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Put up or shut up

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Cal

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Put up or shut up
By Tony Snow

Jan 5, 2006


Add "domestic spying" to the long list of botched attempts to unseat George W. Bush. The New York Times' would-be bombshell alleging Nixonian snoopery has detonated in its builders' faces. The story not only hasn't shaken Washington, it has restored the president's standing by reinforcing popular suspicions that he, unlike leading Democrats, takes seriously (a) terrorists' intentions and (b) the necessity of winning the war.

The seriousness gap is important. While the president attempts to press the case for continued engagement, key Democrats respond with hollow grade-school cant. Not even they believe their claims that the president is a liar, a slaver, a BTK-type voyeur, a draft-dodging mass murderer. Nor do they buy the alternative scenario -- that George Walker Bush is a feckless dope in the thrall of the Rasputin-like Dick Cheney and a cadre of cigar-munching, rib-eye slurping, back-slapping, conniving oilmen.

Similarly, the media have failed to depict the Commander-in-Chief as a petrol-punk. One-by-one, the would-be exposes have crumbled into dust: Abu Ghraib, the Koran in the Guantanamo toilet, secret prisons, horrifying interrogations, endless Halliburton conspiracy theories and, now, the "domestic spying" tale.

For whatever reason, the president's critics are dodging the one question that really matters: Is the war morally justifiable? Americans care about such things. We have a national desire to do the right things for the right reasons at the right times.

Until recently, just-war questions were easy to answer: Nations had a right to fight back against aggressors and oppressors: Japan bombs, FDR responds.

But what happens when the invader isn't a nation, doesn't have formally constituted or uniformed armies, doesn't play by rules, doesn't declare its martial intentions and doesn't even have leaders with whom one might reason or negotiate?

And what do you do when that enemy doesn't want to seize ground but merely wants to commit scattered acts of mass destruction? How should the world's pre-eminent superpower respond to jihadis who strike indiscriminately -- against Christians, Jews and Muslims, on the soil of Asia, Africa, Europe, America and Arabia?

Statecraft won't do the trick. The Clinton administration tried it after al Qaeda attacked New York (the first World Trade Center bombing), Saudi Arabia, Kenya, Tanzania and Yemen. It turned down the chance to take custody of Osama bin Laden, citing legal concerns, and instead tried to scare him by bombing some empty tents and taking out the night watchman at a Sudanese aspirin factory.

Bin Laden interpreted these actions as weaknesses and ordered the hijackers to board their jets on Sept. 11. Team Clinton responded to the killing of 500 Americans by attempting a mix of diplomacy -- negotiations through third parties -- and symbolic action. Al Qaeda responded by killing another 3,000.

That scenario lays the groundwork for a new definition of a just war. A just war is one in which peace is not an option -- and the alternative to war is not tranquility but carnage. As Michael Novak argued three years ago, "The aim of a just war is the blocking of great evil, the restoration of peace and the defense of minimum conditions of justice and world order."

By those standards, the war in Iraq is just. Saddam Hussein was the perpetrator of great evil. Far more Iraqis died by his hand in "peacetime" than have perished in the three-year war. Furthermore, he was active in trying to organize and foment global terror.

Meanwhile, contrary to the frettings of the pant-soiling Murtha brigades, the war hasn't failed. Previously inimical Shi'a, Sunni and Kurdish factions are busy cutting deals and forming a new government -- that's progress -- and we haven't had a repeat Sept. 11. That's progress, too.

As for establishing conditions for justice and global order, the war has put terrorists to flight, reducing al Qaeda to little more than a production company for bad jihadi videos. Death-loving Islamosadists, while still active, have been forced to alter their plans and targets. And tiny seeds of democracy have begun to sprout throughout the region.

The one argument used most commonly against the war -- that it was for oil -- hasn't panned out. The people chiefly interested in Iraqi oil were the ones most opposed to the war -- the French, Germans, Russians and Chinese.

This leaves critics with a simple put-up or shut-up choice. They can look for principled arguments against the moral basis for the war, or they can continue playing the "I'm for the troops but against the war" game. Either way, they'll have to explain how the abandonment of Iraq would make the world a safer place.


Tony Snow is the host of the 'Tony Snow Show' on Fox News Radio.

Copyright © 2006 Tony Snow


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Find this story at: http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/tonysnow/2006/01/05/181090.html
 

mp.freelance

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stevec, you should post in the evolution thread. It'd be interesting to see what kind of wacky things you'd say.
 

Cal

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stevec said:
There have been three men hiding in a cave recently.

Are they really any different in their willingness to kill innocent people?

1. is Osama bin Laden
2. is Saddam Hussein
3. is Dick Cheney

Only men who are afraid hide in "undisclosed locations."

I wouldn't follow any of these three morons, but combined they have lots of followers.

Who is more to blame, the blind, or the blind that follow?
To put our nations VP, or any of our democratically elected officials for that matter, in the same catagory as bin Laden or Hussein, who would love nothing more to see every single one of us and our families tortured and killed, is beyond reprehensible.
 

Disagreeable

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Cal said:
stevec said:
There have been three men hiding in a cave recently.

Are they really any different in their willingness to kill innocent people?

1. is Osama bin Laden
2. is Saddam Hussein
3. is Dick Cheney

Only men who are afraid hide in "undisclosed locations."

I wouldn't follow any of these three morons, but combined they have lots of followers.

Who is more to blame, the blind, or the blind that follow?
To put our nations VP, or any of our democratically elected officials for that matter, in the same catagory as bin Laden or Hussein, who would love nothing more to see every single one of us and our families tortured and killed, is beyond reprehensible.

Dick Cheny had no problems with killing thousands of Iraqi civilians. The difference is that your tax dollars are supporting him. He's for sure hiding under a rock somewhere until Bush needs him to come out and talk tough.
 

Cal

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Disagreeable said:
Dick Cheny had no problems with killing thousands of Iraqi civilians. The difference is that your tax dollars are supporting him. He's for sure hiding under a rock somewhere until Bush needs him to come out and talk tough.
You forgot to link to the al-Qaida talking points on the al-Jazeera site.
 
A

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stevec said:
There have been three men hiding in a cave recently.

Are they really any different in their willingness to kill innocent people?

1. is Osama bin Laden
2. is Saddam Hussein
3. is Dick Cheney
Congratulations, stevec. You have now earned your place on THE LIST. Please feel free to share your worthless northeastern liberal babble with your fellow listmates via PM only.
Thank you. :D


RANCHERS.NET TERRORIST ALLIES LIST*

disagreeable
kolanuraven
stevec

*Last updated 01/06/06
 

Cal

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A tyrant is always a revolutionary first. He is carried on the shoulders of others. All politics and war killing is "democratic." (Only violence by individuals against individuals is "criminal.)
A country run by tyranny, invading another country to increase it's land mass and destroy or conquer the population (pick your own example) is "democratic". Absurd at best.

The big question is if the PROCESS is democratic afterwards, after the tyrant-rebel wins.
There won't be a "democratic process" after any "tyrant-rebel" wins anything. Doesn't that scare you at all? What the military (good place to insert this:
Fascists of Money (the military-industrial complex)
)and people of Iraq are trying very hard to do is create a democracy after overthrowing a tyrant.




As we know in Florida and with the wiretaps, the Bush-Cheney crowd doesn't trust the people. Democracy is a problem for them. They want power. They have power.
Who exactly was trying to keep the military votes from being counted? Geuss the Dems have the trust issues.
And they have made a BIG mess with it.
Especially this booming economy and the job creation. Sucks, huh? :roll:
Congratulations! We have the leadership we deserve.
Why thank you very much!
A petty greedy and arrogant nation elects petty greedy and arrogant leaders.
The cool thing about it is that you're free to leave. Not all peoples are so lucky. If you'd like a one way ticket anywhere don't be bashful about asking. I have immense faith in the people of this country. The fact that you label the population as "petty greedy" says SO much about you.


..try to think less politicized. If it was wrong for Saddam to kill his citizens, then why was it right for Lincoln to do the same? Either they are both heroes, or they were both terrible leaders. I am more inclined to accept the later.
Nonsense. Saddam, his evil sons, and entourage of that ilk, were brutal, power hungry, and saddistic. Lincoln believed it was wrong for human beings to own each other. The fact that you see a parallel is sick.

Every war is a civil war. Only later does it spread.
I hate to dash your hopes, but noone is going to be requoting your "brilliance" after your dead and gone.
 

Steve

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Cal,

SteveC is already in Massachusetts, as Kerry proved you can't get further from America then that......
 
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stevec said:
Cal said:
The cool thing about it is that you're free to leave. Not all peoples are so lucky. If you'd like a one way ticket anywhere don't be bashful about asking. I have immense faith in the people of this country. The fact that you label the population as "petty greedy" says SO much about you.

The test of a free country is for people to COME AND GO. As our border paranoia shows, we are not so relaxed at letting people come in. As 9/11 proves, all this "security" is an illusion.
steviec, I think you were so intent on sharing your northeastern liberal babbling blabber with everyone that you missed Cal's point. Perhaps Cal is just too polite to get through to you? Maybe I can help interpret for you, since I don't have that problem.

I could quite possibly be wrong, but I think his intent was to tell you that if you hate it here so much you can be dismissed. Leave the country. Become an emigrant. Tear your ass out. Seek asylum elsewhere. Or perhaps you should seek an asylum elsewhere? We can even take up a collection to assist you with relocation.

Glad I could help. Now, log off and get to packing'. :D
 

Mike

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X said:
stevec said:
Cal said:
The cool thing about it is that you're free to leave. Not all peoples are so lucky. If you'd like a one way ticket anywhere don't be bashful about asking. I have immense faith in the people of this country. The fact that you label the population as "petty greedy" says SO much about you.

The test of a free country is for people to COME AND GO. As our border paranoia shows, we are not so relaxed at letting people come in. As 9/11 proves, all this "security" is an illusion.
steviec, I think you were so intent on sharing your northeastern liberal babbling blabber with everyone that you missed Cal's point. Perhaps Cal is just too polite to get through to you? Maybe I can help interpret for you, since I don't have that problem.

I could quite possibly be wrong, but I think his intent was to tell you that if you hate it here so much you can be dismissed. Leave the country. Become an emigrant. Tear your ass out. Seek asylum elsewhere. Or perhaps you should seek an asylum elsewhere? We can even take up a collection to assist you with relocation.

Glad I could help. Now, log off and get to packing'. :D

If I may, I think I can sum up Cals and X's in fewer words:

Don't let the door hit you in the A$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Disagreeable

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It seems to me that steve, mike, Cal, Katrian, Ding Dong, Passin Gas, X, etc., are the people willing to give up their Constitutional rights if only Georgie will save them from the bad old terrorists in Iraq. Oh, wait. Iraq wasn't a terrorist training camp until George W. Bush chose to invade them. Boy, that must be reassuring. :roll:
 

Cal

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Disagreeable said:
It seems to me that steve, mike, Cal, Katrian, Ding Dong, Passin Gas, X, etc., are the people willing to give up their Constitutional rights if only Georgie will save them from the bad old terrorists in Iraq. Oh, wait. Iraq wasn't a terrorist training camp until George W. Bush chose to invade them. Boy, that must be reassuring. :roll:
Of course it wasn't :roll: , Saddam and company was probably too busy teaching Sunday School or something. http://ranchers.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6740
 

Cal

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You seem to forget that Washington was once the rebel. As well as a number of his friends. Manifest Destiny, and that America invaded Canada in the war of 1812. Nations don't invade for land in a vacuum either, the corporations suggest the expansion first. (Like the Tea companies.)
The US was still a very young country in conflict with Great Britain over territories and boundaries. But of course they must have been wrong to not bend over and surrender at every opportunity, so we could have had...uhh...peace.

A "tyrant" is anyone who has the authority that you want. It is a VERY subjective term. But the authority trying to maintain his rule (Saddam & Lincoln & the King) and the rebeling wanting to eliminate his rule are willing to kill. They are mirrors of each other. One is not better than the other.

To keep putting Lincoln on the same level as dictators is just ignorantly wrong. So he emanciated the slaves and kept the union intact... geuss blowing up Mount Rushmore must be somewhere on your agenda.

The only jobs and growth are for those selling guns to the government. Beyond that, the economy is tanking. But then, I don't judge money as the most important measure on a moral compass, like you do, which is why you link the two ideas that way. "Big" numbers are inevitable based on how the system is structured. 2+2=5.

Are you retarded? The economy is not a "moral compass". Uhh, so how many people are "selling guns to the government".

Those who are making money from the existing regime are always loyal (loyalists) to it. You think Bush is making you rich, so you are loyal to the blood money that he promises. (even if it isn't real, which is the real farce in your analysis)

Hogwash, we've made money under Dem and Rep Administrations alike. It has to do with philosophies and core values.

The test of a free country is for people to COME AND GO. As our border paranoia shows, we are not so relaxed at letting people come in. As 9/11 proves, all this "security" is an illusion.

So we should have open borders? :roll: Do you suppose there's a reason we haven't been attacked since 9/11?

I can see fine. I don't have my head in the sand. The Iraqis put up a statue to Saddam, we put up statues to Lincoln. Same difference. The winners write the history.
You are insane. Are you actually comparing the Lincoln Monument to that stupid statue that Saddam put up that the Iraqi people toppled as their first order of business?

Have you ever read what Lincoln actually said? He was never interested in freeing the slaves; he thought maintaining the union was paramount. (As did the King and Saddam)
Of course he didn't, the Civil War was just for kicks. :roll:

If killing is wrong, then why isn't killing wrong regardless of who does the killing?

If someone hadn't "killed" for our freedom you probably wouldn't be speaking English right now, nor would you be able to worship freedly, or badmouth the government, and spout all your other diatribe.

I understand your problem. I used to honor killers once, too. I finally came to my senses.

I'm geussing you mean sight, smell, hearing, touch, and taste.



Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.


God will judge Saddam, Hitler, Lincoln, Washington and Bush and Osama. They all claimed to have God on their side, but did they really when they made the decision to kill? Do you, when you support their killing?

What will your stiffneck purchase you? Do you know you have one?
Have you seen a mental health professional? There may be some type of medication that can bring you back to reality.
 

mp.freelance

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Cal said:
Have you seen a mental health professional? There may be some type of medication that can bring you back to reality.

That's what I've been trying to tell him! He lives so far in the realm of the abstract he's lost touch with reality.
 

Mike

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mp.freelance said:
Cal said:
Have you seen a mental health professional? There may be some type of medication that can bring you back to reality.

That's what I've been trying to tell him! He lives so far in the realm of the abstract he's lost touch with reality.

I think that too much "Medication" is the problem now! :lol:
 

mp.freelance

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People like stevec should spend some time under a REAL tyrannical regime, just to get a taste of what "oppression" really feels like. Stevec, you're the equivalent of a spoiled little child who throws a tantrum 'cause his parents won't buy him a Bigwheel when the kid across town is dying of starvation. Appreciate what you have for a change.
 

Liberty Belle

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I agree with both of you - I also think stevec's biggest problem is medication, but he acts like a spoiled kid with way too much time and money for his own good - and with very little common sense.
 

Steve

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Dis wrote:again......
Iraq wasn't a terrorist training camp until George W. Bush chose to invade them.

I guess it's not sinking in to fast but you are wrong again...... :roll:
 

Soapweed

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stevec said:
I drive people nuts because I criticize their heroes. But all I am doing is pointing out their hypocrisy is the same as those they think of as their "enemy."

Hence the wisdom of "love your enemy." Your enemy is yourself. If you cannot see his folly, then you cannot see your own.

No, you don't drive my "nuts". I feel sorry for you. You are like the cattle pawing up dirt because they have a continual chip on their shoulders. Attitude is everything, and going through life with a mouthful of sour grapes can hardly be much fun.
 

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