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Question on trim

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Sandhusker

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If the packers were unable to import lean from overseas, what would they have to use to mix with the 50/50?

Would the alternative benefit domestic producers more than the use of the imported lean?
 

Jason

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It would have to be done on a cost benefit analysis.

If the total poundage of mixed grind would sell for more than the individual componets it could be done.

However, what does this do to the whole supply? If you remove some cheaper end cuts that still sell for more than grind, that would put more pressure on ground beef for low income consumers. Raise that price and you might just see more families thinking burger is a luxury.

There aren't enough cull cows to match the need. And selling those cows as thins so they are lean grind makes the killing more expensive per pound of product.

The industry has devleoped at a pace based on supply and demand, to artificially change one aspect can have unintended effects far reaching.
 

PORKER

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Unless It would have to be done on a cost benefit analysis.

If the total poundage of mixed grind would sell for more than the individual componets it could be done.

Since Larry's Healthy Beef raises registered Angus cattle on forages only—no antibiotics, no synthetic hormones. Half and whole cattle are available in late fall for custom processing by local slaughterhouses. Free delivery to slaughterhouse. Call for deposit information and processing dates.

Our specialty—(((Whole Cow Hamburger)))—is available year round. It is USDA-inspected and available in one pound packages. Enjoy lean grassfed beef that comes from the entire cow—prime rib, T-bones, roast, ground beef, etc.—all ground together into the best hamburger you have ever tasted! Come see our humanely treated cattle enjoying lush pasture, water, shade.

Our Angus cattle are selected to excel on pasture only—with a direct chop forage only winter feeding program on the New Zealand-type plan. Registered breeding stock always available for sale. Visit our website for more on our breeding and feeding program.
 

Juan

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Big Muddy rancher said:
Say porker you need to buy some advertising. Oh wait you don't do you you just keep slipping those little promo's in.

"Sandcaver" gave him an opening. :D :D :D
 

PORKER

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Hey Guys this was a promo for (((whole cowburger))) withOUT added TRIM since
Jason said: There aren't enough cull cows to match the need. And selling those cows as thins so they are lean grind makes the killing more expensive per pound of product. or with out Some other country's TRIM.
 

Econ101

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Jason, I just want to ask a couple of questions without getting nasty.

Is it the cattleman's job to make sure that he is getting such a low price that all poor people can afford to buy his product or is it society's job (govt.) to make sure that there are more opportunities in the economy so that people can earn enough money to buy whatever it is they want to buy?

Rkaiser has already posted a comment on another forum that indicates that the importing packers are using the "cheaper" meat to use when competing against non importers. Whose interest is that in? Does it help producer outfits like Big C and Robert Mac's butchering source? Without these competitors for the beef producers sell, producers like you will get a lower price. Agman almost (I could have baited it out of him) brought up the fact that imports are a net benefit to the economy. This assertion has some important clarifications that must be made. It is in the interest of consumers and the packers that import it. Domestic producers must compete with it and so must the non-importing packing plants. For both those groups it is a negative, no matter what Agman may lead you to believe.

As you go down in the quality (fat) grade in beef, you bring down the tenderness and palatability. While a sirloin steak may make good grilling from a choice steer, the same steak from a low select my be suited only for hamburger. This is one of the reasons for the higher price for choice cattle. Sure you get more trim off a choice than a select, but you also get cuts that are usable and saleable from the rest of the hanging meat.

Robert Mac may want to argue the benefits of brahman cattle down in Florida and the deep hot south, and they are benefical for those climates for production, but you must also breed some of the "negative" characteristics out. You can do that. Brangus bulls, Santa Gertrudis, and some of the King Ranch type cattle (Way south Texas) are some examples of doing this. Robert Mac, any comments on this?

By the way, we used to drive the pickup around the field trying to get the brahman bull my grandfather had to attack us. I called it field rodeo. My cousin said once he rolled the old pickup. The animal was a magnificant bull.
 

PORKER

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Rkaiser has already posted a comment on another forum that indicates that the importing packers are using the "cheaper" meat to use when competing against non importers. Whose interest is that in?

THEIR Stockholders and themselves.
 

Econ101

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PORKER said:
Rkaiser has already posted a comment on another forum that indicates that the importing packers are using the "cheaper" meat to use when competing against non importers. Whose interest is that in?

THEIR Stockholders and themselves.

So they swing the markets higher with their market manipulation and on the upswing they take in those benefits through imports for themselves. Looks like the domestic producers lost on that one.

All of these are little things. When there is a workable concentration in the industries (cattle packers, poultry, and pork) we will start to see the real profits in these industries. Poultry already sees it and producer abuses (that go unstopped) abound. These things are the loss leaders to more concentrated markets.
 

Jason

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Let's lay out a scenario.

A country with a large consumer base like the US. The land base is finite, God isn't making the US bigger. The population is growing. Land is being taken from agriculture to be developed for housing. As in any population there are rich and poor, most are in the middle.

Any product that is rare and in demand will be priced at the top of the chain. Only some will be able to afford it. There is a limited number that can afford it. Produce more and the price will fall so the middle group can afford the product.

That is economic fact.

Now what product can we plug into the slots?

Kobe beef is very rare and very high priced. If the supply was to increase the price would have to fall. That is why the supply is not allowed to increase.

The organic whole grind cows type beef is rare and appeals to a higher income group. Maybe not the top, but for sure not everyone will pay a premium to get it.

The costs of processing a 1000 pound thin cow compared to a 1600 pound fat cow are similar, but the yield of product for the fat cow is far more.

Let's use 60 cent cows and $100 kill and 40 cent carcass wt processing.

The thin cow is worth $600 add $100 kill and $200 processing (50% dress)

The fat cow is $960 add $100 kill and $320 processing.(50% dress, but fat cows usually do better)

The first cow has $900 into it for 250 pounds of lean burger. $3.60 perpound break even.

Cow 2 $1380 for 400 pounds of lean burger. $3.45 per pound break even. However if that cow was not trimmed as lean, the yield could be 500 pounds. Then break even is $2.76.

Lets add the waste fat from the cow to make her yield 600 pounds but the grind is too fat. Get some imported lean trim say 200 pounds at a cost of 50 cents per pound. Suddenly our break even is $1.85 per pound of lean grind. And still basically whole cow grind.

Arguements, why not just grind the trim? As has been stated before fat adds flavor. Imported trim might be too dry and have a different taste than consumers are used to. Remember consistancy too. All 800 pounds would be the same but if seperated would be very different and not appeal to the same consumers.

All the profit from the trim went to the processor. Initially yes. However it reduced his cost per pound so he can move more product into more lower income groups. The cull cow he bought becomes more valuable as well. He needs that fat cow to mix.

If we just allow the cows to be killed and reduce the amount of ground beef the price will go up. True to a small point, but remember as the price climbs it becomes too expensive for more people. How many consumers will pay $3.60 plus profit margins for ground beef?(cow 1 break even) Some will, but enough to sell all the cull cows to? Remember chicken sells for 99 cents on special.

To move all domestic cows as thiner whole ground cows the price of the cow would have to fall in line with the competition. To get cow 1 down to $1.85 break even she would only bring $0.1625 per pound live.

In this example the imported trim makes culls worth $0.4375 more per pound live weight to the producer.
 

Econ101

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Jason, have you ever heard the song, "I Am My Own Grandma"?
 

Beefman

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Econ101 said:
I just want to ask a couple of questions without getting nasty.

Is it the cattleman's job to make sure that he is getting such a low price that all poor people can afford to buy his product or is it society's job (govt.) to make sure that there are more opportunities in the economy so that people can earn enough money to buy whatever it is they want to buy?

To survive, beef producers need to ensure they’re getting the MARKET price, or better. For doing things better, there are opportunities to beat the market. There have never been more opportunities to prosper in the beef industry than there are now. Opportunities exist today to provide an acceptable beef product at all price points. Your production suggestion of grinding only whole muscle, native carcasses forces even more customers to cheaper protein sources.

Econ101 said:
Rkaiser has already posted a comment on another forum that indicates that the importing packers are using the "cheaper" meat to use when competing against non importers. Whose interest is that in? Does it help producer outfits like Big C and Robert Mac's butchering source? Without these competitors for the beef producers sell, producers like you will get a lower price. Agman almost (I could have baited it out of him) brought up the fact that imports are a net benefit to the economy. This assertion has some important clarifications that must be made. It is in the interest of consumers and the packers that import it. Domestic producers must compete with it and so must the non-importing packing plants. For both those groups it is a negative, no matter what Agman may lead you to believe.

Consumers will judge with their taste buds and pocket book. Again, who is our competition?

Econ101 said:
As you go down in the quality (fat) grade in beef, you bring down the tenderness and palatability. While a sirloin steak may make good grilling from a choice steer, the same steak from a low select my be suited only for hamburger. This is one of the reasons for the higher price for choice cattle. Sure you get more trim off a choice than a select, but you also get cuts that are usable and saleable from the rest of the hanging meat.

To be technically correct, you might want to have a discussion with your Animal Science 101 buddies down the hall. Marbling indicates quality grades, fat (as you describe) doesn’t. You might also want to revisit what happens with low Select sirloin steaks. Due to high cost, very few, if any major retailers will be spending the extra money for select sirloins for the grinder. Composit loin primals on Wednesday per USDA http://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/lm_xb403.txt suggest Select primal loins at $194.04/cwt, Ribs at $215.49/cwt. Too expensive for ground beef.

Econ101 said:
Robert Mac may want to argue the benefits of brahman cattle down in Florida and the deep hot south, and they are benefical for those climates for production, but you must also breed some of the "negative" characteristics out. You can do that. Brangus bulls, Santa Gertrudis, and some of the King Ranch type cattle (Way south Texas) are some examples of doing this. Robert Mac, any comments on this?

What are these “negative” characteristics? If your suggestion is these are our home grown ground beef candidates, consider these cattle types do make up a percent of inventory in TX / OK feedlots today. They sometimes get the same cash price as the English bred cattle. I doubt their owners will want to sell at discount.
Econ101 said:
By the way, we used to drive the pickup around the field trying to get the brahman bull my grandfather had to attack us. I called it field rodeo. My cousin said once he rolled the old pickup. The animal was a magnificant bull.

Grandpa must not of caught you. Otherwise, he would’ve beaten some sense into you.


Beefman
 

Beefman

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Econ101 said:
Jason, have you ever heard the song, "I Am My Own Grandma"?

Jason made several good points. Is your best response a reference to a silly song?
 

Econ101

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Beefman:
To survive, beef producers need to ensure they’re getting the MARKET price, or better. For doing things better, there are opportunities to beat the market. There have never been more opportunities to prosper in the beef industry than there are now. Opportunities exist today to provide an acceptable beef product at all price points. Your production suggestion of grinding only whole muscle, native carcasses forces even more customers to cheaper protein sources.

Beefman, when prices are this high for beef, it is economically feasable to ship beef from Australia and New Zealand here. We are on the high of an upswing. We wouldn't be this high if we weren't pushed as low as the Tysons manipulation caused. Opportunities to provide acceptable beef at all price points from imports does not help domestic producers. My argument is not for no imports, it is to show that when prices are pushed to the higher highs and lower lows that market manipulation causes, the producer ends up paying for it and the packers benefit. The "hurts no one" view from Chuck Lambert is wrong. It only internationalizes the supply of beef. Global companies are able to play the cattle cycle off of other countries to their benefit and to the detriment of domestic producers. I don't suggest grinding only whole muscle from native sources.

Jason brought that up in is previous example on $4.00 roundn for hamburger with trim, I believe. Sandhusker pointed out that it was not that much at the store and I let go the fact that there are other cuts of the beef that are better suited for the grind than that. Lots of the chuck and brisket would go in before the round. Some rounds, however, need to go into burger. I know, because I have cooked them before. Steak and Shake has secured a good burger (based on sales and price of product) based on grinding the whole animal. We always put cows into hamburger too. Occaisonally taking out the loins.

If you want to keep making up examples to get the answer that imports benefit domestic producers, then keep trying it. I have some coastal property in Louisiana to sell that you might want to buy.

Beefman:
To be technically correct, you might want to have a discussion with your Animal Science 101 buddies down the hall. Marbling indicates quality grades, fat (as you describe) doesn’t. You might also want to revisit what happens with low Select sirloin steaks. Due to high cost, very few, if any major retailers will be spending the extra money for select sirloins for the grinder. Composit loin primals on Wednesday per USDA http://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/lm_xb403.txt suggest Select primal loins at $194.04/cwt, Ribs at $215.49/cwt. Too expensive for ground beef.

Marbling doesn't matter too much in grind (although I would argue that it does based on personal taste tests and company success of Steak and Shake). Jason tried to make his case at first with the round. I would not say that the loins or ribs are comparable for the same grade as rounds although you might want to put some standard sirloin in the grind and I could personally attest to that. To compare those cuts for grind is not a good comparison and you know it. You are just as bad as Jason on that one. I only brought up the sirloin to show that some low quality animals may have sirloin that needs to go in the grind. There are differences in the select grade as far as its range is concerned. I am sure that sometimes at the bequest of the packer some of that standard ends up as select.

What are these “negative” characteristics? If your suggestion is these are our home grown ground beef candidates, consider these cattle types do make up a percent of inventory in TX / OK feedlots today. They sometimes get the same cash price as the English bred cattle. I doubt their owners will want to sell at discount.

No one wants to sell at a discount. Sometimes when you have too much Brahman influence, you have a carcass that is more tough. Maybe it has something to do with the boys in the pasture bothering the bull, I don't know. These characteristics can and are bred out. It is not until recent (last 20 yrs) that the data necessary for these breeding programs and results of tear tests have been used to breed out these influences. Brangus and other crosses give the same heat and humidity tolerances without some of the other negative characteristics. Your word "sometimes" is key here.

Grandpa must not of caught you. Otherwise, he would’ve beaten some sense into you.

My grandpa never beat us. He was much wiser than that. Things that are unimportant pass. A discouraging word is far more powerful from someone you respect than a beating from someone you don't.
 

Econ101

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Jason said:
It is pretty hard for an economist to argue numbers beefman. :lol:

Jason, just like the round example, you made up a scenario to fit your purpose. You didn't have real data. Numbers based on your scenario are a little self serving to your argument. I will just show you a little example:



COW AND BULL CARCASS, BONELESS PROCESSING BEEF, CUTTER COW CUTOUT



The holiday interrupted week forced many packers to the sell their inventories at mostly steady prices in order to keep their supplies current. Product for weekend and early next week delivery traded at a higher price level due to limited availability. Trade was slow to moderate mid-week as many grinders had already filled most of their demand on contracted or formulated base trading. Reported volume on the lower lean percentage items was light at unevenly steady prices. Import boneless beef prices were mostly steady in very slow market activity. West Coast bull meat continued to trade at a premium to East Coast due to limited offerings. Supplies continued to increase as many grinders were still substituting their needs with cheaper priced fresh domestic boneless beef. Cow cuts prices continued to be under pressure, trading lower on a light demand and moderate to heavy offerings. Middle meats experienced the most decline due to light seasonal demand. The 100% lean items traded mostly lower on light to moderate demand and offerings.



Lean boneless beef 92-94% not established; 90% firm to 1.50 higher; 85% 3.00 to 7.00 lower; 81% not established; 75% 1.00 to 2.00 higher; 73% not established; 65% firm to 4.00 higher. 100% lean items as of Wednesday were lower.



The Cutter cow carcass gross cut out value for Wednesday, November 23, 2005 was estimated at 101.74 per cwt., up 0.15 from a week ago Friday.

From this data, you have REAL numbers on what the value of a cutter cow carcass was worth, not something you just put together for arguing purposes. Almost all cows, steers, bulls, and heifers are processed so that their higher value parts are used for their highest value. Importing lean meat from other countries only REPLACES domestic supply and reduces its value in dollar terms.

Steak and Shake and others have still made a buck on whole cow turned into burger. If they can do it, why argue? Let the packers make dogfood out of trim. Cheating domestic producers out of the high swing that they caused may make economic sense, but it is still cheating the domestic producers out of the higher prices of the cattle cycle. This argument would not be as compelling without the Pickett manipulation case and the cattle production cycle.

Beefman, here is a little dated market info on cow prices but over longer periods of time:http://usda.mannlib.cornell.edu/data-sets/livestock/94006/ livestocklprices.xls - 263.5k.
 

Jason

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Conman your so uninformed about this industry that you just accentuated the point I made with a simple whole cow grind scenario.

Taking out the middle meats and selling them at a higher value leaves less lean grind on the cow. The extra dollar still goes back to the producer when they can substitute cheap import trim.

Do you even know grinders are not necessarily the packer?

Your cut and past blurb only lists 1 actual price $101.74/cwt. If you can explain what that price is for you might gain a shred of credibility. (hint it places live cow prices lower than in my example)
 

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