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Poll for the Progressives (not progressive farmers)

Which political figure do you look up to most?

  • Marx

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Lennin

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0

Ben H

Well-known member
For those who consider themselves part of the Progressive movement or moveon.org, I want to know who you look up to?
 

Goodpasture

Well-known member
Ben, is there simply a lack of education in your part of the world or are you seriously that stupid?

First of all Marx was a political philosopher at a time of tremendous political upheaval and thought. There were dozens of such philosophers around, all suggesting some degree of popular control of the resources of both the nation and of government. A lot of this came out of the American Revolution as well as the French Revolution. There are historic groups that devolved into political parties around the world. Parties like the NDP and Social Credit in Canada come to mind.

Lenin was a dictator who took control of the factors of production and centralized it for his own benefit. What he did with the government is similar to what the Rockefeller's and Gould's and Aster's tried to do with capitalism. Obviously being either totally capitalistic (the way Hitler was) or socialistic (the way Lenin was) is not a good thing. A moderate blending of socialism and capitalism appears to work to the best benefit of the general population, as you can see in the countries of western Europe and Japan, while extreme socialist and capitalist countries seem to fail most of the members of society, providing most of the wealth to a few lucky people while most of the people pay for it..
 

aplusmnt

Well-known member
Goodpasture said:
Obviously being either totally capitalistic (the way Hitler was) or socialistic (the way Lenin was) is not a good thing.

:? Always thought Hitlers condemned Capitalist, that was one of his preaching points against the Jews and used his anti Capitalist platform to promote his agenda against them. Hitler promoted nationalism and changing everything over to Government controlled, sounds more Socialistic to me?
 

Ben H

Well-known member
Lenin was a Marxist.
One of my issues with socialism is that there is never enough, government needs to keep gaining more control. Where is it in Georgia that employees working for some town or State can't get health insurance if they smoke. What's next, no Burger King? We need less government, not more.
 

Goodpasture

Well-known member
aplusmnt said:
:? Always thought Hitlers condemned Capitalist, that was one of his preaching points against the Jews and used his anti Capitalist platform to promote his agenda against them. Hitler promoted nationalism and changing everything over to Government controlled, sounds more Socialistic to me?

The Nazis broke unions, lowered wages, abolished overtime pay, decreased business taxes and increased business subsidies. Their program bears a strong resemblance to the Republican agenda in this country. Socialism requires worker ownership and control of the means of production. In Nazi Germany, private capitalist individuals owned the means of production, and they in turn were frequently controlled by the Nazi party and state. Hitler's other political beliefs place him almost always on the far right. He advocated racism over racial tolerance, eugenics over freedom of reproduction, merit over equality, competition over cooperation, power politics and militarism over pacifism, dictatorship over democracy, capitalism over Marxism, realism over idealism, nationalism over internationalism, exclusiveness over inclusiveness, common sense over theory or science, pragmatism over principle, and even held friendly relations with the Church, even though he was an atheist. Although Hitler railed against capitalism, it was JEWISH OWNED corporate entities that he sought to destroy. Blaming Jewish capitalists for the economic woes of the nation allowed him to come to power. Supporting the non-Jewish companies with slave labor and union busting and reduction in wages proved that he was, in fact, a capitalist, despite his speeches.
 

aplusmnt

Well-known member
Goodpasture said:
aplusmnt said:
:? Always thought Hitlers condemned Capitalist, that was one of his preaching points against the Jews and used his anti Capitalist platform to promote his agenda against them. Hitler promoted nationalism and changing everything over to Government controlled, sounds more Socialistic to me?

The Nazis broke unions, lowered wages, abolished overtime pay, decreased business taxes and increased business subsidies. Their program bears a strong resemblance to the Republican agenda in this country. Socialism requires worker ownership and control of the means of production. In Nazi Germany, private capitalist individuals owned the means of production, and they in turn were frequently controlled by the Nazi party and state. Hitler's other political beliefs place him almost always on the far right. He advocated racism over racial tolerance, eugenics over freedom of reproduction, merit over equality, competition over cooperation, power politics and militarism over pacifism, dictatorship over democracy, capitalism over Marxism, realism over idealism, nationalism over internationalism, exclusiveness over inclusiveness, common sense over theory or science, pragmatism over principle, and even held friendly relations with the Church, even though he was an atheist. Although Hitler railed against capitalism, it was JEWISH OWNED corporate entities that he sought to destroy. Blaming Jewish capitalists for the economic woes of the nation allowed him to come to power. Supporting the non-Jewish companies with slave labor and union busting and reduction in wages proved that he was, in fact, a capitalist, despite his speeches.

---Hitler preached Class warfare, tying to get the people to revolt against Capitalist, primarily the Jews but not exclusive to them. Sounds very similiar to today's Liberals.

---Hitlers programs called for the nationalization of education, health care, transportation, and other major industries.

---They advocated and enforced Gun Control.

---He broke the unions but replaced them with state ran labor organizations. Go look at the mission statement of the National Socialist German Workers Party Platform that replaced the unions and see how they included measures that in effect would redistribute income and war profits, profit-sharing with large industries, nationalization of trusts, extensive development of old-age pension and free education

---Hitler legalized abortion.

---Hitler had many speeches were he condemned Capitalist, and not just the Jews he spoke of favoring "bourgeois" (middle-class)

---Hitler was anti-tobacco, banning smoking in public spaces, bans on advertising.

---Hitler banned medical experiments on animals

---Hitler was green before green was popular he created many national parks and the Nazi party was real involved in the nature movement

---Hitler hated large corporations and wanted them replaced with small bussinesses

---Hitler was an advocate of change


---One of the Hitler posters hung around Germany when he was Chancellor and Hindenburg was still President The Marshall and the corporal fight alongside us for peace and equal rights" You can not get much more left than that.

---Hitler was anti Christian even though he may have given some lip service to the Church to get support, he was very anti-christian and religion.




"The Fuhrer is deeply religous, though completely anti-Christian. He views Christianity as a symptom of decay. Rightly so. It is a branch of the Jewish race... Both [Judaism and Christianity] have no point of contact to the animal element, and thus, in the end, they will be destroyed." Goebbels, Nazi Minister of Propaganda

"You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?" Adolf Hitler



---Hitler increased employment through social work programs like building roads and HWY's

---Hitler provided workers with subsidized holidays for the common worker to promote his class warfare.


---Hitler was named "Man of the Year" in 1938 by Time Magazine. They noted Hitler's anti-capitalistic economic policies:

"Most cruel joke of all, however, has been played by Hitler & Co. on those German capitalists and small businessmen who once backed National Socialism as a means of saving Germany's bourgeois economic structure from radicalism. The Nazi credo that the individual belongs to the state also applies to business. Some businesses have been confiscated outright, on other what amounts to a capital tax has been levied. Profits have been strictly controlled. Some idea of the increasing Governmental control and interference in business could be deduced from the fact that 80% of all building and 50% of all industrial orders in Germany originated last year with the Government. Hard-pressed for food- stuffs as well as funds, the Nazi regime has taken over large estates and in many instances collectivized agriculture, a procedure fundamentally similar to Russian Communism." Time Magazine

---Hitler dealt with inflation by implementing a general Price Freeze on goods.

---Hitler was obviously a racist, but today it is the Liberals that believe non whites are inferior and unable to compete in the free market without favoritism mandated by the government

---Hitler was a fan of and encouraged pornography

---Hitler was anti family and encouraged illegitimacy through his State Registered Human Stud farm.

A few Hitler Quotes that sure sound socialist not conservative

"His private life cannot be an object of scrutiny unless it conflicts with basic principles of National Socialist ideology." Adolf Hitler

"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions." --Adolf Hitler



Many of the evil things that Hitler did can not be labeled as Liberal or Conservative. And in many areas he blurred the lines between the two, to promote his personal agenda. But it is with out doubt that he ran as a Democratic Liberal Leftist. He promised and delivered Liberal Social programs out the kazoo.

It is a leftist spin to try to call Hitler a Conservative, the facts are just not there! Sure you can spin some deeper theological debates about how he fought Communism or that he was more of a Nationalist or try to equate the right with war mongering even though many American wars were started by the left, but actions speak louder than words, he was very left and just a tad to right of someone like Stalin, but still very much a leftist Social Liberal.

You need to own it and accept it, and not try to pass off one of Histories famous Socialist Liberals over to the Right.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
It is a leftist spin to try to call Hitler a Conservative, the facts are just not there!

Neither are the neocons in the Bush Administration- McBush- or the leaders of/direction of the current Republican Party...... :( :(
 

hopalong

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
It is a leftist spin to try to call Hitler a Conservative, the facts are just not there!

Neither are the neocons in the Bush Administration- McBush- or the leaders of/direction of the current Republican Party...... :( :(

Oh great! Give old timer a chance to use his word of the year, he's only capabale of learning a new one every 3 or 4 yrs ao he over uses the ones he just learned a yr ago!!

Give it a rest!!
 

aplusmnt

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
It is a leftist spin to try to call Hitler a Conservative, the facts are just not there!

Neither are the neocons in the Bush Administration- McBush- or the leaders of/direction of the current Republican Party...... :( :(

Can you not discuss a topic at hand with out trying to tie it to Neocons or Bush? You are getting boring, try discussing something else for once! :roll:

The topic at hand is rather Hitler was to the left or right in politics, Bush name has no reason to be brought up in the discussion. Geeezzzz

Do you not realize you lose credibility and seem like a crazy radical? You are the liberal version of Memnpa on this sight. :roll:
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
aplusmnt said:
Oldtimer said:
It is a leftist spin to try to call Hitler a Conservative, the facts are just not there!

Neither are the neocons in the Bush Administration- McBush- or the leaders of/direction of the current Republican Party...... :( :(

Can you not discuss a topic at hand with out trying to tie it to Neocons or Bush? You are getting boring, try discussing something else for once! :roll:

The topic at hand is rather Hitler was to the left or right in politics, Bush name has no reason to be brought up in the discussion. Geeezzzz

Do you not realize you lose credibility and seem like a crazy radical? You are the liberal version of Memnpa on this sight. :roll:

Very simple- just as Goodpasture mentioned- in my view, the current crop of Repubs led by GW, has led us more toward Nazi and Fascist principles than any other administration in modern history....

The reason when you talk to someone about who they want for President- the most common answer is - "who cares- anybody is better than Bush" :shock: :( ....
 

nonothing

Well-known member
I think calling hitler anything but a power wacko is a waste of time...His agenda was personal and followed no specific path other then his own Ideas..To compare any political partys to him is rediculous...He ruled by hate and fear..not political guide lines...he was so caught up in his own quest for world power,even his own country men plotted his demise.....Hitler was if anything a fascist.

communism will always fail,as it involves overall trust to succeed in its principles and capitalism is run by greed.Greed is the strongest human dynamic when given power....Even when people vote,they vote for whats besst for them,not those around them........
 

aplusmnt

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
the current crop of Repubs led by GW, has led us more toward Nazi and Fascist principles than any other administration in modern history....

You need to read above on the things Hitler promised and did before you compare Bush to Nazi's and better yet do some more in depth study of Hitler and the Nazi agenda and how they came into power. Primarily it was class warfare that led their agenda a rallying of the bourgeois (Middle Class) against the Capitalist (or rich). He promised Social programs and to help the Middle Class. That is far from what the Bush administration has did by your own examples.

You need to quit drinking that Liberal Kool-Aid and look deeper into these things for yourself.
 

aplusmnt

Well-known member
nonothing said:
I think calling hitler anything but a power wacko is a waste of time...His agenda was personal and followed no specific path other then his own Ideas..To compare any political partys to him is rediculous...He ruled by hate and fear..not political guide lines...he was so caught up in his own quest for world power,even his own country men plotted his demise.....Hitler was if anything a fascist.

communism will always fail,as it involves overall trust to succeed in its principles and capitalism is run by greed.Greed is the strongest human dynamic when given power....Even when people vote,they vote for whats besst for them,not those around them........

For the most part you are probably correct. That is why I mentioned this in my previous comment.

aplusmnt said:
Many of the evil things that Hitler did can not be labeled as Liberal or Conservative. And in many areas he blurred the lines between the two, to promote his personal agenda. But it is with out doubt that he ran as a Democratic Liberal Leftist. He promised and delivered Liberal Social programs out the kazoo.

But there is some very valuable lessons to be learned from looking at Hitler and the Nazi party, so as history does not repeat itself. Probably more important than rather Hitler was a Liberal or a conservative is what message the German Citizens responded to and that was primarily his Liberal Social Platform.

Many people when they think of Hitler and his evil do not realize he became the Monster he was through gaining support from just average people like me and you. Germans were not all evil little Hitlers, now or then. They were normal people struggling to rebuild their lives after WWI and suffering through times of depression. Their desires and feelings of entitlement that Hitler Promised led them to ELECT this man into power through a Democratic process.

There is some valuable lessons to be learned here more from the citizens side of things than Hitlers actual evil twisted agenda.

Socialist and Communist many times gain power because the citizens allow it to happen because they are promised prosperity by gift instead of earning it like you do in a Capitalist system.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
aplusmnt said:
Oldtimer said:
the current crop of Repubs led by GW, has led us more toward Nazi and Fascist principles than any other administration in modern history....

You need to read above on the things Hitler promised and did before you compare Bush to Nazi's and better yet do some more in depth study of Hitler and the Nazi agenda and how they came into power. Primarily it was class warfare that led their agenda a rallying of the bourgeois (Middle Class) against the Capitalist (or rich). He promised Social programs and to help the Middle Class. That is far from what the Bush administration has did by your own examples.

You need to quit drinking that Liberal Kool-Aid and look deeper into these things for yourself.

No I think it is you that need to do a little studying-- historians have long considered Hitler and his Nazi party as a RIGHT WING EXTREMIST CONSERVATIVE group- that used the repressive war reparations bill, depression conditions of the time, fearmongering, and racial/ethnic hate to build nationalism- and condemn anyone who challenged him as nonpatriots to gain total control....
Goodpasture has about as good an explanation on them as I have seen...

A coalition was formed of various conservative groups under the leadership of Alfred Hugenberg, the head of the German National People's Party. One of the groups that joined this coalition was Adolf Hitler and the National Socialist German Workers Party, a group which had previously been dismissed as an extremist fringe by the more mainstream conservative parties.

While the Liberty Law was not enacted in 1929, the campaign for it was a major factor in bringing Hitler and the Nazis into the political mainstream. Following the defeat, Hitler denounced Hugenberg and said the loss was a result of his poor leadership. Hugenberg and many other conservatives soon found themselves being eclipsed by the Nazis. Hitler would later enact by decree most of the proposals of the Liberty Law after achieving power.
 

aplusmnt

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
aplusmnt said:
Oldtimer said:
the current crop of Repubs led by GW, has led us more toward Nazi and Fascist principles than any other administration in modern history....

You need to read above on the things Hitler promised and did before you compare Bush to Nazi's and better yet do some more in depth study of Hitler and the Nazi agenda and how they came into power. Primarily it was class warfare that led their agenda a rallying of the bourgeois (Middle Class) against the Capitalist (or rich). He promised Social programs and to help the Middle Class. That is far from what the Bush administration has did by your own examples.

You need to quit drinking that Liberal Kool-Aid and look deeper into these things for yourself.

No I think it is you that need to do a little studying-- historians have long considered Hitler and his Nazi party as a RIGHT WING EXTREMIST CONSERVATIVE group- that used the repressive war reparations bill, depression conditions of the time, fearmongering, and racial/ethnic hate to build nationalism- and condemn anyone who challenged him as nonpatriots to gain total control....
Goodpasture has about as good an explanation on them as I have seen...

A coalition was formed of various conservative groups under the leadership of Alfred Hugenberg, the head of the German National People's Party. One of the groups that joined this coalition was Adolf Hitler and the National Socialist German Workers Party, a group which had previously been dismissed as an extremist fringe by the more mainstream conservative parties.

While the Liberty Law was not enacted in 1929, the campaign for it was a major factor in bringing Hitler and the Nazis into the political mainstream. Following the defeat, Hitler denounced Hugenberg and said the loss was a result of his poor leadership. Hugenberg and many other conservatives soon found themselves being eclipsed by the Nazis. Hitler would later enact by decree most of the proposals of the Liberty Law after achieving power.

Historians that share the same Liberal views as people like you and goodpasture. Any leader of any nation has did things that could be construed as Liberal and Conservative, just like Bush has did both. But when Historians start unjustly classifying Conservatives as warmongerers and then linking that to Hitler they are blurring the facts.

The reality is what Hitler personally believed is hard to clarify, but how he came into power was through his socialist platform. Heck the guy said it out of his own mouth that he was a socialist.

The proof is to overpowering. You theorize on political theories, when all along the fruit is there to see. Look at the fruit I listed that shows all the Left, liberal social things he promised and did.

How many Conservatives do you know who support

Abortion
Gun Control
Anti-Tobacco legislation
Animal rights over human
Price freezing vs Free Market setting prices
illegitimacy vs Families
Nationalization of Education vs Parents choice
Nationalization of Health Care
Pornography

Does this Quote sound like something a Conservative would say?

Adolf Hitler said:
"His private life cannot be an object of scrutiny unless it conflicts with basic principles of National Socialist ideology." Adolf Hitler

Ps. the "His" he is talking about in the above quote is in reference to the Homosexual tendencies of one of Hitlers confidants (forgot his name but can find it) Doesn't sound like much of a conservative defending a Homosexual which many of Hitlers closes advisers were and it is rumoured he himself dabbled in.

And if you do not believe me or the other side of History that is out there to be found in the facts not in theology linking. Then believe the man himself.

Adolf Hitler said:
"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions." --Adolf Hitler
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Myth: Hitler was a leftist.


Fact: Nearly all of Hitler's beliefs placed him on the far right.



Summary

Many conservatives accuse Hitler of being a leftist, on the grounds that his party was named "National Socialist." But socialism requires worker ownership and control of the means of production. In Nazi Germany, private capitalist individuals owned the means of production, and they in turn were frequently controlled by the Nazi party and state. True socialism does not advocate such economic dictatorship -- it can only be democratic. Hitler's other political beliefs place him almost always on the far right. He advocated racism over racial tolerance, eugenics over freedom of reproduction, merit over equality, competition over cooperation, power politics and militarism over pacifism, dictatorship over democracy, capitalism over Marxism, realism over idealism, nationalism over internationalism, exclusiveness over inclusiveness, common sense over theory or science, pragmatism over principle, and even held friendly relations with the Church, even though he was an atheist.

Argument

To most people, Hitler's beliefs belong to the extreme far right. For example, most conservatives believe in patriotism and a strong military; carry these beliefs far enough, and you arrive at Hitler's warring nationalism. This association has long been something of an embarrassment to the far right. To deflect such criticism, conservatives have recently launched a counter-attack, claiming that Hitler was a socialist, and therefore belongs to the political left, not the right.

The primary basis for this claim is that Hitler was a National Socialist. The word "National" evokes the state, and the word "Socialist" openly identifies itself as such.

However, there is no academic controversy over the status of this term: it was a misnomer. Misnomers are quite common in the history of political labels. Examples include the German Democratic Republic (which was neither) and Vladimir Zhirinovsky's "Liberal Democrat" party (which was also neither). The true question is not whether Hitler called his party "socialist," but whether or not it actually was.

In fact, socialism has never been tried at the national level anywhere in the world. This may surprise some people -- after all, wasn't the Soviet Union socialist? The answer is no. Many nations and political parties have called themselves "socialist," but none have actually tried socialism. To understand why, we should revisit a few basic political terms.

Perhaps the primary concern of any political ideology is who gets to own and control the means the production. This includes factories, farmlands, machinery, etc. Generally there have been three approaches to this question. The first was aristocracy, in which a ruling elite owned the land and productive wealth, and peasants and serfs had to obey their orders in return for their livelihood. The second is capitalism, which has disbanded the ruling elite and allows a much broader range of private individuals to own the means of production. However, this ownership is limited to those who can afford to buy productive wealth; nearly all workers are excluded. The third (and untried) approach is socialism, where everyone owns and controls the means of production, by means of the vote. As you can see, there is a spectrum here, ranging from a few people owning productive wealth at one end, to everyone owning it at the other.

Socialism has been proposed in many forms. The most common is social democracy, where workers vote for their supervisors, as well as their industry representatives to regional or national congresses. Another proposed form is anarcho-socialism, where workers own companies that would operate on a free market, without any central government at all. As you can see, a central planning committee is hardly a necessary feature of socialism. The primary feature is worker ownership of production.

The Soviet Union failed to qualify as socialist because it was a dictatorship over workers -- that is, a type of aristocracy, with a ruling elite in Moscow calling all the shots. Workers cannot own or control anything under a totalitarian government. In variants of socialism that call for a central government, that government is always a strong or even direct democracy… never a dictatorship. It doesn't matter if the dictator claims to be carrying out the will of the people, or calls himself a "socialist" or a "democrat." If the people themselves are not in control, then the system is, by definition, non-democratic and non-socialist.

And what of Nazi Germany? The idea that workers controlled the means of production in Nazi Germany is a bitter joke. It was actually a combination of aristocracy and capitalism. Technically, private businessmen owned and controlled the means of production. The Nazi "Charter of Labor" gave employers complete power over their workers. It established the employer as the "leader of the enterprise," and read: "The leader of the enterprise makes the decisions for the employees and laborers in all matters concerning the enterprise." (1)

The employer, however, was subject to the frequent orders of the ruling Nazi elite. After the Nazis took power in 1933, they quickly established a highly controlled war economy under the direction of Dr. Hjalmar Schacht. Like all war economies, it boomed, making Germany the second nation to recover fully from the Great Depression, in 1936. (The first nation was Sweden, in 1934. Following Keynesian-like policies, the Swedish government spent its way out of the Depression, proving that state economic policies can be successful without resorting to dictatorship or war.)

Prior to the Nazi seizure of power in 1933, worker protests had spread all across Germany in response to the Great Depression. During his drive to power, Hitler exploited this social unrest by promising workers to strengthen their labor unions and increase their standard of living. But these were empty promises; privately, he was reassuring wealthy German businessmen that he would crack down on labor once he achieved power. Historian William Shirer describes the Nazi's dual strategy:

"The party had to play both sides of the tracks. It had to allow [Nazi officials] Strasser, Goebbels and the crank Feder to beguile the masses with the cry that the National Socialists were truly 'socialists' and against the money barons. On the other hand, money to keep the party going had to be wheedled out of those who had an ample supply of it." (2)
Once in power, Hitler showed his true colors by promptly breaking all his promises to workers. The Nazis abolished trade unions, collective bargaining and the right to strike. An organization called the "Labor Front" replaced the old trade unions, but it was an instrument of the Nazi party and did not represent workers. According to the law that created it, "Its task is to see that every individual should be able… to perform the maximum of work." Workers would indeed greatly boost their productivity under Nazi rule. But they also became exploited. Between 1932 and 1936, workers wages fell, from 20.4 to 19.5 cents an hour for skilled labor, and from 16.1 to 13 cents an hour for unskilled labor. (3) Yet workers did not protest. This was partly because the Nazis had restored order to the economy, but an even bigger reason was that the Nazis would have cracked down on any protest.

There was no part of Nazism, therefore, that even remotely resembled socialism. But what about the political nature of Nazism in general? Did it belong to the left, or to the right? Let's take a closer look:



The politics of Nazism

The political right is popularly associated with the following principles. Of course, it goes without saying that these are generalizations, and not every person on the far right believes in every principle, or disbelieves its opposite. Most people's political beliefs are complex, and cannot be neatly pigeonholed. This is as true of Hitler as anyone. But since the far right is trying peg Hitler as a leftist, it's worth reviewing the tenets popularly associated with the right. These include:

Individualism over collectivism.
Racism or racial segregation over racial tolerance.
Eugenics over freedom of reproduction.
Merit over equality.
Competition over cooperation.
Power politics and militarism over pacifism.
One-person rule or self-rule over democracy.
Capitalism over Marxism.
Realism over idealism.
Nationalism over internationalism.
Exclusiveness over inclusiveness.
Meat-eating over vegetarianism.
Gun ownership over gun control
Common sense over theory or science.
Pragmatism over principle.
Religion over secularism.

Let's review these spectrums one by one, and see where Hitler stood in his own words. Ultimately, Hitler's views are not monolithically conservative -- on a few issues, his views are complex and difficult to label. But as you will see, the vast majority of them belong on the far right:

Individualism over collectivism.

Many conservatives argue that Hitler was a leftist because he subjugated the individual to the state. However, this characterization is wrong, for several reasons.

The first error is in assuming that this is exclusively a liberal trait. Actually, U.S. conservatives take considerable pride in being patriotic Americans, and they deeply honor those who have sacrificed their lives for their country. The Marine Corps is a classic example: as every Marine knows, all sense of individuality is obliterated in the Marines Corps, and one is subject first, foremost and always to the group.

The second error is forgetting that all human beings subscribe to individualism and collectivism. If you believe that you are personally responsible for taking care of yourself, you are an individualist. If you freely belong and contribute to any group -- say, an employing business, church, club, family, nation, or cause -- then you are a collectivist as well. Neither of these traits makes a person inherently "liberal" or "conservative," and to claim that you are an "evil socialist" because you champion a particular group is not a serious argument.

Political scientists therefore do not label people "liberal" or "conservative" on the basis of their individualism or collectivism. Much more important is how they approach their individualism and collectivism. What groups does a person belong to? How is power distributed in the group? Does it practice one-person rule, minority rule, majority rule, or self-rule? Liberals believe in majority rule. Hitler practiced one-person rule. Thus, there is no comparison.

And on that score, conservatives might feel that they are off the hook, too, because they claim to prefer self-rule to one-person rule. But their actions say otherwise. Many of the institutions that conservatives favor are really quite dictatorial: the military, the church, the patriarchal family, the business firm.

Hitler himself downplayed all groups except for the state, which he raised to supreme significance in his writings. However, he did not identify the state as most people do, as a random collection of people in artificially drawn borders. Instead, he identified the German state as its racially pure stock of German or Aryan blood. In Mein Kampf, Hitler freely and interchangeably used the terms "Aryan race," "German culture" and "folkish state." To him they were synonyms, as the quotes below show. There were citizens inside Germany (like Jews) who were not part of Hitler's state, while there were Germans outside Germany (for example, in Austria) who were. But the main point is that Hitler's political philosophy was not really based on "statism" as we know it today. It was actually based on racism -- again, a subject that hits uncomfortably closer to home for conservatives, not liberals.

As Hitler himself wrote:
"The main plank in the Nationalist Socialist program is to abolish the liberalistic concept of the individual and the Marxist concept of humanity and to substitute for them the folk community, rooted in the soil and bound together by the bond of its common blood." (4)

"The state is a means to an end. Its end lies in the preservation and advancement of a community of physically and psychically homogenous creatures. This preservation itself comprises first of all existence as a race… Thus, the highest purpose of a folkish state is concern for the preservation of those original racial elements which bestow culture and create the beauty and dignity of a higher mankind. We, as Aryans, can conceive of the state only as the living organism of a nationality which… assures the preservation of this nationality…" (5)

"The German Reich as a state must embrace all Germans and has the task, not only of assembling and preserving the most valuable stocks of basic racial elements in this people, but slowly and surely of raising them to a dominant position." (6)
And it was in the service of this racial state that Hitler encourage individuals to sacrifice themselves:
"In [the Aryan], the instinct for self-preservation has reached its noblest form, since he willingly subordinates his own ego to the life of the community and, if the hour demands it, even sacrifices it." (7)

"This state of mind, which subordinates the interests of the ego to the conservation of the community, is really the first premise for every truly human culture." (8)

Racism or racial segregation over racial tolerance.
"All the human culture, all the results of art, science, and technology that we see before us today, are almost exclusively the creative product of the Aryan." (9)

"Aryan races -- often absurdly small numerically -- subject foreign peoples, and then… develop the intellectual and organizational capacities dormant within them." (10)

"If beginning today all further Aryan influence on Japan should stop… Japan's present rise in science and technology might continue for a short time; but even in a few years the well would dry up… the present culture would freeze and sink back into the slumber from which it awakened seven decades ago by the wave of Aryan culture." (11)

"Every racial crossing leads inevitably sooner or later to the decline of the hybrid product…" (12)

"It is the function above all of the Germanic states first and foremost to call a fundamental halt to any further bastardization." (13)

"What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our race and our people, the sustenance of our children and the purity of our blood…" (14)

Eugenics over freedom of reproduction
"The folkish philosophy of life must succeed in bringing about that nobler age in which men no longer are concerned with breeding dogs, horses, and cats, but in elevating man himself…" (15)

"The folkish state must make up for what everyone else today has neglected in this field. It must set race in the center of all life. It must take care to keep it pure… It must see to it that only the healthy beget children; that there is only one disgrace: despite one's own sickness and deficiencies, to bring children into the world, and one highest honor: to renounce doing so. And conversely it must be considered reprehensible: to withhold healthy children from the nation. Here the state… must put the most modern medical means in the service of this knowledge. It must declare unfit for propagation all who are in any way visibly sick or who have inherited a disease and therefore pass it on…" (16)
Merit over equality.
"The best state constitution and state form is that which, with the most unquestioned certainty, raises the best minds in the national community to leading position and leading influence. But as in economic life, the able men cannot be appointed from above, but must struggle through for themselves…" (17)

"It must not be lamented if so many men set out on the road to arrive at the same goal: the most powerful and swiftest will in this way be recognized, and will be the victor." (p. 512.)

Competition over cooperation.
"Those who want to live, let them fight, and those who do not want to fight in this world of eternal struggle do not deserve to live." (18)

"It must never be forgotten that nothing that is really great in this world has ever been achieved by coalitions, but that it has always been the success of a single victor. Coalition successes bear by the very nature of their origin the germ of future crumbling, in fact of the loss of what has already been achieved. Great, truly world-shaking revolutions of a spiritual nature are not even conceivable and realizable except as the titanic struggles of individual formations, never as enterprises of coalitions." (19)

"The idea of struggle is old as life itself, for life is only preserved because other living things perish through struggle… In this struggle, the stronger, the more able, win, while the less able, the weak, lose. Struggle is the father of all things… It is not by the principles of humanity that man lives or is able to preserve himself in the animal world, but solely by means of the most brutal struggle… If you do not fight for life, then life will never be won." (20)

Power politics and militarism over pacifism.

Allan Bullock, probably the world's greatest Hitler historian, sums up Hitler's political method in one sentence:
"Stripped of their romantic trimmings, all Hitler's ideas can be reduced to a simple claim for power which recognizes only one relationship, that of domination, and only one argument, that of force." (21)
The following quotes by Hitler portray his rather stunning contempt for pacifism:
"If the German people in its historic development had possessed that herd unity [defined here by Hitler as racial solidarity] which other peoples enjoyed, the German Reich today would doubtless be mistress of the globe. World history would have taken a different course, and no one can distinguish whether in this way we would not have obtained what so many blinded pacifists today hope to gain by begging, whining and whimpering: a peace, supported not by the palm branches of tearful, pacifist female mourners, but based on the victorious sword of a master people, putting the world into the service of a higher culture." (22)

"We must clearly recognize the fact that the recovery of the lost territories is not won through solemn appeals to the Lord or through pious hopes in a League of Nations, but only by force of arms." (23)

"In actual fact the pacifistic-humane idea is perfectly all right perhaps when the highest type of man has previously conquered and subjected the world to an extent that makes him the sole ruler of this earth… Therefore, first struggle and then perhaps pacifism." (24)
One-person rule or self-rule over democracy.
"The young [Nazi] movement is in its nature and inner organization anti-parliamentarian; that is, it rejects… a principle of majority rule in which the leader is degraded to the level of mere executant of other people's wills and opinion." (25)

"The [Nazi party] should not become a constable of public opinion, but must dominate it. It must not become a servant of the masses, but their master!" (26)

"By rejecting the authority of the individual and replacing it by the numbers of some momentary mob, the parliamentary principle of majority rule sins against the basic aristocratic principle of Nature…" (27)

"For there is one thing we must never forget… the majority can never replace the man. And no more than a hundred empty heads make one wise man will an heroic decision arise from a hundred cowards." (28)

"There must be no majority decisions, but only responsible persons, and the word 'council' must be restored to its original meaning. Surely every man will have advisers by his side, but the decision will be made by one man." (29)

"When I recognized the Jew as the leader of the Social Democracy, the scales dropped from my eyes." (30)

"The Western democracy of today is the forerunner of Marxism…" (31)

"Only a knowledge of the Jews provides the key with which to comprehend the inner, and consequently real, aims of Social Democracy." (32)

Capitalism over Marxism.


Bullock writes of Hitler's views on Marxism:
"While Hitler's attitude towards liberalism was one of contempt, towards Marxism he showed an implacable hostility… Ignoring the profound differences between Communism and Social Democracy in practice and the bitter hostility between the rival working class parties, he saw in their common ideology the embodiment of all that he detested -- mass democracy and a leveling egalitarianism as opposed to the authoritarian state and the rule of an elite; equality and friendship among peoples as opposed to racial inequality and the domination of the strong; class solidarity versus national unity; internationalism versus nationalism." (33)
As Hitler himself would write:
"The German state is gravely attacked by Marxism." (34)

"In the years 1913 and 1914, I… expressed the conviction that the question of the future of the German nation was the question of destroying Marxism." (35)

"In the economic sphere Communism is analogous to democracy in the political sphere." (36)

"The Marxists will march with democracy until they succeed in indirectly obtaining for their criminal aims the support of even the national intellectual world, destined by them for extinction." (37)

"Marxism itself systematically plans to hand the world over to the Jews." (38)

"The Jewish doctrine of Marxism rejects the aristocratic principle of Nature and replaces the eternal privilege of power and strength by the mass of numbers and their dead weight." (39)

Realism over idealism.

Hitler was hardly an "idealist" in the sense that political scientists use the term. The standard definition of an idealist is someone who believes that cooperation and peaceful coexistence can occur among peoples. A realist, however, is someone who sees the world as an unstable and dangerous place, and prepares for war, if not to deter it, then to survive it. It goes without saying that Hitler was one of the greatest realists of all time. Nonetheless, Hitler had his own twisted utopia, which he described:
"We are not simple enough, either, to believe that it could ever be possible to bring about a perfect era. But this relieves no one of the obligation to combat recognized errors, to overcome weaknesses, and strive for the ideal. Harsh reality of its own accord will create only too many limitations. For that very reason, however, man must try to serve the ultimate goal, and failures must not deter him, any more than he can abandon a system of justice merely because mistakes creep into it…" (40)

"The same boy who feels like throwing up when he hears the tirades of a pacifist 'idealist' is ready to give up his life for the ideal of his nationality." (41)

Nationalism over internationalism.
"The nationalization of our masses will succeed only when… their international poisoners are exterminated." (42)

"The severest obstacle to the present-day worker's approach to the national community lies not in the defense of his class interests, but in his international leadership and attitude which are hostile to the people and the fatherland." (43)

"Thus, the reservoir from which the young [Nazi] movement must gather its supporters will primarily be the masses of our workers. Its work will be to tear these away from the international delusion… and lead them to the national community…" (44)
Exclusiveness over inclusiveness.
"Thus men without exception wander about in the garden of Nature; they imagine that they know practically everything and yet with few exceptions pass blindly by one of the most patent principles of Nature: the inner segregation of the species of all living beings on earth." (45)

"The greatness of every mighty organization embodying an idea in this world lies in the religious fanaticism and intolerance with which, fanatically convinced of its own right, it intolerantly imposes its will against all others." (46)

Meat-eating over vegetarianism.

It may seem ridiculous to include this issue in a review of Hitler's politics, but, believe it or not, conservatives on the Internet frequently equate Hitler's vegetarianism with the vegetarianism practised by liberals concerned about the environment and the ethical treatment of animals.

Hitler's vegetarianism had nothing to do with his political beliefs. He became a vegetarian shortly after the death of his girlfriend and half-niece, Geli Raubal. Their relationship was a stormy one, and it ended in her apparent suicide. There were rumors that Hitler had arranged her murder, but Hitler would remain deeply distraught over her loss for the rest of his life. As one historian writes:
"Curiously, shortly after her death, Hitler looked with disdain on a piece of ham being served during breakfast and refused to eat it, saying it was like eating a corpse. From that moment on, he refused to eat meat." (47)
Hitler's vegetarianism, then, was no more than a phobia, triggered by an association with his niece's death.

Gun ownership over gun control

Perhaps one of the pro-gun lobby's favorite arguments is that if German citizens had had the right to keep and bear arms, Hitler would have never been able to tyrannize the country. And to this effect, pro-gun advocates often quote the following:
"1935 will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future." - Adolf Hitler
However, this quote is almost certainly a fraud. There is no reputable record of him ever making it: neither at the Nuremberg rallies, nor in any of his weekly radio addresses. Furthermore, there was no reason for him to even make such a statement; for Germany already had strict gun control as a term of surrender in the Treaty of Versailles. The Allies had wanted to make Germany as impotent as possible, and one of the ways they did that was to disarm its citizenry. Only a handful of local authorities were allowed arms at all, and the few German citizens who did possess weapons were already subject to full gun registration. Seen in this light, the above quote makes no sense whatsoever.

The Firearms Policy Journal (January 1997) writes:
"The Nazi Party did not ride to power confiscating guns. They rode to power on the inability of the Weimar Republic to confiscate their guns. They did not consolidate their power confiscating guns either. There is no historical evidence that Nazis ever went door to door in Germany confiscating guns. The Germans had a fetish about paperwork and documented everything. These searches and confiscations would have been carefully recorded. If the documents are there, let them be presented as evidence."
On April 12, 1928, five years before Hitler seized power, Germany passed the Law on Firearms and Ammunition. This law substantially tightened restrictions on gun ownership in an effort to curb street violence between Nazis and Communists. The law was ineffectual and poorly enforced. It was not until March 18, 1938 -- five years after Hitler came to power -- that the Nazis passed the German Weapons Law, their first known change in the firearm code. And this law actually relaxed restrictions on citizen firearms.

Common sense over theory or science.

Hitler was notorious for his anti-intellectualism:
"The youthful brain should in general not be burdened with things ninety-five percent of which it cannot use and hence forgets again… In many cases, the material to be learned in the various subjects is so swollen that only a fraction of it remains in the head of the individual pupil, and only a fraction of this abundance can find application, while on the other hand it is not adequate for the man working and earning his living in a definite field." (48)

"Knowledge above the average can be crammed into the average man, but it remains dead, and in the last analysis sterile knowledge. The result is a man who may be a living dictionary but nevertheless falls down miserably in all special situations and decisive moments in life." (49)

"The folkish state must not adjust its entire educational work primarily to the inoculation of mere knowledge, but to the breeding of absolutely healthy bodies. The training of mental abilities is only secondary. And here again, first place must be taken by the development of character, especially the promotion of will-power and determination, combined with the training of joy in responsibility, and only in last place comes scientific schooling." (50)

"A people of scholars, if they are physically degenerate, weak-willed and cowardly pacifists, will not storm the heavens, indeed, they will not be able to safeguard their existence on this earth." (51)

Pragmatism over principle.
"The question of the movement's inner organization is one of expediency and not of principle." (52)

Religion over secularism.

Hitler's views on religion were complex. Although ostensibly an atheist, he considered himself a cultural Catholic, and frequently evoked God, the Creator and Providence in his writings. Throughout his life he would remain an envious admirer of the Christian Church and its power over the masses. Here is but one example:
"We can learn by the example of the Catholic Church. Though its doctrinal edifice… comes into collision with exact science and research, it is none the less unwilling to sacrifice so much as one little syllable of its dogmas. It has recognized quite correctly that its power of resistance does not lie in its lesser or greater adaptation to the scientific findings of the moment, which in reality are always fluctuating, but rather in rigidly holding to dogmas once established, for it is only such dogmas which lend to the whole body the character of faith. And so it stands today more firmly than ever." (53)
Hitler also saw a useful purpose for the Church:
"The great masses of people do not consist of philosophers; precisely for the masses, [religious] faith is often the sole foundation of a moral attitude… For the political man, the value of a religion must be estimated less by its deficiencies than by the virtue of a visibly better substitute. As long as this appears to be lacking, what is present can be demolished only by fools or criminals." (54)
Hitler thus advocated freedom of religious belief. Although he would later press churches into the service of Nazism, often at the point of a gun, Hitler did not attempt to impose a state religion or mandate the basic philosophical content of German religions. As long as they did not interfere with his program, he allowed them to continue fuctioning. And this policy was foreshadowed in his writings:
"For the political leader the religious doctrines and institutions of his people must always remain inviolable; or else he has no right to be in politics…" (55)

"Political parties have nothing to do with religious problems, as long as these are not alien to the nation, undermining the morals and ethics of the race; just as religion cannot be amalgamated with the scheming of political parties." (56)

"Worst of all, however, is the devastation wrought by the misuse of religious conviction for political ends." (57)

"Therefore, let every man be active, each in his own denomination if you please, and let every man take it as his first and most sacred duty to oppose anyone who in his activity by word or deed steps outside the confines of his religious community and tries to butt into the other." (58)
Hitler was raised a Catholic, even going to school for two years at the monastery at Lambauch, Austria. As late as 24 he still called himself a Catholic, but somewhere along the way he became an atheist. It is highly doubtful that this was an intellectual decision, as a reading of his disordered thoughts in Mein Kampf will attest. The decision was most likely a pragmatic one, based on power and personal ambition. Bullock reveals an interesting anecdote showing how these considerations worked on the young Hitler. After five years of eking out a miserable existence in Vienna and four years of war, Hitler walked into his first German Worker's Party meeting:
"'Under the dim light shed by a grimy gas-lamp I could see four people sitting around a table…' As Hitler frankly acknowledges, this very obscurity was an attraction. It was only in a party which, like himself, was beginning at the bottom that he had any prospect of playing a leading part and imposing his ideas. In the established parties there was no room for him, he would be a nobody." (59)
Hitler probably realized that a frustrated artist and pipe-dreamer like himself would have no chance of achieving power in the world-wide, 2000-year old Christian Church. It was most likely for this reason that he rejected Christianity and pursued a political life instead. Yet, curiously enough, he never renounced his membership in the Catholic Church, and the Church never excommunicated him. Nor did the Church place his Mein Kampf on the Index of Prohibited Books, in spite of its knowledge of his atrocities. Later the Church would come under intense criticism for its friendly and cooperative relationship with Hitler. A brief review of this history is instructive.

In 1933, the Catholic Center Party cast its large and decisive vote in favor of Hitler's Enabling Bill. This bill essentially gave Chancellor Hitler the sweeping dictatorial powers he was seeking. Historian Guenter Lewy describes a meeting between Hitler and the German Catholic authorities shortly afterwards:
"On 26 April 1933 Hitler had a conversation with Bishop Berning and Monsignor Steinmann [the Catholic leadership in Germany]. The subject was the common fight against liberalism, Socialism and Bolshevism, discussed in the friendliest terms. In the course of the conversation Hitler said that he was only doing to the Jews what the church had done to them over the past fifteen hundred years. The prelates did not contradict him." (60)
As anyone familiar with Christian history knows, the Church has always been a primary source of anti-Semitism. Hitler's anti-Semitism therefore found a receptive audience among Catholic authorities. The Church also had an intense fear and hatred of Russian communism, and Hitler's attack on Russia was the best that could have happened. The Jesuit Michael Serafin wrote: "It cannot be denied that [Pope] Pius XII's closest advisors for some time regarded Hitler's armoured divisions as the right hand of God." (61) As Pope Pius himself would say after Germany conquered Poland: "Let us end this war between brothers and unite our forces against the common enemy of atheism" -- Russia. (62)

Once Hitler assumed power, he signed a Concordat, or agreement, with the Catholic Church. Eugenio Pacelli (the man who would eventually become Pope Pius XII) was the Vatican diplomat who drew up the Concordat, and he considered it a triumph. In return for promises which Hitler increasingly broke, the Church dissolved all Catholic organizations in Germany, including the Catholic Center Party. Bishops were to take an oath of loyalty to the Nazi regime. Clergy were to see to the pastoral care of Germany's armed forces (regardless of what those armed forces did). (63)

The Concordat eliminated all Catholic resistance to Hitler; after this, the German bishops gave Hitler their full and unqualified support. A bishops' conference at Fulda, 1933, resulted in agreement with Hitler's case for extending Lebensraum, or German territory. (64) Bishop Bornewasser told a congregation of Catholic young people at Trier: "With our heads high and with firm steps we have entered the new Reich and are ready to serve it body and soul." (65) Vicar-General Steinman greeted each Berlin mass with the shout, "Heil Hitler!" (66)

Hitler, on the other hand, kept up his attack on the Church. Nazi bands stormed into the few remaining Catholic institutions, beat up Catholic youths and arrested Catholic officials. The Vatican was dismayed, but it did not protest. (67) In some instances, it was hard to tell if the Church supported its own persecution. Hitler muzzled the independent Catholic press (about 400 daily papers in 1933) and subordinated it to Goebbels' Ministry of Propaganda and Enlightenment. Yet soon the Catholic Press was doing more than what the Nazis required of it -- for example, coordinating their Nazi propaganda to prepare the people for the 1940 offensive against the West. (68) Throughout the war, the Catholic press would remain one of the Third Reich's best disseminators of propaganda.

Pacelli became the new Pope Pius XII in 1939, and he immediately improved relations with Hitler. He broke protocol by personally signing a letter in German to Hitler expressing warm hopes of friendly relations. Shortly afterwards, the Church celebrated Hitler's birthday by ringing bells, flying swastika flags from church towers and holding thanksgiving services for the Fuhrer. (69) Ringing church bells to celebrate and affirm the bishops' allegiance to the Reich would become quite common throughout the war; after the German army conquered France, the church bells rang for an entire week, and swastikas flew over the churches for ten days.

But perhaps the greatest failure of Pope Pius XII was his silence over the Holocaust, even though he knew it was in progress. Although there are many heroic stories of Catholics helping Jews survive the Holocaust, they do not include Pope Pius, the Holy See, or the German Catholic authorities. When a reporter asked Pius why he did not protest the liquidation of the Jews, the Pope answered, "Dear friend, do not forget that millions of Catholics are serving in the German armies. Am I to involve them in a conflict of conscience?" (70) As perhaps the world's greatest moral leader, he was charged with precisely that responsibility.

The history of Hitler and the Church reveals a relationship built on mutual distrust and philosophical rejection, but also shared goals, benefits, admiration, envy, friendliness, and ultimate alliance.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-hitler.htm
 

MoGal

Well-known member
Since you all are talking about Hitler, do a search on SCHERFF.... I think that's how its spelled...... anyway George Bush Sr's german name is Scherff.... he's a relative of the man who was under Hitler. Dual citizenship...... do a search and enlighten yourself.
 
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