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PreConditioning question

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the_jersey_lilly_2000

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I've been reading on preconditioning calves, not alot of cut and dry articles available on the internet on what shots are required, and if your selling at a salebarn, how do the buyers know the difference if your calves have or have not been preconditioned. Just from experience sitting and watching at our local salebarn, no one ever asks "are they" "have they been" preconditioned. The most informative article I've found so far

http://www.iowavma.org/displaycommon.cfm?an=6#IVMA/ICA_PRECONDITIONING_PROGRAM_GUIDELINES_

says that all shots and such must be given by a vet. Course the article is from Iowa. Do you all have a vet come out and give shots, or are you like us and give the shots yourselves? This article talks about an ear tag, that identifies an animal that's been preconditioned.

As of right now, when we work calves, we give Vibrio Lepto, Black Leg (8way) and worm with Ivomec Plus. I know this isn't all the shots needed in a preconditioning program.
Do vaccine programs differ in different area's? (I would think they do) but not sure.

Any of you that precondition, gimme your comments on what you do, what you don't do, and how much better the return is if not done.

Thanks, Lilly
 

Faster horses

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Well, Lily, to my way of thinking, Vibrio and Lepto is not a requied part of preconditioning. Those are diseases of breeding animals, not feeder animals. We give that to our heifers retained for replacements, but not to feeder calves.

Preconditioning is a big deal up here. You might not get a bonus for having done it, but you sure get a deduction in the sale barn if you don't. Many of the in-country buyers demand that they be pre-conditioned. Mostly what they want vaccinated for are RESPIRATORY diseases. Homopholis somus, Pastuerella, BVD, PI3 and IBR, and the blackleg/overeating shots.

There are many vaccines out there. If you watch Superior Video Auction you will see many programs. Pfizer has a good program, Intervet, etc. Giving shots from one company seem to compliment each other. Most are modified live vaccines.

We do things a bit different, because I won't allow modified live vaccine on the place. So we use what used to be Grand Labs, (now Duravet, I think) Virashied with somnus for IBR, BVD, PI3 and somnus. Then if we have to, we give a pastuerella shot and of course Vision 7 for blackleg. You can get Vision 7 with Somnus too. My sources tell me Vision 7 and Alpha 7 are the best vaccines for overeating. Feeding a good mineral helps the immune system and helps the vaccines work better.

I have some research from Texas A&M on some studies they did that shows how important mineral is to the calves before they hit the feedlot. Many less pulls on those calves, even though both non-mineral and mineral calves had the same preconditioning shots.

Hope this helps.
 

the_jersey_lilly_2000

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Sometimes the Vibrio Lepto we only give to our replacements and cows, not the steers or heifers that are goin to the salebarn.
My main question tho is, since our salebarn doesn't ever say anything about any of the animals that go thru the ring, how would the buyers know that they'd been backgrounded. I mean, once our program is in place, should I request them sell them in lots, and specifically say, "these calves have been pre conditioned"? I've just never seen it happen and wondered. I may call the man that own's our salebarn and just ask him what he would do in a situation like that. I'm sure he'd know, he's got several feed yards in other parts of the state.
Do ya'll give the shots yourselves? or have a vet do it? That article I posted says to be concidered "preconditioned" all shots had to be administered by a liscensed vet. That seems like it would Kill any profit you might make by preconditioning, havin to have the vet out, his fee per head, his (last time I called him out) $60 call out fee. Now on the other hand if you can give the shots yourself, I can see where you could make a better profit doin this.

boy what a subject to git my brain off into on a rainy sunday mornin.
Yes it's rainin, I mean REAL rain, with thunder and lightnin and everthang.....woooo hoooooo......let er rip!!!
 

Angus Breeder

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Jersey, As a registered breeder we have nothing going through the salebarns, however this is what our commercial bull customers tell me. Pick a program as FH mentioned weather it be Intervet, Pfizer, or Durvet. Buy all of the required vaccines at the same time from your local vet. Have him/her document exactly how many doses and of what. When you notify the sale barn that you are going to have X number of calves selling that day also tell him that they were on the Pfizer program and you have an affadavidt stating from the vet how many doses of what was given and how many times. That is what works up here. On the other hand if you have run calves through the program they would be eligable for sale on Superior, just something to think of.
 

John SD

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I agree with what FH wrote, but I'm curious why you don't use MLV vaccines on your place? Ive always been under the impression the MLV vaccines generally provide superior immunity compared to killed vaccines. The catch is to use MLV only in non-pregnant animals.

I attended a presentation recently that included the Pfizer vet products rep. Pfizer's MLV 4-way virus vaccines are now cleared for use in calves nursing pregnant cows, IF the cows are current on their own virus vaccination program. To implement a MLV program like that in nursing calves the cows would also need to be vaccinated each and every year.

Since I don't vaccinate my cows I use the Virashield 6 + Somnus in my calves for the fall shots. Yes, the vaccine used to be Grand Labs, now under the Novartis brand name. I also gave my calves Pfizer's One Shot Ultra 7 for 7-way clostridial and pastuerella. The yearling heifers I keep going into my herd get a MLV PregGuard shot including lepto/vibrio in the spring.

The local vet gives us a "shot sheet" documenting what vaccines and parasite control were used on the calves to the salebarn and buyers. We (neighbors and I) do the work ourselves.

Around "here" they also have special weaned calf sales where the calves are required to have all fall shots, likely a booster series, and be weaned at least for a minimum specified period.

I've never heard of anyone ever giving lepto/vibrio to spring-born heifer calves in the fall. Bangs vaccination, yes. The lepto/vibrio vac is usually done when the heifers are at least a year of age. There would be no point in giving lepto/vibrio to steers.
 

Angus Breeder

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FH, killed vaccines can be just as effective as MLV's if and only if you give the booster at the exact same time as reccomended by the manufacturer. In some situations I actually prefer the killed vaccines. Seems like on a hot day you will have a better response to a killed as a MLV. Just something I have noticed.
 

cowsense

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Lilly- We background our calves and they are completely pre-conditioned prior to weaning (Pyramid 4+- IBR,BVD,PRSV,PI3 etc. )( 8 way Blackleg with Somnugen) pour on Ivermectin as well as any missed castrations or dehornings. This program seems to get them on feed with the least amount of sickness we've found. Our health program is announced on sale of feeders but it is hard to tell if there is a premium or not. Many of the feedlots feel that they cannot take a chance and redo all the shots according to their own protocols! Some of the major pharmaceutical companies do offer listing services for herds that follow their treatment protocols. While we do all the shots ourselves our Vet has offered to sign affadavits stating the vacc. program we do. Our next step is probably to enter and become accredited under the Quality Starts Here/ Verified Beef Production programs. This audited program outlines the basics of proper drug/vaccine handling and inoculation as well as proper livestock handling etc. We also have everything IDed with RFID tags and will have all birthdates verified before point of sale! This may bring more of a premium than the health program at present!
 

Faster horses

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I forgot BRSV. That is included in the IBR, BVD, PI3 vaccines.

John, at the risk of boring everyone I will try to tell you why we use a killed vaccine, not not just any killed vaccine, but ViraShield, because I think it is far and away the very best.

I did a lot of research before going this way and we have been on this program for many years. The past 2 years we had 100% calf crop and did not treat a calf. So first of all, "if it ain't broke, why fix it?"

Please note, that I did not advise anyone else NOT to use a killed vaccine. I am in a spot where I have access to information easily; and believe it or not, in talking to veterinarians is why I chose the killed vaccines. There are things that go on with MLV that aren't noted publicly. It is my belief that a lot of money has been thrown at the MLV so they would get high use.

I had a licensed vet that has a ranch with registered cattle, tell me that since he quit MLV he has not had a 'dink calf' born. He said the virus in the MLV can cross the placenta and get into the uterus and cause the 'dink calves' to be born. He went on to say that many commercial breeders just think they are 'preemies'. They are not. Registered folks who AI, then clean up with a different breed, KNOW they are not merely preemies. So, point 1.

Point 2. When we started using Virashield it was the only one that offered protection against two strains of BVD.

Point 3. Our program is very simple. We give Vision 7 at branding, and that is it until our fall preconditionin. We used to give Virashield at branding until a vet that I trust immensly, told me that the calves were too young when we branded to utilize that vaccine. So we quit giving it at branding. Haven't noticed one thing different. Except the savings in cost...

Point 4. Our cows are not on MLV. We boost them every fall with ViraShield 5 plus VL5 (now Virashield 6.) VL5 is Vibrio and 5 Strains of Lepto. We have a closed herd, have no problems and there is no need to change. IMHO

We give the replacement heifer calves Virashield 5 plus VL5 in the fall. Then boost them after they are weaned. Then, if we remember, we give them Virashield plus VL5 in the spring when we year brand them. Sometimes we forget. But doesn't cause any problems because they had both shots in the fall. The vets encourage spring vaccination on virgin heifers being bred for the first time so we try to do that.

Published from a Dennis Hermesch, DVM:
"Most killed products don't provide high enough protective titers. that is not the case with ViraShield. Because of the XtendIII adjuvant, the entire Vira Shield line gives us high initial protection and keeps it there for an extented period. The is extremely important in any cattle situation, whether it is beef or dairy. You get a year's protection from ViraShield."

The 'secret' to ViraShields killed viral products working so well is the technologically superior adjuvant Xtend III which, combined with ViraShields proven effective antigen, produces the highest level of immunity possible in a killed product. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do not want anyone to think I am trying to sell them ViraShield. I am not. This post was in response to a question directed at me asking why we don't use ML vaccines.

BTW, Lilly, we buy the vaccine from our local vet and give the shots ourselves. So far, our country order buyer has never questioned it.
 

Buyer

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Lilly
Have a signed affadvidt in the office at the sale barn with all vac's given and serial numbers would be a plus. Have them announce that when your calves come in. Remember the sale barn is working for you. All the barns up here push shots. A happy buyer will be back.
 

John SD

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FH, thanks for the explanation, and I didn't find it boring in any way! :D As noted before, I use ViraShield myself for my fall shots in calves. To my knowledge, it is the only killed product my vet sells. It works and is safe for vaccinating nursing calves on pregnant cows.

I also have neighbors who give the Virashield breeding vaccine to their cows at fall preg check time instead of using MLV in the spring. This is mostly due to time considerations in the spring trying to work both cows and calves and getting the job done in a day with large herds and limited crew.
 

ET Doc

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Lilly,
You just have to keep at it with your salebarn. As little as 15 years ago, we weren't getting paid for pre-conditioning our calves in this area, but we keep giving the auctioneer our sheets stating what vaccines the calves had, and eventually the buyers took hold and started paying up for the extra work and expense.
This fall, a fellow brought in 300 real nice black and baldy calves that hadn't had their fall shots. He got 5-6 cents a pound less than the calves that did have their shots. He went home with about $9000 less than he could have had.
We've used Virashield 5 and 7-way blackleg with Haemophilus for many years, both at branding time and in Sept. at pre-conditioning. The past few years we've added One Shot Pasturella to the fall shots.
Most of the order buyers want a signed statement of what the calves have been given. If they buy a set of calves, let's say 3 loads, and they are sending them to 3 different places, they will get the office help at the barn to photostat the "shot sheet" so they can send a copy to each buyer, plus keep a copy for their records.
I would echo what FH and others have said, that the Adjuvant in Vira Shield 5 makes it a superior killed vaccine.
We had purebred cattle for most of my ranching life, and I was always afraid of producing a persistantly infected, PI calf that slipped through and went into someone's herd, creating a BVD wreck, which is why the killed vaccine.
I don't sell vaccine, nor administer it except to our own cattle, but I do sign the shot sheets for my clients, since I have a good veterinarian/client/patient relationship by doing other work on their ranches, preg checking, ultrasounding, etc., so I know their operations.
 

txag

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jl, you might want to contact Jordan Cattle Auction.

http://www.jordancattle.com/

keep in mind that around here, pre-conditioning not only means vaccinations, but also weaned & fed (typically 45 days) before the sale.
 

WB

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Faster horses: I agree wholeheartedly with your feelings on a killed vaccine and vira-shield. I was wondering do you give the alpha 7 with or without h. somnus at branding time.
 

Faster horses

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The only shot we give at branding is Vision 7 period. I realize Alpha 7 is as good as Vision 7, we just like Vision 7 as that is what we have used for several years now. Both Vision 7 and Alpha 7 are the best as far as overeating is concerned.

As far as somnus goes, we never have given that at branding, but we probably wouldn't for the same reason we quit ViraShield at branding. Our calves are too young to utilize it. The calf's immune system fights off things until a certain age, and that is why this vet said it was a waste to use it. I do know, too, that others use it and that is fine. We just don't have the need for it.
 

Kato

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We've used MLV vaccines for years, and have had no problems. We vaccinate the cows with killed vaccine in the spring, but that's mainly because the only time they go through the chute is when they are trucked to pasture, and most of them are already bred. At the same time we vaccinate any calves over 30 days with Resvac 4/Somubac, One Shot and blackleg vaccine. The calves will get those same shots again at weaning. (Somnus vaccine is one to watch. If you are going to do it you absolutely must give a booster. To just give one shot is a waste of time. There is a lot more haemophilus around than most people realize too. ) Replacement heifers get modified live again pre-breeding. By the time they hit the cow herd, they've had three shots of modified live.

We very seldom ever have a calf with respiratory disease in the fall. In the past five years the only ones who would cause a problem were those born in the pasture that didn't get that first shot.

They have a good challenge too, because they are usually just across the fence from auction mart feeders. The difference between the two bunches of calves is astounding. You have no problem telling, in among the auction calves, which ones had a health program, and which ones didn't. A bunch of calve sometimes starts to get sick, and you will see one by one, every calf that came from that home will make it to the sick pen. Then there will be another bunch that you never have to touch.

Question ... what is this 'overeating' vaccination all about? It's something I've never heard of. :???:
 

Faster horses

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As far as I know, all blackleg vaccines contain something for entertoxemia. (overeating disease.) That is what the C&D mentioned on the label is in the vaccine for; so the calves won't get overeating disease. Some vaccines are better than others, Vision 7 and Alpha 7 being the two best ones according to many veterinarians.

If you haven't heard of overeating, you are very lucky.
 

Denny

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John SD said:
FH, thanks for the explanation, and I didn't find it boring in any way! :D As noted before, I use ViraShield myself for my fall shots in calves. To my knowledge, it is the only killed product my vet sells. It works and is safe for vaccinating nursing calves on pregnant cows.

I also have neighbors who give the Virashield breeding vaccine to their cows at fall preg check time instead of using MLV in the spring. This is mostly due to time considerations in the spring trying to work both cows and calves and getting the job done in a day with large herds and limited crew.

We use a killed vaccine mainly because of a major scour outbreak 4 years ago we now give a scourboss 9 shot Triangle 9 and a Black Leg and pour with Ivomec useally do it the first week of Jan.Works well branding day we just sort the cows off and work calves.My vet thought maybe the power of the immunity in the spring shots could be wearing thin by calveing.I have know idea if that's the case but once I changed my vaccination schedules my sickness problem's have greatly decreased.
 

Faster horses

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We do, to only our replacement heifers.

We time the first shot so that the buyer can give the second shot at the right time. We sell in the country, so we usually have a good idea of when the calves go.

One thing that gets me, is these shots they call ONE-SHOT, aren't. They need to be boosted also.
 

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