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Sandhusker

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I'll start with MRJ's post as we were definitely off topic from Murgens original post.

MRJ, "{What is stopping you from enlightening us as to "packer's goals for the next 15 years....", and all the other things Bullard told you?

Same for the guy from Neleigh, and is he on the national CBB, or the NE Beef Council board? In either case, it would be very interesting to hear what he told you about the cattle/beef industry.

BTW, isn't it a fact that many of those "beef exporters" in nations you complain about being involved in trade agreements with us have, for the major part of the beef they might export, only non-fed lean beef. Can't you see that they might be interested in sending us some of the lean beef we need to ADD VALUE to our overly fat beef trim from our very high quality fed US beef? There already are, and can be more win-win situations re. beef trade for the USA. Each mouthful of beef imported DOES NOT mean another mouthful of USA produced beef will rot on the ground, does it?
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Packer's plan - MRJ, I'm really surprised that you would ask that. What they are doing is obvious to anybody paying attention in this business and also is easy to understand from a practical business standpoint. Bullard didn't tell me anything that I already didn't know and what you already should know. Maybe the leadership in your organization doesn't feel it is important to understand what the people who you depend on to sell your product are planning? We depend on them, isn't it wise to understand their goals?

Neligh - He is on the National Board. I asked him about the idea of promoting US product abroad but not here. He said that first of all, the importers don't like paying and would rather be out of the deal entirely. They don't feel they are getting their money's worth.

He also told of a meeting with J.B. Penn. The USDA showed videos of Japanese and Koreans buying US beef. He asked Mr. Penn, "are you telling us that Japanese consumers see value in US product?" Penn replied, "Yes". Neligh then asked, "and the Koreans see value in US product?" Again Penn said, "Yes". He then asked "So why are they so much smarter than US consumers?" Silence.

I also learned about that contract that NCBA received even when their bid was $850,000 higher than a competing bid. One of the members (a NCBA member)made the comment that they didn't know anything about the other outfit and they might just be fly-by-night. Neligh pointed out that making that determination was not up to the board and that the outfit had already passed scrutiny. Another person (also a NCBA member) said, "Well, I think NCBA has done a good job in the past", and that was it. The vote was taken.

As far as importing lean for our burgers - I do see that value. However, how much do we need? How many trade agreements can that arguement be used on? Finally I'd like to point out that the biggest importer to this country (Canada) doesn't fall in that category.
 

Mike

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MRJ wrote:
Can't you see that they might be interested in sending us some of the lean beef we need to ADD VALUE to our overly fat beef trim from our very high quality fed US beef?

If we've got too many "overly fat" cattle in the US, then why don't they just pay less for them then we would not get them "overly" fat?

This business of justifying millions of lean cattle being imported because we need something to mix our "overly" fat cattle with don't make a lot of sense to me.

The real reason for importing lean cattle is because they are cheap, I'm thinking. When the hamburger plant owned by Cargill was open here, we had a hard time getting in line to sell culls because of the big lines of trucks from Mexico.
 

RobertMac

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Mike said:
If we've got too many "overly fat" cattle in the US, then why don't they just pay less for them then we would not get them "overly" fat?

Isn't there a simple answer to that...there is profit in fat. Discount the overly fat cattle on yield with a percentage making grade, then turn around and blend the fat with cheap imported lean and sell fat for the price of ground beef. Like grain traders mixing dirt with clean beans because the contract allows for a percentage of foreign matter or adding water to dry beans to get them to contract moisture. Selling worthless dirt and water at soybean prices is almost pure profit!
 
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RM: "Discount the overly fat cattle on yield with a percentage making grade, then turn around and blend the fat with cheap imported lean and sell fat for the price of ground beef."

Once again, you show your ignorance to the world.

There is no profit in fat. The profit is in adding value to 50/50 trim WHICH IS NOT 100% FAT.

Value in fat, GOOD GRIEF!

Try about $.08 per pound!


~SH~
 

Econ101

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~SH~ said:
RM: "Discount the overly fat cattle on yield with a percentage making grade, then turn around and blend the fat with cheap imported lean and sell fat for the price of ground beef."

Once again, you show your ignorance to the world.

There is no profit in fat. The profit is in adding value to 50/50 trim WHICH IS NOT 100% FAT.

Value in fat, GOOD GRIEF!

Try about $.08 per pound!


~SH~

SH, I believe this closes your argument on ofal creating efficiency that you have been so fond of making. Maybe that is why you are so in tune to diverticuli. Stop being so anal. Calling other people ignorant does not bring your stature up any at all. Are you saying that in the cattle business the packers have no reason to pay more for fatter cattle?
 

rkaiser

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A tidbit from another ignorant one...

Can you supply a high triple A carcass without as much backfat?

Sure you can. Use a bull with a heavy hide and haircoat. :wink:
 

Mike

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rkaiser said:
A tidbit from another ignorant one...

Can you supply a high triple A carcass without as much backfat?

Sure you can. Use a bull with a heavy hide and haircoat. :wink:

That's quite an interesting statement, Randy. Not meaning to argue it's merit but is the backfat less in cattle fattened in warmer weather?

I suppose a thick hair would help retain energy in a colder climate, but would it have any effect it severe heat?

Just wondering your thoughts.
 

Econ101

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rkaiser said:
A tidbit from another ignorant one...

Can you supply a high triple A carcass without as much backfat?

Sure you can. Use a bull with a heavy hide and haircoat. :wink:

Would that be a galloway?
 

rkaiser

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Mike
That's quite an interesting statement, Randy. Not meaning to argue it's merit but is the backfat less in cattle fattened in warmer weather?

I suppose a thick hair would help retain energy in a colder climate, but would it have any effect it severe heat?

Just wondering your thoughts.

Thus the advantage of living in Canada AND owning Galloway cattle. :wink:


And ,,,, How do you get cattle fat in severe heat?
 

Mike

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rkaiser said:
Mike
That's quite an interesting statement, Randy. Not meaning to argue it's merit but is the backfat less in cattle fattened in warmer weather?

I suppose a thick hair would help retain energy in a colder climate, but would it have any effect it severe heat?

Just wondering your thoughts.

Thus the advantage of living in Canada AND owning Galloway cattle. :wink:


And ,,,, How do you get cattle fat in severe heat?

I guess one person's severe is not so severe to others, but, I was just wondering if the thick hide and hair would be of lesser importance in more southern climates than your own, in your opinion. I would think so.

Do those galloway's shed hair and become "slick" when confronted with more heat than you have or do they keep the long thick coats at all times?

I have never seen a galloway and just wondering.
 

RobertMac

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~SH~ said:
Once again, you show your ignorance to the world.

There is no profit in fat. The profit is in adding value to 50/50 trim WHICH IS NOT 100% FAT.

Value in fat, GOOD GRIEF!

Try about $.08 per pound!


~SH~

What is the value of the 5 to 30% fat in Ground Beef?

Try about $1.00 per pound wholesale! Much more retail! And remember what Agman taught you...all dollars come from the consumer...so the real value isn't achieved until the consumer purchases the fat!
 

rkaiser

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rkaiser wrote:
Mike Quote:
That's quite an interesting statement, Randy. Not meaning to argue it's merit but is the backfat less in cattle fattened in warmer weather?

I suppose a thick hair would help retain energy in a colder climate, but would it have any effect it severe heat?

Just wondering your thoughts.


Thus the advantage of living in Canada AND owning Galloway cattle.


And ,,,, How do you get cattle fat in severe heat?


I guess one person's severe is not so severe to others, but, I was just wondering if the thick hide and hair would be of lesser importance in more southern climates than your own, in your opinion. I would think so.

Do those galloway's shed hair and become "slick" when confronted with more heat than you have or do they keep the long thick coats at all times?

I have never seen a galloway and just wondering.

I have to say that I don't know the answer to your question Mike. Have not sold any Galloway cattle to Mexico yet. The Welsh Black bulls we sent down shed off and stayed shed, but the thick hide offered some protection from bugs according to our customers. Summer here in southern Alberta can give us some pretty warm stretches and the Welsh Blacks do shed more than the Galloways.

By the way Mike, my best bud up here is a purebred Charlais breeder and we have a lot of fun boating to each other about the best breed. He did use some semen from one of our Red Welsh Black bulls last year and has three good looking Hybrid bull calves that he is toying with offering as breeding bulls.

I picked a charlais bull calf out of his herd about 5 years ago that went on to be his herd bull for the last few years. Stout, HAIRY buggar with that masculine "bull" look.
 

RobertMac

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rkaiser said:
rkaiser wrote:
Mike Quote:
That's quite an interesting statement, Randy. Not meaning to argue it's merit but is the backfat less in cattle fattened in warmer weather?

I suppose a thick hair would help retain energy in a colder climate, but would it have any effect it severe heat?

Just wondering your thoughts.


Thus the advantage of living in Canada AND owning Galloway cattle.


And ,,,, How do you get cattle fat in severe heat?


I guess one person's severe is not so severe to others, but, I was just wondering if the thick hide and hair would be of lesser importance in more southern climates than your own, in your opinion. I would think so.

Do those galloway's shed hair and become "slick" when confronted with more heat than you have or do they keep the long thick coats at all times?

I have never seen a galloway and just wondering.

I have to say that I don't know the answer to your question Mike. Have not sold any Galloway cattle to Mexico yet. The Welsh Black bulls we sent down shed off and stayed shed, but the thick hide offered some protection from bugs according to our customers. Summer here in southern Alberta can give us some pretty warm stretches and the Welsh Blacks do shed more than the Galloways.

By the way Mike, my best bud up here is a purebred Charlais breeder and we have a lot of fun boating to each other about the best breed. He did use some semen from one of our Red Welsh Black bulls last year and has three good looking Hybrid bull calves that he is toying with offering as breeding bulls.

I picked a charlais bull calf out of his herd about 5 years ago that went on to be his herd bull for the last few years. Stout, HAIRY buggar with that masculine "bull" look.

Dr. Jan Bonsma believed the hide to be the most important organ..it is responsible for maintaining constant body temperature.
 
A

Anonymous

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Kindergarten economics: "SH, I believe this closes your argument on ofal creating efficiency that you have been so fond of making."

You would because you don't even know what constitutes the value of ofal. In short, you don't know anything about this industry and have proved so repeatedly. You didn't even know that USDA graders grade the carcasses in a packing plant.

Tell me Kindergarten, what products make up the value of ofal. Let's hear it...............


Chief: "Are you saying that in the cattle business the packers have no reason to pay more for fatter cattle?"

I am saying that most of the SEAM FAT on a carcass is basically worthless. Marbling is a different story.


Why don't you contribute something to this discussion beyond questions and an evaluation? Quit being so anal!



Robert Mac: "What is the value of the 5 to 30% fat in Ground Beef?

Try about $1.00 per pound wholesale! Much more retail! And remember what Agman taught you...all dollars come from the consumer...so the real value isn't achieved until the consumer purchases the fat!"


That's not the issue Robert. The issue is what is the value of the SURPLUS FAT beyond the small percentage needed for ground beef.

Let me refresh your memory............

RM: "Discount the overly fat cattle on yield with a percentage making grade, then turn around and blend the fat with cheap imported lean and sell fat for the price of ground beef."


That statement clearly assumes that all fat can be added to hamburger and obtain hamburger value. That simply is not the case WHICH IS PRECISELY WHY WE IMPORT LEAN TRIMMINGS TO ADD VALUE TO ALL THE SURPLUS 50/50 trim.

Nobody is going to buy a hamburger that is 50% fat and nobody is going to grind up the chuck and round and devalue those parts to blend with 50/50 trim.

After all the discussions we have had on this topic, you still don't get it.



~SH~
 

Econ101

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SH:
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Kindergarten economics: "SH, I believe this closes your argument on ofal creating efficiency that you have been so fond of making."


You would because you don't even know what constitutes the value of ofal. In short, you don't know anything about this industry and have proved so repeatedly. You didn't even know that USDA graders grade the carcasses in a packing plant.

Tell me Kindergarten, what products make up the value of ofal. Let's hear it...............

That was your incorrect assumption SH. You made that assumption about what I know and don't know. Prove that assumption, big man. My discussion, and we have had this conversation before, was a discussion about the side bar conversation that was reported in the article that Mike posted. I am well aware of those responsibilities in the meat packing industry.

My argument on that particular part of Pickett case was that the lawyers for IBP were seemingly arguing in a sidebar against a witness having knowledge of how the kill was graded because the witness (implied) did not have access to that grading at the plant. You are the one who twisted my argument into the above quote. Verification by the USDA of grade when the USDA is under the influence of the packer is problematic at best. That is your intuitive argument which I do not neccessarily agree with.

While your industry specific information may be more extensive than mine, and I grant you that, your credibility of using that information in an argument over an economic fraud is zero. Shall we go over the numbered talking points in your argument again to see if you do know the arguments of the case? The Pickett case was an economic fraud and exactly the kind of abuse the Packers and Stockyards Act of 1921 was written to address. The arguments in your talking points were simply diverticuli. You have proven more than anyone that knowing little facts about this industry does not make you an expert to be trusted in your often proclaimed "truth". Propaganda always relies on little facts strewn around to make try to make specious arguments sound correct. It is part of a good story teller's yarn. Coming from Texas and being a person who loves the outdoors, I, too know how to tell a good story, but I know the difference between a good story and a lie. I have been granted the privledge of marrying a person who too is adept at this skill. While you may have been granted knowledge, wisdom eludes you. Have you and Agman not realized yet that I am selective in the bait which you throw out?

As long as we are talking about the ofal, I think it is important to point out that the "efficiencies" (you and Jason) extol on the ofal question is part of what has universally been accepted as a root cause of the BSE problem and hence the Canadian border closing issue. I do not believe it was the feeder who offered to sell the ofal to be mixed in cattle feed rations. In this argument there is a stronger case that the packers sold a faulty product for a new use that was not thoroughly tested to be safe and hence were the root cause of the current border closing. The feeders were not necessarily at fault for the BSE issue no more than the people who buy faulty drugs are at fault for buying the drugs. They just bought faulty feed. I suppose that in your world the person who buys a faulty product is at fault, not the person who sells it. I suppose this is one of the issues that will be brought up when the ID traceback system is in place. The packers will want to trace the liablitiy of BSE back to the rancher to try to get themselves off of the hook and thus be able to, in some small way, gain the political support of protectionist measures for themselves through the rancher or the case law needed to protect themselves when unsafe food products come on the market.

As I have suggested before, I think it would be mutually beneficial if we would both drop the name calling and stick to the logic of the assertions made on this forum. For a self-proclaimed trapper the irony of your position is kind of humorous. You have already been trapped by Sandman and have become an R-CALF supporter. What more humility must you endure?
 

Charlie1948

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To Sandhusker
I have set back and red the note every one has written for weeks.
We are all farmer ranchers and try to make a living out one the farm.One question keeps coming up why doen,t we price our product like every other business in this nation.Every one adds sur charge on fuel or steel what ever they coat thim.We as farmers just take what they want to give us.We can still be independent and do our own thing but we don,t have to sell what we grow below our cost of production.And we should sell it for a proffit.In some of the farm magazines they use to be a page that had the ( parity ) which was formulated in 1914 cost of production pluss a resonable proffit that is what we should be doing now.
I am a farm bureau director and tuesday nite we are writing a letter and sending it to all the state offices and the American farm bureau telling the enough it enough do something now.Some of them got $ 1.20 at the river port last week finally they are getting the message.

Thanks Charlie
 
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Charlie1948 said:
To Sandhusker
I have set back and red the note every one has written for weeks.
We are all farmer ranchers and try to make a living out one the farm.One question keeps coming up why doen,t we price our product like every other business in this nation.Every one adds sur charge on fuel or steel what ever they coat thim.We as farmers just take what they want to give us.We can still be independent and do our own thing but we don,t have to sell what we grow below our cost of production.And we should sell it for a proffit.In some of the farm magazines they use to be a page that had the ( parity ) which was formulated in 1914 cost of production pluss a resonable proffit that is what we should be doing now.
I am a farm bureau director and tuesday nite we are writing a letter and sending it to all the state offices and the American farm bureau telling the enough it enough do something now.Some of them got $ 1.20 at the river port last week finally they are getting the message.

Thanks Charlie
I'm not Sandhusker- but heres my two bits worth.

Charlie- It'd be great, but won't happen....Agriculture no longer has the political clout to take on big business- and big business wants cheap raw material that they can make bigger profits on....And government wants cheap food to keep the voting consumers happy--Thats the reason Big Business is getting the government to open the border to all the imports...We don't need Australian, Mexican, or Canadian beef to feed our citizens- we don't need central American sugar- if the demand is there US Ag could produce it...But it might cost more- cheaper to just write up another trade agreement and import it........

I'm seeing the same as you this year- Lot of neighbors trying to get by selling $2.00 wheat- some getting as little as $.80 after the trucking was taken out--- doesn't even pay for the combining fuel....

And these groups like Farm Bureau and NCBA that have gave Big Business free run, seldom challenging them, have led us to the point that makes a statement of Al Gores look to come true when he told some FFA kids a few years ago " You don't want to go into farming or ranching-no future as soon everything we need will be produced cheaper in other countries".......
 

Sandhusker

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Charlie1948 said:
To Sandhusker
I have set back and red the note every one has written for weeks.
We are all farmer ranchers and try to make a living out one the farm.One question keeps coming up why doen,t we price our product like every other business in this nation.Every one adds sur charge on fuel or steel what ever they coat thim.We as farmers just take what they want to give us.We can still be independent and do our own thing but we don,t have to sell what we grow below our cost of production.And we should sell it for a proffit.In some of the farm magazines they use to be a page that had the ( parity ) which was formulated in 1914 cost of production pluss a resonable proffit that is what we should be doing now.
I am a farm bureau director and tuesday nite we are writing a letter and sending it to all the state offices and the American farm bureau telling the enough it enough do something now.Some of them got $ 1.20 at the river port last week finally they are getting the message.

Thanks Charlie

I think farmers/ranchers have been thinking the same for years and years. I agree with OT, I don't think anything will change because of the power balance. I don't know what the answer is - sure wished I did.
 

RobertMac

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There is a crack in the door for cattle producers...marketing direct to the consumer, selling through independent branded programs, and selling through producer owned co-op. All will take extra work, but nothing comes for free. The key to success in these programs is to stick with them even if you can get more dollars from the big packers. Or call Randy...he may take your calves! :D
 

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