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Question concerning angus.

A

Anonymous

Guest
We go to the sale barn occasionally pick up some heifers and graze them spring till fall. In the fall when we sell we hold back about 25 percent to breed.

Here is my question. The Angus association revealed here while back a syndrome with dead calves or deformed calves. Was it called curly calf syndrome? I think it was linked to a couple of sires uses for several years. The registered people can stay on top of this by doing dna work checking for the problem. The commercial man has no dna records and it would take the profits from the first calf crop to see what you have.

How do you feel about using commercial calves that may be carriers? Loosing one or two calves a year to this in todays times can be rather costly.

Then there are all of the other breeds that have used Angus over the last few years to develop breeds like the murrey grays, brangus and such. Will there not be problems here also?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Larrry said:
Look at the bright side-they are black

Thanks Larry but rather than growing black our bottom line is the green at the end of the day!

:lol:
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
If you don't buy any bulls that are carriers of AM or NH- you should have no problems- since these problems are caused by recessive genes....And any honest or reputable registered angus breeder should not be selling any carrier bulls- as tests are available for those that are potential carriers...

clean to clean - probability of dead calf* = ZERO
clean to clean - probability of carrier = ZERO
clean to clean - probability of clean =100%

carrier to carrier - probability of dead calf* = 25%
carrier to carrier - probability of carrier = 50%
carrier to carrier - probability of clean = 25%

carrier to clean - probability of dead calf* = zero
carrier to clean - probability of carrier = 50%
carrier to clean - probability of clean = 50%

*(from genetic defect)

And you may be correct- the problem may be more in the breeds that used angus to build their other breed- like the simmis and gelbvieh and others did to go black-- as they may not have any good records of the angus breeding behind them.... Not sure how those associations are handling it....
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Oldtimer said:
If you don't buy any bulls that are carriers of AM or NH- you should have no problems- since these problems are caused by recessive genes....And any honest or reputable registered angus breeder should not be selling any carrier bulls- as tests are available for those that are potential carriers...

clean to clean - probability of dead calf* = ZERO
clean to clean - probability of carrier = ZERO
clean to clean - probability of clean =100%

carrier to carrier - probability of dead calf* = 25%
carrier to carrier - probability of carrier = 50%
carrier to carrier - probability of clean = 25%

carrier to clean - probability of dead calf* = zero
carrier to clean - probability of carrier = 50%
carrier to clean - probability of clean = 50%

*(from genetic defect)

And you may be correct- the problem may be more in the breeds that used angus to build their other breed- like the simmis and gelbvieh and others did to go black-- as they may not have any good records of the angus breeding behind them.... Not sure how those associations are handling it....

Oldtimer thanks for the response. With todays low profits I dont see how anyone can stand to lose 1 calf let alone multiple if they do have this.

It has got to be in many other breeds where angus bulls were used to start a breed liek brangus and all the others.

I for one am rethinking any thing that might have any links. I have passed on several ads for brangus, murrey greys, and simmetals just because of the unknown.

This has got to be a major concern with the other breeds that were developed using angus. :shock:
 

PATB

Well-known member
If a carrier of genetic defect is mated to a non carrier 50% of the animals of the offspring will carry the gene for the Genetic defect. If 2 carriers are mated then 25% will be free, 50 % cill be carriers and 25% have the genetic defect that could be lethal to the calf and possible the cow. Use a DNA tested bull that is free of know genetic defects for the breed/s. Crossbreeding will not stop the spread of a genetic defect only using tested animals that are free will. The american angus association has a list of known carriers on its website at angus.org.

edited to correct non carrier to carrier percentage.
 

Double L

Well-known member
PATB said:
If a carrier of genetic defect is mated to a non carrier 25% of the animals of the offspring will carry the gene for the Genetic defect. If 2 carriers are mated then 25% will be free, 50 % cill be carriers and 25% have the genetic defect that could be lethal to the calf and possible the cow. Use a DNA tested bull that is free of know genetic defects for the breed/s. Crossbreeding will not stop the spread of a genetic defect only using tested animals that are free will. The american angus association has a list of known carriers on its website at angus.org.

Gotcha. I do have some Angus bulls, but they don't have gene defects to my knowledge. I just though you wouldn't get the gene defects if you put them on crossbread.
 

PATB

Well-known member
double L as you replace your bull battery make sure all new replacements are test free of genetic defects for the breeds involved. An angus/shorthorn cross has the potential for at least 5 potential lethal defects. A good source of genetic tested seed stock could save you allot of loss on calf crops.
 

Double L

Well-known member
PATB said:
double L as you replace your bull battery make sure all new replacements are test free of genetic defects for the breeds involved. An angus/shorthorn cross has the potential for at least 5 potential lethal defects. A good source of genetic tested seed stock could save you allot of loss on calf crops.

I know the breeder tested the two new ones we purchased 3 weeks ago and they tested negative for defects. Where is that breeder info on the angus website. If that breeder is on their list I may get them retested by my vet.
 

Double L

Well-known member
I have been doing some research on the new bulls and sires in their blood lines aren't on any of the lists of carriers.

Why is there semen still for sale from GAR Precision 1680?
 

LLL

New member
Double L said:
I thought those genes only effected purebread angus not crossbread.

Since the sources seem to be coming from the Angus breed, you've got a greater chance of getting 2 recessive genes matching up and producing an affected calf. But, don't forget how heavily Angus genetics have been used on other breeds. It will be possible, though less likely, for this defect to show up in crossbred calves. Use a tested-negative bull if you want to be sure to keep your coming calf crops clear.
 

Double L

Well-known member
LLL said:
Double L said:
I thought those genes only effected purebread angus not crossbread.

Since the sources seem to be coming from the Angus breed, you've got a greater chance of getting 2 recessive genes matching up and producing an affected calf. But, don't forget how heavily Angus genetics have been used on other breeds. It will be possible, though less likely, for this defect to show up in crossbred calves. Use a tested-negative bull if you want to be sure to keep your coming calf crops clear.

Thanks for the explanation. I think I am still going to have my bulls tested because the breeder where I got them did have some sire bulls sired by Precision 1680. Mine aren't supposed to be, but sometimes you never know. I'm not saying that this guy would be dishonest, but I want to be sure before I put them on our cows.
 

LLL

New member
Double L said:
LLL said:
Double L said:
I thought those genes only effected purebread angus not crossbread.

Since the sources seem to be coming from the Angus breed, you've got a greater chance of getting 2 recessive genes matching up and producing an affected calf. But, don't forget how heavily Angus genetics have been used on other breeds. It will be possible, though less likely, for this defect to show up in crossbred calves. Use a tested-negative bull if you want to be sure to keep your coming calf crops clear.

Thanks for the explanation. I think I am still going to have my bulls tested because the breeder where I got them did have some sire bulls sired by Precision 1680. Mine aren't supposed to be, but sometimes you never know. I'm not saying that this guy would be dishonest, but I want to be sure before I put them on our cows.

It wouldn't hurt, accidents happen at honest breeders, too. Good luck!
 

Double L

Well-known member
After reading up on curly calf it doesn't make sense that one of the most heavily used bulls carries the trait, but there have only been around 60 confirmed cases of curly calf.
 

andybob

Well-known member
Is it possible breeds such as the MG were developed before the abberent genes developed? Despite the relatively narrow gene pool in the remaining native Aberdeen Angus herds, we have none of the recessive genes identified in the modern strains.
For the purely commercial breeder, maintaining a herd of red cattle, and crossing with Angus as a terminal breed will give the required CAB qualifying progeny without having to worry if the bulls are carriers. This also gives the opportunity to use a breed better adapted to your environment, if not in a temprate zone suitable for Angus.
If you want black, heat resistance, with no Angus influence, consider Mashona cattle there are a number of herds in the USA.
 

Denny

Well-known member
Double L said:
After reading up on curly calf it doesn't make sense that one of the most heavily used bulls carries the trait, but there have only been around 60 confirmed cases of curly calf.


Its called a cover up...
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Denny said:
Double L said:
After reading up on curly calf it doesn't make sense that one of the most heavily used bulls carries the trait, but there have only been around 60 confirmed cases of curly calf.


Its called a cover up...

Denny- you're playing dangerous even suggesting such a thing as I learned in a previous thread: :wink:

http://ranchers.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34878&highlight=curley

But you are right IMHO.... Too many big cattle multipliers- and their consultants and herd managers :roll: - along with their hired hands that actually did the work (many times who could care less)-- promoting their 100K-250K individual animal investments--- rather than the real cattle breeders who raise cattle like the commercial cattlemen did/do with- with longterm improvement of their herd and breed put ahead of their (and their investors) profitteering....
 

oldblood

Well-known member
First off no one should buy bulls with out papers, it only costs an angus breeder $7 to register a calf if done before 3 months old and $25 after it is a year unless it's AI then it's more. If they don't have papers then you should pull blood it's $38 for a combined test of AM & NH. I know it can be a pain in the a$$, $7 to $38 is petty cheep compaired to lossing calves or even cows, after this year calf crop it should be pretty much clean out of the register bull market except for the comercial breeder selling bulls that knows nothing about it. If you ask a bull breeder about it and they act dumb or says you got nothing to worry about, I would not do busness with these people. As for the heifers if you have clean bulls you have nothing to worry about. What if you sell those heifers to rancher who has dirty bulls and does not know if he has trouble he'll be looking for you.
 
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