition than in any war or plague; but in this they rely on phony "statistics" generated by one-upmanship among anti-Catholics, each of whom, it seems, tries to come up with the largest number of casualties.

But trying to straighten out such historical confusions can take one only so far. As Ronald Knox put it, we should be cautious, "lest we should wander interminably in a wilderness of comparative atrocity statistics." In fact, no one knows exactly how many people perished through the various Inquisitions. We can determine for certain, though, one thing about numbers given by Fundamentalists: They are far too large. One book popular with Fundamentalists claims that 95 million people died under the Inquisition.

The figure is so grotesquely off that one immediately doubts the writer’s sanity, or at least his grasp of demographics. Not until modern times did the population of those countries where the Inquisitions existed approach 95 million.

Inquisitions did not exist in Northern Europe, Eastern Europe, Scandinavia, or England, being confined mainly to southern France, Italy, Spain, and a few parts of the Holy Roman Empire. The Inquisition could not have killed that many people because those parts of Europe did not have that many people to kill!

Furthermore, the plague, which killed a third of Europe’s population, is credited by historians with major changes in the social structure. The Inquisition is credited with few—precisely because the number of its victims was comparitively small. In fact, recent studies indicate that at most there were only a few thousand capital sentences carried out for heresy in Spain, and these were over the course of several centuries.



What’s the Point?


Ultimately, it may be a waste of time arguing about statistics. Instead, ask Fundamentalists just what they think the existence of the Inquisition demonstrates. They would not bring it up in the first place unless they thought it proves something about the Catholic Church. And what is that something? That Catholics are sinners? Guilty as charged. That at times people in positions of authority have used poor judgment? Ditto. That otherwise good Catholics, afire with zeal, sometimes lose their balance? All true, but such charges could be made even if the Inquisition had never existed and perhaps could be made of some Fundamentalists.

Fundamentalist writers claim the existence of the Inquisition proves the Catholic Church could not be the Church founded by our Lord. They use the Inquisition as a good—perhaps their best—bad example. They think this shows that the Catholic Church is illegitimate. At first blush it might seem so, but there is only so much mileage in a ploy like that; most people see at once that the argument is weak. One reason Fundamentalists talk about the Inquisition is that they take it as a personal attack, imagining it was established to eliminate (yes, you guessed it) the Fundamentalists themselves.



Not "Bible Christians"


They identify themselves with the Catharists (also known as the Albigensians), or perhaps it is better to say they identify the Catharists with themselves. They think the Catharists were twelfth-century Fundamentalists and that Catholics did to them what they would do to Fundamentalists today if they had the political strength they once had.

This is a fantasy. Fundamentalist writers take one point—that Catharists used a vernacular version of the Bible—and conclude from it that these people were "Bible Christians." In fact, theirs was a curious religion that apparently (no one knows for certain) came to France from what is now Bulgaria. Catharism was a blend of Gnosticism, which claimed to have access to a secret source of religious knowledge, and of Manichaeism, which said matter is evil. The Catharists believed in two gods: the "good" God of the New Testament, who sent Jesus to save our souls from being trapped in matter; and the "evil" God of the Old Testament, who created the material world in the first place. The Catharists’ beliefs entailed serious—truly civilization-destroying—social consequences.

Marriage was scorned because it legitimized sexual relations, which Catharists identified as the Original Sin. But fornication was permitted because it was temporary, secret, and was not generally approved of; while marriage was permanent, open, and publicly sanctioned.

The ramifications of such theories are not hard to imagine. In addition, ritualistic suicide was encouraged (those who would not take their own lives were frequently "helped" along), and Catharists refused to take oaths, which, in a feudal society, meant they opposed all governmental authority. Thus, Catharism was both a moral and a political danger.

Even Lea, so strongly opposed to the Catholic Church, admitted: "The cause of orthodoxy was the cause of progress and civilization. Had Catharism become dominant, or even had it been allowed to exist on equal terms, its influence could not have failed to become disastrous." Whatever else might be said about Catharism, it was certainly not the same as modern Fundamentalism, and Fundamentalist sympathy for this destructive belief system is sadly misplaced.



The Real Point


Many discussions about the Inquisition get bogged down in numbers and many Catholics fail to understand what Fundamentalists are really driving at. As a result, Catholics restrict themselves to secondary matters. Instead, they should force the Fundamentalists to say explicitly what they are trying to prove.

However, there is a certain utility—though a decidedly limited one—in demonstrating that the kinds and degrees of punishments inflicted by the Spanish Inquisition were similar to (actually, even lighter than) those meted out by secular courts. It is equally true that, despite what we consider the Spanish Inquisition’s lamentable procedures, many people preferred to have their cases tried by ecclesiastical courts because the secular courts had even fewer safeguards. In fact, historians have found records of people blaspheming in secular courts of the period so they could have their case transferred to an ecclesiastical court, where they would get a better hearing.

The crucial thing for Catholics, once they have obtained some appreciation of the history of the Inquisition, is to explain how such an institution could have been associated with a divinely established Church and why it is not proper to conclude, from the existence of the Inquisition, that the Catholic Church is not the Church of Christ. This is the real point at issue, and this is where any discussion should focus.

To that end, it is helpful to point out that it is easy to see how those who led the Inquisitions could think their actions were justified. The Bible itself records instances where God commanded that formal, legal inquiries—that is, inquisitions—be carried out to expose secret believers in false religions. In Deuteronomy 17:2–5 God said: "If there is found among you, within any of your towns which the Lord your God gives you, a man or woman who does what is evil in the sight of the Lord your God, in transgressing his covenant, and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden, and it is told you and you hear of it; then you shall inquire diligently [note that phrase: "inquire diligently"], and if it is true and certain that such an abominable thing has been done in Israel, then you shall bring forth to your gates that man or woman who has done this evil thing, and you shall stone that man or woman to death with stones."

It is clear that there were some Israelites who posed as believers in and keepers of the covenant with Yahweh, while inwardly they did not believe and secretly practiced false religions, and even tried to spread them (cf. Deut. 13:6–11). To protect the kingdom from such hidden heresy, these secret practitioners of false religions had to be rooted out and expelled from the community. This directive from the Lord applied even to whole cities that turned away from the true religion (Deut. 13:12–18). Like Israel, medieval Europe was a society of Christian kingdoms that were formally consecrated to the Lord Jesus Christ. It is therefore quite understandable that these Catholics would read their Bibles and conclude that for the good of their Christian society they, like the Israelites before them, "must purge the evil from the midst of you" (Deut. 13:5, 17:7, 12). Paul repeats this principle in 1 Corinthians 5:13.

These same texts were interpreted similarly by the first Protestants, who also tried to root out and punish those they regarded as heretics. Luther and Calvin both endorsed the right of the state to protect society by purging false religion. In fact, Calvin not only banished from Geneva those who did not share his views, he permitted and in some cases ordered others to be executed for "heresy" (e.g. Jacques Gouet, tortured and beheaded in 1547; and Michael Servetus, burned at the stake in 1553). In England and Ireland, Reformers engaged in their own ruthless inquisitions and executions. Conservative estimates indicate that thousands of English and Irish Catholics were put to death—many by being hanged, drawn, and quartered—for practicing the Catholic faith and refusing to become Protestant. An even greater number were forced to flee to the Continent for their safety. We point this out to show that the situation was a two-way street; and both sides easily understood the Bible to require the use of penal sanctions to root out false religion from Christian society.

The fact that the Protestant Reformers also created inquisitions to root out Catholics and others who did not fall into line with the doctrines of the local Protestant sect shows that the existence of an inquisition does not prove that a movement is not of God. Protestants cannot make this claim against Catholics without having it backfire on themselves. Neither can Catholics make such a charge against Protestants. The truth of a particular system of belief must be decided on other grounds.
 

backhoeboogie

Well-known member
kolanuraven said:
Mike said:
. They kill anyone who doesn't think exactly like they think they should...............


In the above sentence replace the word "kill" with the word " hate"....and SHA ZAM you have the Ranchers crew.



They HATE anyone who doesn't think exactly like they think they should.


Why do you hate?

Hate? I have pity for some of these poor misguided fools. Sort of like the guy who posted in the Chicago paper advocating gun control and thinking the rest of the U.S. needs to be as safe as Chicago. Have the same rules.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Martin- I take it you are Catholic- as that comes from the Catholic website:
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-inquisition

Just like a Democratic or Republican site is not the best place to get the whole truth on politics -- neither is a Catholic site the place to get the whole truth about the Inquisitions.. I'll rely to some of the more unbiased history sites..

I had read this site the other day that gives the talking points for a Catholic to try and put a good spin on the Inquisitions :roll: and almost posted it because it does show the cruelty Christians have committed in the name of God...

In England and Ireland, Reformers engaged in their own ruthless inquisitions and executions. Conservative estimates indicate that thousands of English and Irish Catholics were put to death—many by being hanged, drawn, and quartered—for practicing the Catholic faith and refusing to become Protestant. An even greater number were forced to flee to the Continent for their safety. We point this out to show that the situation was a two-way street; and both sides easily understood the Bible to require the use of penal sanctions to root out false religion from Christian society.

The fact that the Protestant Reformers also created inquisitions to root out Catholics and others who did not fall into line with the doctrines of the local Protestant sect shows that the existence of an inquisition does not prove that a movement is not of God. Protestants cannot make this claim against Catholics without having it backfire on themselves. Neither can Catholics make such a charge against Protestants. The truth of a particular system of belief must be decided on other grounds.

Just like Dems have no qualms about tearing down Repubs, it seems Catholics have none about ripping into Protestants when trying to put their spin to the subject... :wink:
To me killing someone in the name of God is just as bad as if its Muslims killing Christians or Jews, or Catholic Christians killing Christians and Jews, or Protestant Christians killing Catholic Christians and Jews or any of the above killing Muslims or whatever....
Probably more killing done in the name of religion than for any other reason...
 

Mike

Well-known member
The main point is, how many Catholics are killing Jews, etc. in the name of God today?

Muslims & Mohammed started out right out of block by killing infidels/kafirs and continue killing them each day to this day. All in the name of YOUR God.

250,000,000 dead people at the hand of Mohammed is substantial in anyone's book.
 
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