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Recession--Depression??

Do You think the US Economy is Heading into a Recession--or a Depression?

  • No-the Economy is doing Fine

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes- a mild short Recession

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes- a prolonged Recession/Depression

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Economic Collapse

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
A

Anonymous

Guest
aplusmnt said:
Based on what I know of you I suspect you have lived through a few previous recessions and realize that in your life time all of them have been short lived and America has bounced back stronger afterwards. So even if the sky truly is falling on this one it will be OK. I imagine you will continue to have food and shelter and most likely even a computer and Internet service. So keep your chin up!

But we never had GW then :roll: :wink: .......
Nor had we spent 15 years giving our economy/industrial-agricultural base away to every country in the world......
In his arrogant style GW won't even admit there is a problem of any kind.....And you can't fix the problem, if your ego won't allow you to recognize there is one.... :( :cry: :(

Did you notice that even 70% of those on this site taking the poll believe we are headed toward severe recession/depression or total economic collapse..... :???: :(
 

Tex

Well-known member
Steve said:
You only believe in enforcing the law against the little people who don't have the resources to make up ways of avoiding paying their fair share of taxes.

Not true at all... I just see the results... in one breath the liberals (such as you) whine that corporations are moving overseas.. in the next you want to tax them more...

I believe if they broke the law you should prosecute them...

not just because you don't like that they found a way to make a profit despite the regulations...

Our trade deficits have more to do with our trade policy than anything else. While we have corporate income taxes, many countries have ad valorem tax then they rebate the tax if the products are exported.
Since we do not tax foreign companies with income tax, there is a tax difference that benefits exports to the U.S. and hurts exports from the U.S.

One of the problems in agriculture, as Senator Harkin pointed out on the floor or the Senate, was that EU countries support their farmers with conservation type payments that are exempt in the WTO tallies for subsidies. Thus, we hare hurting ourselves with the way we do our subsidies when it comes to trade.

You already know about the Yuan currency subsidies that have helped export U.S. jobs.

I hope every company makes money in the U.S.

It has been real beneficial for Walmart to sell products that come to the U.S. from China and overseas when these differences exist. In the process they are trading U.S. jobs to other nations and decreasing the income of the average person while large corporations make money arbitraging the differences.

I am all for free trade, but when we have continual large trade deficits, you know there is a problem somewhere.

When you start talking about trade deficits Steve, it would be nice (whatever you call yourself) you knew what you were talking about. Of course that might be too much to ask of you.
 

Tex

Well-known member
Steve said:
You only believe in enforcing the law against the little people who don't have the resources to make up ways of avoiding paying their fair share of taxes.

Not true at all... I just see the results... in one breath the liberals (such as you) whine that corporations are moving overseas.. in the next you want to tax them more...

I believe if they broke the law you should prosecute them...

not just because you don't like that they found a way to make a profit despite the regulations...

Our trade deficits have more to do with our trade (and sometimes tax) policy than anything else. While we have corporate income taxes, many countries have ad valorem tax then they rebate the tax if the products are exported.

Since we do not tax foreign companies with income tax, there is a tax difference that benefits exports to the U.S. and hurts exports from the U.S.

One of the problems in agriculture, as Senator Harkin pointed out on the floor or the Senate, was that EU countries support their farmers with conservation type payments that are exempt in the WTO tallies for subsidies. Thus, we hare hurting ourselves with the way we do our subsidies when it comes to trade.

You already know about the Yuan currency subsidies that have helped export U.S. jobs.

I hope every company makes money in the U.S.

It has been real beneficial for Walmart to sell products that come to the U.S. from China and overseas when these differences exist. In the process they are trading U.S. jobs to other nations and decreasing the income of the average person while large corporations make money arbitraging the differences.

I am all for free trade, but when we have continual large trade deficits, you know there is a problem somewhere.

When you start talking about trade deficits Steve, it would be nice (whatever you call yourself) you knew what you were talking about. Of course that might be too much to ask of you.

This is not a problem with taxes being paid, it is a problem with how we collect them from imports (or not) to run our infrastructure. Importers are getting a free ride but our economy pays for it.

We are being outfoxed on these trade agreements.
 

aplusmnt

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
aplusmnt said:
Based on what I know of you I suspect you have lived through a few previous recessions and realize that in your life time all of them have been short lived and America has bounced back stronger afterwards. So even if the sky truly is falling on this one it will be OK. I imagine you will continue to have food and shelter and most likely even a computer and Internet service. So keep your chin up!

But we never had GW then :roll: :wink: .......
:( :cry: :(

:(

I thought you anti Bush people believed we suffered a recession in 2001? That would mean he would have pulled us out of one already.
 

Steve

Well-known member
Tex
When you start talking about trade deficits Steve, it would be nice (whatever you call yourself) you knew what you were talking about. Of course that might be too much to ask of you.

It would be nice if you could engage in a debate with out resorting to insults...

Taking a comment directed at a totally different subject and changing the answer doesn't make you look smarter,.. it just shows you couldn't disprove my answer...

in response to your new allegation... on trade tariffs...

corporations make decisions based on profit.. they are not in business to make you liberals happy. but to make a profit...

free trade has not lived up to what it's supporters claimed it would do.. but the tax you propose is called a tariff.. and when we tariff a country or a product most countries retaliate...by tariffing our products.. or even restricting our products completely.. acts that ultimately hurt US and our economy..which doesn't benefit any one... other then foreign importers...

your desire to raise taxes on American corporations would just make American products more expensive then imports, and thus less desirable to over taxed American consumers... which doesn't benefit any one... other then importers...,...that ultimately hurt US and our economy..

I can't understand how a so-called educated person such as your-self, can't see how adding more cost in the form of taxes to American corporations does not hurt American made products.


but let me try to explain it to you in a simple form that you might understand


If little tex made cowboy boots and it cost him:
$25 dollars in labor costs
$11 dollars in material costs
$4 dollars in overhead costs
$3 dollars in distribution costs
$6 dollars in regulatory compliance
and $18 dollars in taxation

his total costs would be about $67

adding in brand loyalty and finding an acceptable price of say 103.85 for the boots he could cover costs and make a fair living.. but an importer could make the same product and sell it to a corporation and both the importer and the corporation could make a better profit..

and if little tex had to compete with China who had
$2 dollars in labor costs
$7 dollars in material costs
$1 dollars in overhead costs
$6 dollars in distribution costs
$2 dollars in regulatory compliance
and $1 dollar in tariffs

at $19 the importer and the big evil corporation, could sell boots for $98 and still make $79 or $39.50 each, and while the importer and the big evil corporation would have other costs that would make that profit shrink, but not by much

in all the three businesses, Little tex, importer and Big evil corporation would still make roughly $35 dollars profit... or in the grand scheme of things each would be taxed on a $35 million dollar boot industry's profit...

thus making them all rich and equal by the "tax the rich liberal standards"... since the big evil corporation and the importer could just move off shore, the only one hurt would be Little tex, the sole American manufacture.... and the tax revenue would actually go down as the importer, and the big evil corporation would be paying less and little tex would have been forced to sell out because he could not longer compete...which doesn't benefit any one... other then importers...,...and would ultimately hurt US and our economy..and increase our trade deficit...


hope that was simple enough for you to understand...
 

Tex

Well-known member
Steve said:
Tex
When you start talking about trade deficits Steve, it would be nice (whatever you call yourself) you knew what you were talking about. Of course that might be too much to ask of you.

It would be nice if you could engage in a debate with out resorting to insults...

Taking a comment directed at a totally different subject and changing the answer doesn't make you look smarter,.. it just shows you couldn't disprove my answer...

in response to your new allegation... on trade tariffs...

corporations make decisions based on profit.. they are not in business to make you liberals happy. but to make a profit...

free trade has not lived up to what it's supporters claimed it would do.. but the tax you propose is called a tariff.. and when we tariff a country or a product most countries retaliate...by tariffing our products.. or even restricting our products completely.. acts that ultimately hurt US and our economy..which doesn't benefit any one... other then foreign importers...

your desire to raise taxes on American corporations would just make American products more expensive then imports, and thus less desirable to over taxed American consumers... which doesn't benefit any one... other then importers...,...that ultimately hurt US and our economy..

I can't understand how a so-called educated person such as your-self, can't see how adding more cost in the form of taxes to American corporations does not hurt American made products.


but let me try to explain it to you in a simple form that you might understand


If little tex made cowboy boots and it cost him:
$25 dollars in labor costs
$11 dollars in material costs
$4 dollars in overhead costs
$3 dollars in distribution costs
$6 dollars in regulatory compliance
and $18 dollars in taxation

his total costs would be about $67

adding in brand loyalty and finding an acceptable price of say 103.85 for the boots he could cover costs and make a fair living.. but an importer could make the same product and sell it to a corporation and both the importer and the corporation could make a better profit..

and if little tex had to compete with China who had
$2 dollars in labor costs
$7 dollars in material costs
$1 dollars in overhead costs
$6 dollars in distribution costs
$2 dollars in regulatory compliance
and $1 dollar in tariffs

at $19 the importer and the big evil corporation, could sell boots for $98 and still make $79 or $39.50 each, and while the importer and the big evil corporation would have other costs that would make that profit shrink, but not by much

in all the three businesses, Little tex, importer and Big evil corporation would still make roughly $35 dollars profit... or in the grand scheme of things each would be taxed on a $35 million dollar boot industry's profit...

thus making them all rich and equal by the "tax the rich liberal standards"... since the big evil corporation and the importer could just move off shore, the only one hurt would be Little tex, the sole American manufacture.... and the tax revenue would actually go down as the importer, and the big evil corporation would be paying less and little tex would have been forced to sell out because he could not longer compete...which doesn't benefit any one... other then importers...,...and would ultimately hurt US and our economy..and increase our trade deficit...


hope that was simple enough for you to understand...

It would be nice if you came up with some real numbers, steve.

The labor that "little tex" used would be rich enough to buy those boots, steve. The chinese labor would not.

In your example, eventually no one would be able to buy boots after a while, stevie, certainly not the chinese labor.

By the way, you started the insults by calling some "liberal". Now you are being a cry baby about it.
 

Steve

Well-known member
tex
It would be nice if you came up with some real numbers, steve.

it's an easy example so you can understand... if I threw in real numbers you would get distracted by the numbers and fail to see the example...

but then again,..it's not my fault you liberals have trouble grasping economic concepts...
 

Steve

Well-known member
tex
In your example, eventually no one would be able to buy boots after a while,

Lower taxes and the boots would stay affordable longer for more people.. but in the long run... not every one should be able to afford the boots,... just like not every one should have been able to afford a huge house...

thinking that every one should be able to afford the same product is part of the reason the economy fails...

The law of demand states that, if all other factors remain equal, the higher the price of a good, the less people will demand that good. In other words, the higher the price, the lower the quantity demanded. The amount of a good that buyers purchase at a higher price is less because as the price of a good goes up, so does the opportunity cost of buying that good. As a result, people will naturally avoid buying a product that will force them to forgo the consumption of something else they value more.
 

passin thru

Well-known member
you started the insults by calling some "liberal".


But,but,but............some are. That would be like seeing a cute baby boy and saying..........."Oh what a cute baby girl you have there" :lol: :lol:


So being called a liberal is bad...............then become conservative and your problems will be solved. :wink:
 

Tex

Well-known member
Steve said:
tex
By the way, you started the insults by calling some "liberal".

again,... not my fault you find being called a liberal an insult...


You are the one crying about be called names. If you don't want to be called, names, don't call them. Don't be a cry baby when someone does it to you.
 

Tex

Well-known member
Steve said:
tex
By the way, you started the insults by calling some "liberal".

again,... not my fault you find being called a liberal an insult...

Again, not my fault that you are nothing but a big cry baby, willing to call others names but crying when you are called names.
 

Tex

Well-known member
Steve said:
tex
It would be nice if you came up with some real numbers, steve.

it's an easy example so you can understand... if I threw in real numbers you would get distracted by the numbers and fail to see the example...

but then again,..it's not my fault you liberals have trouble grasping economic concepts...

Those were nothing close to real numbers, steve.

You still did not address some of the issues I have brought up---that we are undermining democracy when we trade with enemies of democracy and liberty. The chinese are nothing more than a communist party elite running businesses. No democracy or labor protections. No environmental protections. These things cost money. It is not fair to U.S. manufacturers to have them pay for these things, which are deemed important in our democracy and we let imports bypass these costs.

I don't think that we should get rid of these things, because they are important, but that we should put on imported goods the costs of these things until they put them on in their own country. Then they can compete in our consumer markets, not before.

Your position is quick, sell out the U.S. market to the Chinese and allow U.S manufacturers to their fate. Look what has happened. The Chinese have the production facilities now, and it isn't always because they have a comparative advantage, unless you want to sell out freedom and democracy as a comparative advantage. In that case, you would have to also support cutting our military budget to pay for it, or what the republicans have done, borrow from the Chinese. How long will that last? We have already seen the value of the dollar decrease (which makes our oil more expensive) and our industries are already overseas. When the DOD had to comply with a new law that limited the amount of Chinese goods in our military equipment, they had to make exceptions because we couldn't do it---our supply chains have been so intertwined as to to reduce our sovereignty.

Short term thinking for a short term goal of a 4 year presidential term. We need less politicians and more statesmen who are more interested in the future of our country not the present profits of big corporations.

Selling tomorrow's future for today's profits: the current republican leadership's legacy.
 

Steve

Well-known member
Tex
Your position is quick, sell out the U.S. market to the Chinese and allow U.S manufacturers to their fate.

Talk about a bold faced lie... My position has always been pro American business...

can't say the same for your tax them till they keel over and then tax thier families out of whatever is leftover policies you advocate over and over again...
 

Steve

Well-known member
Tex
You still did not address some of the issues I have brought up---that we are undermining democracy when we trade with enemies of democracy and liberty. The chinese are nothing more than a communist party elite running businesses. No democracy or labor protections. No environmental protections. These things cost money. It is not fair to U.S. manufacturers to have them pay for these things, which are deemed important in our democracy and we let imports bypass these costs.

Maybe because what I addressed is what you actually said... not something you made up after I responded and showed how wrong you were again....

Tex
:
The "rich" or shall I say corporations, are running their trucks on the roads my taxes help pay for and they are making deals with local and state governments to pay less taxes than I do and wear those roads out a lot more than I do. They need police to keep order, and governments too. They need to be protected from invading armies and the such. They need to pay their fair share of taxes, just like anyone else.
and the Tex wrote:
If aplus wants to be a voice for the rich elite escaping the taxes all the rest of us pay, reason will not stop him.


when it was proved that corporations pay more in taxes then they receive in government services ... you changed it to a law enforcement issue...

tex wrote:
You only believe in enforcing the law against the little people who don't have the resources to make up ways of avoiding paying their fair share of taxes.

which was Not true at all... I just see the results... in one breath the liberals (such as you) whine that corporations are moving overseas.. in the next you want to tax them more...

I believe if they broke the law you should prosecute them...

not just because you don't like that they found a way to make a profit despite the regulations...


then when you saw your lame argument wouldn't fly you changed it to:
tex:
Our trade deficits have more to do with our trade policy than anything else. While we have corporate income taxes,

Now your argument for your "Tax the hell out of American corporations" has reduced to saying I'm whining for calling you on your deception, whining, name calling and now lies... No I see no reason to discus any thing with you,.. your just another closed minded arrogant liberal who wants to tax American corporations then whine when they out-source...
 

Tex

Well-known member
Steve said:
Tex
Your position is quick, sell out the U.S. market to the Chinese and allow U.S manufacturers to their fate.

Talk about a bold faced lie... My position has always been pro American business...

can't say the same for your tax them till they keel over and then tax thier families out of whatever is leftover policies you advocate over and over again...

While you SAY you are pro American business, you don't practice it in policies you support, as the ad valorem tax vs. income tax suggests along with currency manipulation and tax credits to exporters that our competitors have.

You are all for ANY corporation arbitraging the differences in our country's policies and other country's policies, no matter how uneven they make the playing field. Our trade representatives are supposed to take these factors into consideration when formulating trade policies. The trade deficits are proof that they do not.
 

Tex

Well-known member
Steve said:
Tex
You still did not address some of the issues I have brought up---that we are undermining democracy when we trade with enemies of democracy and liberty. The chinese are nothing more than a communist party elite running businesses. No democracy or labor protections. No environmental protections. These things cost money. It is not fair to U.S. manufacturers to have them pay for these things, which are deemed important in our democracy and we let imports bypass these costs.

Maybe because what I addressed is what you actually said... not something you made up after I responded and showed how wrong you were again....

Tex
:
The "rich" or shall I say corporations, are running their trucks on the roads my taxes help pay for and they are making deals with local and state governments to pay less taxes than I do and wear those roads out a lot more than I do. They need police to keep order, and governments too. They need to be protected from invading armies and the such. They need to pay their fair share of taxes, just like anyone else.
and the Tex wrote:
If aplus wants to be a voice for the rich elite escaping the taxes all the rest of us pay, reason will not stop him.


when it was proved that corporations pay more in taxes then they receive in government services ... you changed it to a law enforcement issue...

tex wrote:
You only believe in enforcing the law against the little people who don't have the resources to make up ways of avoiding paying their fair share of taxes.

which was Not true at all... I just see the results... in one breath the liberals (such as you) whine that corporations are moving overseas.. in the next you want to tax them more...

I believe if they broke the law you should prosecute them...

not just because you don't like that they found a way to make a profit despite the regulations...


then when you saw your lame argument wouldn't fly you changed it to:
tex:
Our trade deficits have more to do with our trade policy than anything else. While we have corporate income taxes,

Now your argument for your "Tax the hell out of American corporations" has reduced to saying I'm whining for calling you on your deception, whining, name calling and now lies... No I see no reason to discus any thing with you,.. your just another closed minded arrogant liberal who wants to tax American corporations then whine when they out-source...

Steve, this post is so incoherent and plain out wrong in your accusations that I choose to wait until you have your thoughts together before I respond to your points, if you have any of merit.
 

Steve

Well-known member
tex
Steve, this post is so incoherent and plain out wrong in your accusations that I choose to wait until you have your thoughts together before I respond to your points, if you have any of merit.

NO, it is your meandering attempts to change the argument over the last ten pages, every time one of your points is shot down that is so incoherent and plain out wrong"



meander
(mē-ăn'dər) pronunciation

intr.v., -dered, -der·ing, -ders.
1. To follow a winding and turning course: Streams tend to meander through level land.
2. To move aimlessly and idly without fixed direction:
n.
1. meanders Circuitous windings or sinuosities, as of a stream or path.
2. A circuitous journey or excursion; ramble.
 

Steve

Well-known member
tex
While you SAY you are pro American business, you don't practice it in policies you support


Why is it that you liberals make things up, then when your called on it, you just make up more unsubstantiated comments?

unsubstantiated,...IN BRIEF: adj. - Unsupported by other evidence.

care to prove your unsubstantiatablecomment?

didn't think so...just another "lie"... :roll: :? :roll:

[/b]
 

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