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R-CALF will meet in Iowa

Bill

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
Big Muddy rancher said:
Oldtimer said:
My only concern with your ID lately is it didn't work on this last one for our Canuck Mad Cow of the Month pool- made us wait another month for a payout... Yesterday we decided we may also add a date of the month to the pool to cover those that slip thru the ID system- closest to the day announced wins if no age can be determined :wink:

I'm a 100% backer of IDing and tracing livestock...But I don't think its something they should be creating more federal bureaucracy for....


Wr don't like federal buraucracy either that is why our program is industry driven.

Which industry- the cattle industry or the beef industry? Looks to me like all the mandates are on the cattlemen- and since its mandated by government the Packers won't have to pay any rewards for doing it......

Which industry do you belong to Oldtimer?
 

Bill

Well-known member
ranch hand wrote:
Bill....tell me how your system would or could id the calf if it was yours. Do you Id every calf to the cow?

ocm was discussing IDing back to the herd of origin which was the context in which my reply was made IDing her calf back to the herd of origin.
With the CCIA ID system the calf could have been sorted out from the calves that came into the feedlot from other herds.

Our own operation IDs each calf to it's dam.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Bill said:
Oldtimer said:
Big Muddy rancher said:
Wr don't like federal buraucracy either that is why our program is industry driven.

Which industry- the cattle industry or the beef industry? Looks to me like all the mandates are on the cattlemen- and since its mandated by government the Packers won't have to pay any rewards for doing it......

Which industry do you belong to Oldtimer?

Beef is meat obtained from a bovine.

Cattle (called cows in vernacular and contemporary usage, kine or kyne in pre-modern English, or kye as the Scots plural of cou) are domesticated ungulates, a member of the subfamily Bovinae of the family Bovidae. They are raised as livestock for meat (called beef and veal), dairy products (milk), leather and as draught animals (pulling carts, plows and the like).

I don't raise no beefs....
 

Bill

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
Bill said:
Oldtimer said:
Which industry- the cattle industry or the beef industry? Looks to me like all the mandates are on the cattlemen- and since its mandated by government the Packers won't have to pay any rewards for doing it......

Which industry do you belong to Oldtimer?

Beef is meat obtained from a bovine.

Cattle (called cows in vernacular and contemporary usage, kine or kyne in pre-modern English, or kye as the Scots plural of cou) are domesticated ungulates, a member of the subfamily Bovinae of the family Bovidae. They are raised as livestock for meat (called beef and veal), dairy products (milk), leather and as draught animals (pulling carts, plows and the like).

I don't raise no beefs....

Do you raise cattle?
 

Bill

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
Yes Bill- I have cattle but no beefs.....
So they aren't beef cattle? That's what most ranchers raise. In fact I don't believe I've ever met a "Rancher" who didn't raise beef cattle.

Maybe your a dairyman?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Bill said:
Oldtimer said:
Yes Bill- I have cattle but no beefs.....
So they aren't beef cattle? That's what most ranchers raise. In fact I don't believe I've ever met a "Rancher" who didn't raise beef cattle.

Maybe your a dairyman?

:roll: :roll:
 

Texan

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
In the states, historically, livestock disease control and livestock tracking has been left to the states- and been successfully done for years in most states...While I agree that a few states need a kick in the arse, the issue and implementation should be left with the states...
I guess you've changed your mind on this issue in the last few years, OT. Or maybe we should call it a flipflop? That's what you call it if NCBA or USDA changes positions. Are you a flipflopper now, OT? :wink:

You must be flipflopping, because this is what you posted about ID a couple of years ago:

Oldtimer: "The system developed will have to be compatible nationwide and require consistent use nationwide or it will be worthless as a traceback tool.....I'm not a big fan of the federal government-- but The inconsistencies I've found in the check-off collection and the operations of the individual state livestock and beef boards makes me wonder if it can be enacted without strong federal legislation or guidance???? Some states don't even have livestock or beef boards-- If it isn't done consistently nationwide its worthless...."
http://www.cattlecorner.com/bullpen/bull.mv?module=view&viewid=8421&row=

I agreed with your post back then, by the way. There's nothing wrong with changing your mind, either. Maybe you can explain to us why you changed your mind. And why it's okay for you to do that, but it's bad when NCBA or USDA does that.

"If it isn't done consistently nationwide its worthless...." ---Oldtimer

".....makes me wonder if it can be enacted without strong federal legislation or guidance????" ---Oldtimer

Amen to that, OT.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Texan said:
Oldtimer said:
In the states, historically, livestock disease control and livestock tracking has been left to the states- and been successfully done for years in most states...While I agree that a few states need a kick in the arse, the issue and implementation should be left with the states...
I guess you've changed your mind on this issue in the last few years, OT. Or maybe we should call it a flipflop? That's what you call it if NCBA or USDA changes positions. Are you a flipflopper now, OT? :wink:

You must be flipflopping, because this is what you posted about ID a couple of years ago:

Oldtimer: "The system developed will have to be compatible nationwide and require consistent use nationwide or it will be worthless as a traceback tool.....I'm not a big fan of the federal government-- but The inconsistencies I've found in the check-off collection and the operations of the individual state livestock and beef boards makes me wonder if it can be enacted without strong federal legislation or guidance???? Some states don't even have livestock or beef boards-- If it isn't done consistently nationwide its worthless...."
http://www.cattlecorner.com/bullpen/bull.mv?module=view&viewid=8421&row=

I agreed with your post back then, by the way. There's nothing wrong with changing your mind, either. Maybe you can explain to us why you changed your mind. And why it's okay for you to do that, but it's bad when NCBA or USDA does that.

"If it isn't done consistently nationwide its worthless...." ---Oldtimer

".....makes me wonder if it can be enacted without strong federal legislation or guidance????" ---Oldtimer

Amen to that, OT.

Yep- I did change my mind after I saw the USDA's proposed plan- and the fact that the way they had it lined out would not work in real life...Plus it puts way too much power in the federal hands- builds too big a bureaucracy- and big bureaucracy's are open to all types of misuses and abuses...Also, in the last couple years, I've become more convinced it is either not necessary- or is actually not worth the cost ....

If they go with the Mandatory ID - I think the states should operate it and most are already set up with the legal authority to do so/ with many already having working systems that need little changing to work in a nationwide system...Where I don't think the feds have the enforcement authority- unless they try to usurp more power under the Patriot Act ( an act I supported, but am beginning to question because of the overuse and encroachment of individual rights- almost to the point of abuse that is happening)....Altho the best route for the time being would be to go with a voluntary system- allowing it to develop if the premiums are there- which right now I haven't seen.....

I think it still needs a blanket broadbase federal guideline- but that the overall set up, operation, and bureacracy of the inspections, data collection, and data storage should be left to each individual state......Each area of the country is different and has differing requirements- what might work in Alabama, won't work in Montana....
 

Mike

Well-known member
OT:I think it still needs a blanket broadbase federal guideline- but that the overall set up, operation, and bureacracy of the inspections, data collection, and data storage should be left to each individual state......Each area of the country is different and has differing requirements- what might work in Alabama, won't work in Montana....

That is exactly the way it will work. Except the part about what will work for each state.

The Feds will require a minimum amount of info/data on each head. What will work in Alabama will definitely work in Montana if each meets or exceeds the required data.

The Feds won't be keeping the movement data. Each State Vet Office will. The Feds will only be able to access that data when need be.

It's really very simple. When you buy tags, those particular numbers will be recorded to you. You will record the calf's data with the State Vet, and then record a transfer of ownership at sale time, giving them a calf number and new premisis ID number.

This calf number and premisis ID number is the only data transferred after it leaves your place. They are both transferred with each sale or movement. The original data stays with the State Vet.
 

Bill

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
Texan said:
Oldtimer said:
In the states, historically, livestock disease control and livestock tracking has been left to the states- and been successfully done for years in most states...While I agree that a few states need a kick in the arse, the issue and implementation should be left with the states...
I guess you've changed your mind on this issue in the last few years, OT. Or maybe we should call it a flipflop? That's what you call it if NCBA or USDA changes positions. Are you a flipflopper now, OT? :wink:

You must be flipflopping, because this is what you posted about ID a couple of years ago:

Oldtimer: "The system developed will have to be compatible nationwide and require consistent use nationwide or it will be worthless as a traceback tool.....I'm not a big fan of the federal government-- but The inconsistencies I've found in the check-off collection and the operations of the individual state livestock and beef boards makes me wonder if it can be enacted without strong federal legislation or guidance???? Some states don't even have livestock or beef boards-- If it isn't done consistently nationwide its worthless...."
http://www.cattlecorner.com/bullpen/bull.mv?module=view&viewid=8421&row=

I agreed with your post back then, by the way. There's nothing wrong with changing your mind, either. Maybe you can explain to us why you changed your mind. And why it's okay for you to do that, but it's bad when NCBA or USDA does that.

"If it isn't done consistently nationwide its worthless...." ---Oldtimer

".....makes me wonder if it can be enacted without strong federal legislation or guidance????" ---Oldtimer

Amen to that, OT.

Yep- I did change my mind after I saw the USDA's proposed plan- and the fact that the way they had it lined out would not work in real life...Plus it puts way too much power in the federal hands- builds too big a bureaucracy- and big bureaucracy's are open to all types of misuses and abuses...Also, in the last couple years, I've become more convinced it is either not necessary- or is actually not worth the cost ....

If they go with the Mandatory ID - I think the states should operate it and most are already set up with the legal authority to do so/ with many already having working systems that need little changing to work in a nationwide system...Where I don't think the feds have the enforcement authority- unless they try to usurp more power under the Patriot Act ( an act I supported, but am beginning to question because of the overuse and encroachment of individual rights- almost to the point of abuse that is happening)....Altho the best route for the time being would be to go with a voluntary system- allowing it to develop if the premiums are there- which right now I haven't seen.....

I think it still needs a blanket broadbase federal guideline- but that the overall set up, operation, and bureacracy of the inspections, data collection, and data storage should be left to each individual state......Each area of the country is different and has differing requirements- what might work in Alabama, won't work in Montana....
Do you have a link to the USDA's proposed plan? If not could you give us the details. Not just opinion or conjecture.

Also what makes Montana and Alabama so different that the same system won't work in both states?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I had it- but might have to refind it...I took it off my favorites( :roll: ) list when USDA pretty well thru most of it out the door when they also got told it was basically unworkable as written.....They are supposed to be developing a new guidelines for Congress to look at, before Congress will agree to fund it anymore....

One example of unworkable- was the way it was written, if I went a mile away and helped a neighbor brand and took my horses- I would need an inspection since the horses would come in contact with other horses- as would every horse there...Comingled....
Same if drove 5 miles and went out to the roping club 3 nights a week and roped with other horses being there- would need an inspection report on each comingling....Totally unworkable.....

They also had it that you would be in violation of a federal crime if you hauled a cow to the vet for a c-section and the cow had lost its tag and didn't have one... Or it got out onto the road and had lost its tag..... Can't remember the exact wording, but it was every time the animal was officially viewed for any reason, it better have a tag...

It would have made federal criminals out of all livestock owners....

As far as Alabama and Montana- I believe in Alabama and many eastern states most cattle change of ownerships take place at auction barns-- where in this part of Montana the majority of cattle are shipped from private or co-op scales- some of which don't even have electricity....One of the NAIS plans had suggested something about official tagging/reader facilities- might work back east- ain't gonna out here without a lot of hardship...
 

Mike

Well-known member
OT:They also had it that you would be in violation of a federal crime if you hauled a cow to the vet for a c-section and the cow had lost its tag and didn't have one... Or it got out onto the road and had lost its tag..... Can't remember the exact wording, but it was every time the animal was officially viewed for any reason, it better have a tag...

It would have made federal criminals out of all livestock owners....

Not anymore OT. They have written in provisions for lost tags. The owner will have to apply for lost tags.

It will get mighty suspicious if any one owner starts losing too many.

It's more of an honor system.

As far as Alabama and Montana- I believe in Alabama and many eastern states most cattle change of ownerships take place at auction barns-- where in this part of Montana the majority of cattle are shipped from private or co-op scales- some of which don't even have electricity....One of the NAIS plans had suggested something about official tagging/reader facilities- might work back east- ain't gonna out here without a lot of hardship...

You don't need electricity now.
They have battery powerd readers now and little hand held battery operated computers that will store thousands of numbers.
 

Bill

Well-known member
The long and the short of it is that there are people in this world who try to find reasons why something can't be done while others find ways to get 'er done!

The US I admire was built by the latter.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Mike said:
OT:They also had it that you would be in violation of a federal crime if you hauled a cow to the vet for a c-section and the cow had lost its tag and didn't have one... Or it got out onto the road and had lost its tag..... Can't remember the exact wording, but it was every time the animal was officially viewed for any reason, it better have a tag...

It would have made federal criminals out of all livestock owners....

Not anymore OT. They have written in provisions for lost tags. The owner will have to apply for lost tags.

It will get mighty suspicious if any one owner starts losing too many.

It's more of an honor system.

As far as Alabama and Montana- I believe in Alabama and many eastern states most cattle change of ownerships take place at auction barns-- where in this part of Montana the majority of cattle are shipped from private or co-op scales- some of which don't even have electricity....One of the NAIS plans had suggested something about official tagging/reader facilities- might work back east- ain't gonna out here without a lot of hardship...

You don't need electricity now.
They have battery powerd readers now and little hand held battery operated computers that will store thousands of numbers.

I wonder how much that would cost the state to provide about 300 inspectors statewide with?....We have 15-20 shipping scales in our county alone- and many days during Sept., Oct., Nov. the biggest share of them are being used- requiring an inspector at each one...

I am glad that there was enough opposition to the USDA/NCBA's plan to stop them from shoving it down our throats the way it was written...Now they may be able to develop something workable....

Montana is all set up with the tags and premise registration- I could order tags today-- but still so far I have seen no buyers showing any interest in them....... I've had an ID system with ages and records for almost 40 years- just wasn't in a computer.....
 

Mike

Well-known member
OT:I wonder how much that would cost the state to provide about 300 inspectors statewide with?....

Make them furnish their own..............................

Be better that way. They'll take better care of personal equipment.

Here our State Troopers furnish their own handgun. Same thing.

Who knows? You could become the dealer in your area. :wink:

It's coming OT. Get ready.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Mike said:
OT:I wonder how much that would cost the state to provide about 300 inspectors statewide with?....

Make them furnish their own..............................

Be better that way. They'll take better care of personal equipment.

Here our State Troopers furnish their own handgun. Same thing.

Who knows? You could become the dealer in your area. :wink:

It's coming OT. Get ready.

That will just come back to cost the producer more- because they aren't going to make the investment for nothing-- another hardship on the producers... But don't even suggest the Big Corporate Packer has to do anything like track the meat, or even tell the truth on the label for the country of origin :roll: :( .......
 

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