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Question about bulls

RoperAB

Well-known member
Seems like smaller outfits (say with 200 cows to be breed)around here are buying bulls and say paying on average $4500 per bull.
Would it not make sense for these outfits to just keep some good bull calves and trade with their neibhours?
Nobody does this, but wouldnt it be something to think about doing?
 

DiamondSCattleCo

Well-known member
I see more and more of this going on, especially with those ranches who are keeping heifers from their own herds. The trick is to ensure that your neighbor has a bull that will complement your own herd and yours, his. A good friend of mine has a Shorthorn/Simm cross bull calf that I will be swapping him for next year with one of my Shorthorn/Angus cross bulls. But he and I have complentary cow herds. He has PB Shorthorn and Shorthorn/Simm crosses, while I have PB Shorthorn, Angus and Shorthorn/Angus crosses. We've both found that the Angus/Shorthorn/Simm cross calves give us our best performance, and our herds will complement one another.

Rod
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
What I would like to see is a consortium of producers get together and invest in a few high dollar cows to AI and flush and raise their own "HIGHER" quality genetic bulls to be sold back to investers at an "at cost" basis.

Why buy an expensive bull out of certain sire and dam when you can raise them?


~SH~
 

RobertMac

Well-known member
~SH~ said:
What I would like to see is a consortium of producers get together and invest in a few high dollar cows to AI and flush and raise their own "HIGHER" quality genetic bulls to be sold back to investers at an "at cost" basis.

Why buy an expensive bull out of certain sire and dam when you can raise them?


~SH~

SH, there are two sides to this coin...steers/heifers that perform in the feedlot and heifers that make functionally good cows back in the herd. Because of the varied environments, genetic adaptability to different environments is the major consideration for the cow herd.
 

rkaiser

Well-known member
Scotty writes -
What I would like to see is a consortium of producers get together and invest in a few high dollar cows to AI and flush and raise their own "HIGHER" quality genetic bulls to be sold back to investers at an "at cost" basis.



So within your little plan Scotty. Would those producers be allowed to offer their bulls for sale in an unmanipulated free market with no governmnet rules to protect them from competition?

Or would you like to put rules in place where these producers HAVE to sell the bulls at cost.
Sounds like more of your commucapitalistdictatorship type policy to me Scotty.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
RM: "SH, there are two sides to this coin...steers/heifers that perform in the feedlot and heifers that make functionally good cows back in the herd. Because of the varied environments, genetic adaptability to different environments is the major consideration for the cow herd."

Are you suggesting that there is always antagonisms between those cattle that perform in the feedlot and those cattle that perform on the range?

I'd have to strongly disagree since I've raised cattle that bring in over 60% of their body weight, rebreed, and their calves still gain 3.4 and convert 5.5 in the feedlot while grading 70% choice Yield grade 2s.

Any antagonisms between feedlot cattle and range cows and "genetic adaptability" would be better addressed with a situation of raising your own bulls as opposed to buying them.


RK: "So within your little plan Scotty. Would those producers be allowed to offer their bulls for sale in an unmanipulated free market with no governmnet rules to protect them from competition?"

They wouldn't be selling these bulls Randy, they would be using them. The poorer bulls would be cut and the heifers would go into a donar program. The purpose is to save the cost of bulls and to tailer the genetics to each producers specific needs.


RK: "Or would you like to put rules in place where these producers HAVE to sell the bulls at cost. Sounds like more of your commucapitalistdictatorship type policy to me Scotty."

I have no idea what cloud you pulled that from.



~SH~
 

Jason

Well-known member
The biggest problem with bull buyers is they want champaign for the price of beer.

SH your idea has a couple flaws, mainly cost. The breeders in the deal will be stuck with what they get even if the flush isn't great. Their cost per bull won't be any cheaper than what they can get elsewhere.

Bull buyers that can't find good bulls for less than $4K aren't looking very hard. Most guys paying that kind of money for bulls only do it because they can't evaluate the true value of bulls. Everyone can spot the best looking bull in a pen, not many can evaluate the best bull for them.

Aside from genetics, management plays a big part in how the bulls develop. I am getting more and more guys that finally after buying fat bulls for 20+ years they realize over fed bulls don't last.
 

rkaiser

Well-known member
Sorry Scotty, I misunderstood the "sold back to investors at cost" statement. I guess you are truley talking about a venture that would not allow for financial gain for those who had the best, or at least more sought after genetics.

Your theme bounces from Capitalist to Socialist even more than mine Scotty. Makes it difficult to understand.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Jason: "The biggest problem with bull buyers is they want champaign for the price of beer."

I won't argue that but it shouldn't stop one from finding out whether he can get champaign for the price of a beer. Haha!


Jason: "SH your idea has a couple flaws, mainly cost. The breeders in the deal will be stuck with what they get even if the flush isn't great. Their cost per bull won't be any cheaper than what they can get elsewhere."

That could be Jason. It's not like it's an original concept. Brad S and I were discussing this very issue a few years ago and I still see merit in it. What I like best is the idea of being able to breed to the genetics that best matches your specific environment as opposed to looking for those genetics.

I have found what I'm looking for in various bull sellers operations but the prices are getting quite high. Not sure we couldn't be raising bulls just as good for less money.


Jason: "Bull buyers that can't find good bulls for less than $4K aren't looking very hard."

I agree!


Jason: "Most guys paying that kind of money for bulls only do it because they can't evaluate the true value of bulls. Everyone can spot the best looking bull in a pen, not many can evaluate the best bull for them."

That's a very true statement. A few years ago I was driving back from a bull sale in North Platte, NE kicking myself because I didn't buy a bull that was a twin that had sacrificed some performance due to being a twin.

The best bull I ever had on the place was originally bought for $3000, used a year, and sold to me for $2300. A 600U son.


Jason: "Aside from genetics, management plays a big part in how the bulls develop. I am getting more and more guys that finally after buying fat bulls for 20+ years they realize over fed bulls don't last."

Amen!

I got burned a few times on show bulls that melted down in the pasture. Too fat to cover the ground initially and too weak to cover the ground once they melted.

Had some show bulls that ended up not being able to travel.

There is definitely a difference between a bull that looks good in the show ring and one that is "range ready".



~SH~
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
RK: "I guess you are truley talking about a venture that would not allow for financial gain for those who had the best, or at least more sought after genetics."

Let me explain the concept further. A group of progressive producers who are raising relatively the same type of cattle in the same type of environments get together and buy a few really high dollar cows, that fit their environment, to AI to certain bulls and flush them. These embryos are transferred to donar cows that raise these bull calves. They are fed specific rations to allow them to grow and still be functional. The bulls are then split between the investers of the donar cows for use in their own herds. No bulls are sold. These bulls go to the investor at an "at cost" basis.

Comprende'?


Jason might be right that it may cost more money than you can buy these bulls for but that remains to be seen.

I'd love to buy some high dollar red simmental cows and AI them to red angus bulls.


~SH~
 

RoperAB

Well-known member
Jason said:
The biggest problem with bull buyers is they want champaign for the price of beer.

SH your idea has a couple flaws, mainly cost. The breeders in the deal will be stuck with what they get even if the flush isn't great. Their cost per bull won't be any cheaper than what they can get elsewhere.

Bull buyers that can't find good bulls for less than $4K aren't looking very hard. Most guys paying that kind of money for bulls only do it because they can't evaluate the true value of bulls. Everyone can spot the best looking bull in a pen, not many can evaluate the best bull for them.

Aside from genetics, management plays a big part in how the bulls develop. I am getting more and more guys that finally after buying fat bulls for 20+ years they realize over fed bulls don't last.

The last bull sale I went to was pre bse border closure. That was the Calgary Bull sale. The guy I was with paid $4500 for a low end Hereford bull. Most bulls were going for more with the top bull selling for around $12,000.
As most on here know im not a cattle man but I can give you a ranch hand perspective.
Its the expensive bulls that get broke and or die. Never a cheap one!
I think the main reason outfits wont trade bull calves back and forth is because everybody likes to think he has better stock than his neighbours. If he traded bull calves it would be like admiting his neighbours cows were as good as his own.
 

RoperAB

Well-known member
Hey just a thought.
If you dont have enough bulls and your neighbour has good bulls just put your open cows in the pasture next to your neighbours bulls/cows.
 

ranch hand

Well-known member
RoperAB said:
Hey just a thought.
If you dont have enough bulls and your neighbour has good bulls just put your open cows in the pasture next to your neighbours bulls/cows.


And have all your cows shot!!!!!
 

RoperAB

Well-known member
ranch hand said:
RoperAB said:
Hey just a thought.
If you dont have enough bulls and your neighbour has good bulls just put your open cows in the pasture next to your neighbours bulls/cows.


And have all your cows shot!!!!!
LOLs Just make sure you go to war with somebody who has more cows to lose than you do.
Besides the big outfits normaly dont fence. Its always the little guy who has to fence the big guys out. So if their bulls crawl through the fence to get at the little outfits cows whos fault is it?
 

HAY MAKER

Well-known member
RoperAB said:
Hey just a thought.
If you dont have enough bulls and your neighbour has good bulls just put your open cows in the pasture next to your neighbours bulls/cows.

RoperAB,for you to suggest that a cattle man "steal" bull service from his neighbor,does it for me,believe its time for you to move along...........good luck
 

RoperAB

Well-known member
HAY MAKER said:
RoperAB said:
Hey just a thought.
If you dont have enough bulls and your neighbour has good bulls just put your open cows in the pasture next to your neighbours bulls/cows.

RoperAB,for you to suggest that a cattle man "steal" bull service from his neighbor,does it for me,believe its time for you to move along...........good luck

It was a joke you moron.
 

Mrs.Greg

Well-known member
RoperAB said:
HAY MAKER said:
RoperAB said:
Hey just a thought.
If you dont have enough bulls and your neighbour has good bulls just put your open cows in the pasture next to your neighbours bulls/cows.

RoperAB,for you to suggest that a cattle man "steal" bull service from his neighbor,does it for me,believe its time for you to move along...........good luck

It was a joke you moron.
:lol: :lol:
 
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