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Question about mandatory ID

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Saddletramp

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When they instigate Mandatory Animal ID here in the states will there also be producer trace back on beef that is imported from other countries like Brazil, Argentina , Mexico,etc.? If so how will that work? Who will make foreign producers accountable? If not then once again are we forced to play ball on the global field of rocks?

Just a question.
 

Jason

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According to world trade rules, no country can ask more of an importing country than they are requireing of the domestic market.

If the US catches up and gets a unique animal ID, the USDA can require all importing countries to have a system in place that allows traceback.

Canada is already ahead and could in theory ban non ID'd US cattle, although the lower capacity of kill hooks here is enough to keep them there.
 

Clarence

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The way it looks to me: The present plans are that the ID ends when the critter reaches the packer. he could just throw away the tag then. If that is the case, imported dressed beef will not need to be identified., so no trace back.
 

PORKER

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When they instigate Mandatory Animal ID here in the states will there also be producer trace back on beef that is imported from other countries like Brazil, Argentina , Mexico,etc.? If so how will that work? Who will make foreign producers accountable? www.ScoringAg.com They are Already in those countrys Saddletramp.They had to ,to sell in Europe you need traceback or the product is not unloaded.
 

Sandhusker

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Clarence said:
The way it looks to me: The present plans are that the ID ends when the critter reaches the packer. he could just throw away the tag then. If that is the case, imported dressed beef will not need to be identified., so no trace back.

I don't know, Clarence. Why would it make any difference if the beef was from foreign or domestic sources? Isn't the reason behind ID so that a problem can be traced?

What is this ID system supposed to accomplish, anyway?
 

Econ101

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Jason said:
According to world trade rules, no country can ask more of an importing country than they are requireing of the domestic market.

If the US catches up and gets a unique animal ID, the USDA can require all importing countries to have a system in place that allows traceback.

Canada is already ahead and could in theory ban non ID'd US cattle, although the lower capacity of kill hooks here is enough to keep them there.

Kind of like the tail wagging the dog, huh, Jason.
 

Clarence

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When you see the manditory Id system in it's everyday clothes, all it will do is, should a sick cow show up anywhere from the ranch to the packer, they can tell within 48 hours where it got sick.
 

PORKER

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http://www.scoringag.com/Public/docs/packingplant_solution_en.pdf
http://www.scoringag.com/Public/docs/packingplant_solution_model.pdf
http://www.scoringag.com/Public/docs/advantages_packingplant_en.pdf

Clarence wrote:
The way it looks to me: The present plans are that the ID ends when the critter reaches the packer. he could just throw away the tag then. If that is the case, imported dressed beef will not need to be identified., so no trace back.
NOT when the FDA rules of FOOD track it.
 
A

Anonymous

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PORKER said:
NOT when the FDA rules of FOOD track it.

That was kind of my understanding- that the FDA food rules under the Homeland Security Act were now/ or were going to require that all imported food be traceable back to its place of origin- and that they must keep documentation on that all the way thru retail....
 

Big Muddy rancher

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Econ101 said:
Jason said:
According to world trade rules, no country can ask more of an importing country than they are requireing of the domestic market.

If the US catches up and gets a unique animal ID, the USDA can require all importing countries to have a system in place that allows traceback.

Canada is already ahead and could in theory ban non ID'd US cattle, although the lower capacity of kill hooks here is enough to keep them there.

Kind of like the tail wagging the dog, huh, Jason.


Econ kinda looks like Canada is the head of the dog and the rest of the body is scratching Fleas.
 

DiamondSCattleCo

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Clarence said:
When you see the manditory Id system in it's everyday clothes, all it will do is, should a sick cow show up anywhere from the ranch to the packer, they can tell within 48 hours where it got sick.

I'm not sure what the US's plan is, but the CCIA system only involves tagging after leaving the FIRST producer's farm yard. In other words, where it was born.

This is an important distinction: They can tell where the animal originated, and where it went as it was scanned, not necessarily where it got sick. So if an animal went to 3 different producers, and a feedlot, all without scanners or accurate records, the system would break down.

Having said that, it does allow for faster tracking, as investigators have 2 starting points, beginning and end, and they can attempt to track towards one another. It provides some opportunity to check for errors; if the starting point and ending point don't meet in the middle, you know someone's got bad records. Until every single person who handles livestock has a scanner and can update the tracking database, its probably the best we can do.

Rod
 

Stub

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I agree with Clarence. The ID stops at the kill floor. USDA wants to know which pasture the critter is born, where it is fed & how. When the consumer looks over the meat case, we don't know even what Country the meat is from!
When I buy an apple it is labeled where it was grown and what kind it is.
 

Econ101

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Big Muddy rancher said:
Econ101 said:
Jason said:
According to world trade rules, no country can ask more of an importing country than they are requireing of the domestic market.

If the US catches up and gets a unique animal ID, the USDA can require all importing countries to have a system in place that allows traceback.

Canada is already ahead and could in theory ban non ID'd US cattle, although the lower capacity of kill hooks here is enough to keep them there.

Kind of like the tail wagging the dog, huh, Jason.


Econ kinda looks like Canada is the head of the dog and the rest of the body is scratching Fleas.

BMR, I am not too worried about the ID system except how it will try to be used against the average producer. You don't have those concerns, as you have already ceded your industry to the packers. Your decision to do so without a fight leads me to believe that you have other interests.

Could it be that you have tagged your industy on the backs of Cargill and Tyson because you know how much influence they have in Washington? Your lumber industry can not count NAFTA. Are you just adjusting to politic real?

Playing sides in a country's domestic politics can be just as hazardous for you as you claimed it was for your liberal politician fellow in earlier threads who spoke out against the Bush administration. We haven't given up this country yet, and we will do so only with a fight that will be bloody, as you say on this board.

I could make some dispersionary comments about Canada at this point, but I would rather focus the energy on the problem, not a large group of people that has innocent people in it. I don't count you, having as much history in the Canadian cattle business, and letting it get to the place it was in, as innocent. Your inaction in the Canadian cattle business and what has happened to Canadian producers is quite embarrassing. Saying you now lead the U.S. in a ploy that packers back over producer interests for your own interests is self serving. If you think you are going to be the head of this bull dog, you better think again.
 

Big Muddy rancher

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Well Econ the industry took hold of our ID system and told the government that we would run it and make the rules not them. It is evolving from Dangle tags leaving herd of origin to RFID tags that can and will be tracked at auctions and feedlots to packing houses. It probably won't be perfect and their will be growing pains but will still will be years ahead of the US.
We are doing Vouluntary age verification and now that we need age Verifified cattle for Japan the packers are paying for it proof. Market driven ID. Ain't that great. A $3 investment could return $20 in 6 months. That's what will get proucers on side with a few more regulations that imporove our industry.
 
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Big Muddy rancher said:
Well Econ the industry took hold of our ID system and told the government that we would run it and make the rules not them. It is evolving from Dangle tags leaving herd of origin to RFID tags that can and will be tracked at auctions and feedlots to packing houses. It probably won't be perfect and their will be growing pains but will still will be years ahead of the US.
We are doing Vouluntary age verification and now that we need age Verifified cattle for Japan the packers are paying for it proof. Market driven ID. Ain't that great. A $3 investment could return $20 in 6 months. That's what will get proucers on side with a few more regulations that imporove our industry.

Big Muddy- A question--What if some old bullheaded Canuck says I ain't gonna use them...I don't need the big money and I'll take them anywhere I want to without any tag?.....
 

Clarence

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BMR:
You can't put that $20 in the bank until you get it in your hands.
I favor an ID system that recognizes the good producer, and one that will reward him, but I fear the one's who must work between in order to get the horse hitched to the cart. Producer control is all BS. Someone has to be the enforcer.
 

Big Muddy rancher

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Oldtimer said:
Big Muddy rancher said:
Well Econ the industry took hold of our ID system and told the government that we would run it and make the rules not them. It is evolving from Dangle tags leaving herd of origin to RFID tags that can and will be tracked at auctions and feedlots to packing houses. It probably won't be perfect and their will be growing pains but will still will be years ahead of the US.
We are doing Vouluntary age verification and now that we need age Verifified cattle for Japan the packers are paying for it proof. Market driven ID. Ain't that great. A $3 investment could return $20 in 6 months. That's what will get proucers on side with a few more regulations that imporove our industry.

Big Muddy- A question--What if some old bullheaded Canuck says I ain't gonna use them...I don't need the big money and I'll take them anywhere I want to without any tag?.....


The only requirement is that they be taggged before leaving herd of origin. If they show up at a auction they will be refused or will be tagged and the cost of tagging taken off the invoice. I guess if you absolutly refuse you will be charged and if found guilty fined.

That said since BSE and our ability to trace back not many talk out loud about not tagging. Most realize that it helped pull our butts out of the fire.

That is why we don't want mandatory age verification because it will be done and done right if there is something in it for the producer. The tagging is what we want to keep the only mandatory requirement.
 
A

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"I guess if you absolutly refuse you will be charged and if found guilty fined."
-------------------------------------
Then you have some type of law requiring it-- that is not producer driven or industry mandated- it is a government mandate that the government made an industry group set up...

Same as they're trying to do here-even the APHIS website talks about in 2008 and 2009 passing the legislation requiring it and enforcement....

Doing it arse backward to my thinking- but they don't want people to think this is a government mandate... Kind of a snow job for those slow people like SH and MRJ who are so against government interference.....
 

Jason

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Any system has to have accountability to make it valuable.

The fine in Canada is $500 per animal not tagged. There was a 4-5% allowed missing tags rule for calves but that might have been closed.

The system is producer run and policed, the law was made by produer groups. If there is no penalties then it becomes a worthless program because some idiot will not tag.

The info of ownership is not available to packers, brand inspectors, market operators etc, unless they need to identify a stray, then the 1 number on the tag will be identifyed to brand inspectors only.

In case of disease outbreak the CFIA will have access to the herd of origin only on the tag(s) of the infected animals.

The numbers are random, no set is attached to one herd, the number range is registered at time of tag purchase.

The packers report the numbers to CCIA (database) on animals slaughtered so they can be retired, no further tracking is needed for live disease if the animal is dead. Traceback at the packers would be a seperate system but could use the CCIA tag as a backup. To give consumers herd of origin would take a change in the ID agreement. The ID we have is not designed to be carried to consumers. Consumers aren't demanding that anyway, or there would be more pasture to plate systems in operation.
 

Econ101

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Big Muddy rancher said:
Well Econ the industry took hold of our ID system and told the government that we would run it and make the rules not them. It is evolving from Dangle tags leaving herd of origin to RFID tags that can and will be tracked at auctions and feedlots to packing houses. It probably won't be perfect and their will be growing pains but will still will be years ahead of the US.
We are doing Vouluntary age verification and now that we need age Verifified cattle for Japan the packers are paying for it proof. Market driven ID. Ain't that great. A $3 investment could return $20 in 6 months. That's what will get proucers on side with a few more regulations that imporove our industry.

After your recent history with BSE, I don't think the U.S. industry wants to emulate you, BMR. We already are in reference to Japan.
 

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