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Question for the Board

Econ101

Well-known member
Should you put loyalty over honor or honor over loyalty? Does it depend on the circumstance and the consequences?

Hypotheticals are welcome.
 

Judith

Well-known member
Whoa Econ! :D This is a totally loaded one even on a hypothetical basis. I do believe that circumstance would determine the wide variety of answers you will get. Loyalty can often be very misguided.
 

Econ101

Well-known member
Hey, Judith, you are correct!! Here is a start:

Loyalty Versus Honesty...C&P
Why now? Recent events and rumors make this a necessity...

Loyalty Versus Honesty
Commentary

Critical Dilemma -- Loyalty Versus Honesty

General Joseph P. Hoar, U.S. Marine Corps (Retired)
Proceedings, January 2005

The major conflict in the boardrooms of America is caused by the clash between loyalty and honesty. This was the issue I discussed with a friend as we shared pre-dinner drinks this past July—and his succinct appraisal of the state of American business resonated with me.

In fact, the tension between honesty and loyalty extends far beyond the business community and is raging in the U.S. government. An article in the The New York Times of 3 October 2004 described how uncertainty and disbelief about the acquisition of an Iraqi nuclear capability were played in such a way that the Vice President, the Secretary of State, and the National Security Advisor were able to assert publicly that an aggressive nuclear program was being pursued actively—when none apparently existed. Where were the Directors of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and the Defense Intelligence Agency when the State Department intelligence office cautioned that the facts did not support this view?

Honesty has been a casualty in the past two years as the U.S. government made major errors planning and conducting the war in Iraq. Moreover, no one has been held accountable and there has been no acknowledgement of failure. President George W. Bush’s characterization of the “catastrophic success”—aside from being an oxymoron—is a poor alibi for mismanagement of reconstruction.

During the past two years, while traveling in the Middle East and visiting in Washington, I listened to the steady drumbeats of retired and active duty flag and general officers, foreign service officers, civil servants, and officials of friendly Middle Eastern governments: stories of spin and information suppressed, senior leaders enunciating desired goals and then tasking subordinates with finding facts to confirm those goals, promotion denied a CIA operative who did not come up with the “right answer” regarding Iraq’s nuclear program, and offers of assistance in the search for peace and stability rebuffed because they came from “terrorist” or “axis of evil” states. Investigative journalists consistently uncover themes of bad news repressed by the government, which often uses security classification as the means of concealing embarrassing information.

No one is naïve enough to believe this kind of behavior is new to Washington. But why should many military and civilian officials continue to favor loyalty over integrity? Arguments for loyalty in some cases are those of political affiliation and friendship. Further, disloyalty might well impede career advancement, retirement plans, home mortgages, and tuition for the kids. Finally, there is the argument that “I can do more to fight this kind of behavior inside the government than I can by resigning or going public.”

The latter view was exemplified in 1971, when former Chief of Staff of the Army General Harold K. Johnson spoke to the student body of the Marine Corps Command and Staff College in an atmosphere of nonattribution. After some 40 minutes of describing the sad state of affairs related to the Vietnam War, an Army major rose to ask him why, given the unsavory situation in 1964-68, he did not resign. General Johnson responded to the effect that he could better deal with the problem inside the government than out. Years later, he regretted his failure to resign his post in protest.

In the U.S. military services, loyalty and honesty—often described as integrity—are highly prized virtues. They rank right behind courage as prized characteristics of an officer. Although there is perpetual friction and competition between them, we need go no farther than the oath taken by all military officers: “I solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic . . .” This provides the necessary direction as to where our primary loyalties should lie—to the Constitution, not to our commanders. As a matter of custom in the Marine Corps, officer promotion ceremonies include a renewal of that oath to underscore at each promotion that there are new opportunities to contribute. Equally important, it reminds officers their overriding fealty is to the nation.

Senior military commanders are most likely to face this dilemma. Because their responses are key to high-level policy decisions, they must realize that weighing honesty against loyalty is an abiding responsibility. When the history of the Iraq war is written, we can be sure that historians, journalists, and government officials will connect the dots dividing those who acted out of honesty and those who acted out of loyalty.

Retired Marine General Hoar, a former commander-in-chief of U.S. Central Command, heads J.P. Hoar and Associates, a consulting firm. He is a member of several boards, including that of the Center of Naval Analyses.
__________________
"We have just enough religion to make us hate,
But not enough to make us love one another."
~ Jonathan Swift ~

How wonder familiar is a fool!
~ Herman Melville ~
1819 - 1891

To a Marine
Honor is loyalty and dedication to God,
Country, Corps, Family, and Self.

You can take the man out of the Corps,
But you can't take the Corps out of the man!

TO THOSE WHO GAVE THEIR LIVES
THAT OTHERS MAY SAY PROUDLY
I AM A MARINE

Semper Fidelis/Semper Fi
Ricardo
 

Judith

Well-known member
Heavy read! I think in the military loyalty would win hands down. Dishonesty is rampant. Cover ups are all too common place. They always have been. How many of the boys fighting for our countries have had to take one for the team.

But in my personal life honesty and loyalty go together. Loyalty to me means doing the right thing, not covering for another persons moral shortcomings. I would not lie even for my own son. I personally believe that is the true meaning of loyalty. Making tough calls and and not always doing what is politically correct. I was not put on this earth to make people comfortable or to do things the easy way. I was given my stubborness and persistant nature so that I can lead by example. Doesnt always make me very "popular" though. Many people can not handle the truth. But I can always go to bed with a clear conscience.
 

Econ101

Well-known member
Judith said:
Heavy read! I think in the military loyalty would win hands down. Dishonesty is rampant. Cover ups are all too common place. They always have been. How many of the boys fighting for our countries have had to take one for the team.

But in my personal life honesty and loyalty go together. Loyalty to me means doing the right thing, not covering for another persons moral shortcomings. I would not lie even for my own son. I personally believe that is the true meaning of loyalty. Making tough calls and and not always doing what is politically correct. I was not put on this earth to make people comfortable or to do things the easy way. I was given my stubborness and persistant nature so that I can lead by example. Doesnt always make me very "popular" though. Many people can not handle the truth. But I can always go to bed with a clear conscience.

Judith, when I think about it, the people with the highest moral character have the traits you have described. It is a combination of honor and loyalty.

They are only mutually exclusive when there is a a moral dilemma. The conquest of this moral dilemma and its conjunction with truth leads to high character. Our own self interest is often part of the dilemma. The conquering of our self interest is essential.

If you can analyze questions with this in mind, it often becomes easier to correlate your honor and loyalty to truth. Often loyalty means we give up some of the "truth" in respect to others. People worth following (ie. their judgement is worth respect) have shown the conquest of this concept and sacrifice their self interest to truth. They will often put truth before loyalty even at their own expense. It is costly sometimes, but in the long run, it is the best outcome. History judges the long term and the long term is the sum of the short terms.

Thanks for being the kind of person who chooses to lead by example, even when it involves self sacrifice.
 

Steve

Well-known member
I think in the military loyalty would win hands down. Dishonesty is rampant. Cover ups are all too common place. They always have been. How many of the boys fighting for our countries have had to take one for the team.

at many times during my career I have seen good men (and Ladies) careers destroyed by lapses in Judgement...the service holds a higher standard on honor then one could understand.....yes, the scandles are there, but so is the punishment....responsibility is demanded...loyalty is a price one pays to serve...it is understood that loyalty has a price....but that price is not dishonor....why would the most famous line "Death before Dishonor" be held so dear by the most loyal branch the Marine Corp?...

would it be because thier Motto, Sempi Fi, goes hand in hand with it?..notice it is "faithful......Always Faithful.,..while loyalty is embodied in that spirit it is not the over-riding theme, Faithful as any wife would know is not blind loyalty,... but an Honored loyalty.....Honor becomes the basis for the loyalty.....and with that the spirit of the Corp, Always faithful.....

"Semper Fidelis" is Latin for "Always faithful. "On every Eagle, Globe and Anchor the eagle holds a ribbon saying Semper Fidelis. The Motto of the United States Marine Corps. Latin for always faithful. Faithful to God, Country, Family and the Corps.


the other services say it differantly but we all understand that service commitment and loyalty are not worth a bent rusted naill unless it is "with Honor"........

Your judgement on the Militarys' lack of Honor is based on those who didn't understand the price..or were not willing to pay that price...

....not the many more that served with Honor, and would uphold that honor to the end.....

Steve
USN Retired
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Honor overrides Loyalty every time--If their is a questionable loyalty issue, it means someone or something screwed up- honor you have to live with every day of your life......
 

Judith

Well-known member
I guess coming from both a military background and a corporate working background I have a very different view of things. I learned that honesty, if it goes against the grain will get you shunned and turned on. I learned that the policy of "turn the other cheek" is the rule rather than the exception. Many times superior officers will cover up situations, pretend they do not exist. If the situation in question makes them look bad, they will choose a "fall guy" to take the blame. It is this persons loyalty that makes him willingly take the fall for his superior. Loyalty is what gets people killed. I guess the words and their context mean different things to different people. The fall guy would be considered doing what is honorable I suppose. It's a chicken or egg thing. I have the utmost respect for the men and women who serve, we just got our Jeff back for good. He is in one piece and we are happy to have him home!!!! He can now enjoy life with his new wife and baby daughter that he was just introduced to :)
 

Judith

Well-known member
I just saw the happy couple this weekend, got to pick em up at the airport! Everyone was crying and hugging. It must be so overwhelming to other families who happen to see our giant herd ! We had a wonderful time. Jeff is a helicopter mechanic so he had to go over on three terms. He is done now and they can settle down. I've never seen a happier couple in my life :) I had to keep taking the baby so that she wouldnt get squished in the passionate embraces goin on :) Lots and Lots of laughing :)
 

Econ101

Well-known member
I brought this up, in part, because of what I posted on the other thread about the servicemen who were involved in the rape and murder of Iraqis.

If you are in an outfit, loyalty to your buddies can keep you alive. In the instance in the article, the person who told the truth instead of covering it up had a heck of a dilemma. He had to turn on his buddies, something that is rather hard in the rank and file because of training.

These are personal struggles that make or break character. Often times it is easier to go along at the time than to do the right thing. Sometimes the right thing to do is elusive. You just don't know what to do.

I would agree with Oldtimer that honor has to come before loyalty and good leaders will never put you in that place in the middle.

Unfortunately, I think Abu Graib did just that to unexperienced servicemen. They saw how the CIA treated prisoners and thought that was the way they were supposed to treat prisoners. It was---- until they were caught and it was exposed.
 

Steve

Well-known member
If the situation in question makes them look bad, they will choose a "fall guy" to take the blame. It is this persons loyalty that makes him willingly take the fall for his superior. Loyalty is what gets people killed.

taking the "blame" for a superior is seldom the choice of the junior soldier....in most cases it is where the "evidence" stops.....It is not fair.....nor done out of loyalty...
 

Steve

Well-known member
Neo eCon101 wrote:
I brought this up, in part, because of what I posted on the other thread about the servicemen who were involved in the rape and murder of Iraqis.

Now wasn't that a surprise.....you found another way to "Bash the troops".....

By Questioning thier Honor and integrety.....what a jackass......or should I say "liberal".........
 

Econ101

Well-known member
Steve said:
Neo eCon101 wrote:
I brought this up, in part, because of what I posted on the other thread about the servicemen who were involved in the rape and murder of Iraqis.

Now wasn't that a surprise.....you found another way to "Bash the troops".....

By Questioning thier Honor and integrety.....what a jackass......or should I say "liberal".........

No, Steve, I am not bashing the troops, I am bashing you!!!! If you don't realize that by now, wake up, wake up.

I question you and your "honor". It isn't about anyone but YOU!!!

I think you need to take your medicine now.
 

Steve

Well-known member
NEO eCon101wrote:
No, Steve, I am not bashing the troops, I am bashing you!!!! If you don't realize that by now, wake up, wake up.

No Kidding....and look how low you will go......not only do you support two old biddies rude comment, you would Question the entire Militarys' Integrity and Honor just to "get at me"......

I think you just a tad Paranoid and desperatly in need of Medication......
 

Econ101

Well-known member
Steve said:
NEO eCon101wrote:
No, Steve, I am not bashing the troops, I am bashing you!!!! If you don't realize that by now, wake up, wake up.

No Kidding....and look how low you will go......not only do you support two old biddies rude comment, you would Question the entire Militarys' Integrity and Honor just to "get at me"......

I think you just a tad Paranoid and desperatly in need of Medication......

No one needs to get at you, Steve, you do a jam up good job of that yourself. I think you could turn any post into a pity party for yourself.

The men and women I know who are currently serving or who have served do not have these problems. Did you drink something you shouldn't have?
 

Judith

Well-known member
Steve,
Not that I need to defend Econ, he does a great job on his own ! Why do you feel he is bashing the troops? He has always been a supporter of the men and women that serve. Where on earth did you get the idea that he would bash the troops? I'm a bit late coming into this one but I really must have missed something....
 

Steve

Well-known member
NEO eCon101 wrote
. Did you drink something you shouldn't have?

is there a point to your insults?

why is it that when a liberal is proved to be wrong they resort to personnel attacks?

your continious insults and childish behaviour is easily observed....so rant all you want...it is pointless....(other then showing how childish you are)
 

Steve

Well-known member
Judith:
Where on earth did you get the idea that he would bash the troops? I'm a bit late coming into this one but I really must have missed something....

He started this thread to attack me...using the Honor and integrity of the Military....

He defended some old biddies comment about Soldiers raping and stealing.....

He defended Kerry's stupid comment.......

and is increadibly insuting when he loses a debate......which is often....

now he wants to drag the Board into his squabble.....

it is sad pathatic behavior.......something one would expect from a 4 year old on the playground.....not from an adult....
 

Judith

Well-known member
I see, well it never hurts to ask. :D I'll quit being so nosey.....I think there is a humorous thread over in horses and dogs :) I think I will move on to happier thoughts :)
 
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