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Red Hide Discount

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WB

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I was wondering when things will change enough to make red and black cattle even money? It seems to me that black hide color is over valued but that is just my opinion.


I know if I was buying cows and I could get a similar quality cow or bred heifer for 100 to 200 dollars less I would be buying red ones.


I feel there has to be a better system to determine quality in fed cattle than just by the hide color.
 

righter

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I have often thought the same things. And it has been said that in truly hot climates, tropical or subtropical, that red or even gray hided cattle do better than the black ones. Years ago when certified angus beef first became available where we lived, I was told that all it meant was that one of the parents of the animal was black. But if Joe Blow in New York City sees the name angus on something, he is able to think to himself, Oh, I know what that looks like.
 

Jason

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It all follows what those cattle are worth as they head down the line further.

Black hides usually mean there is some Angus in them somewhere. The choice premium has made them worth a couple cents more on the calf market. There are/were about 50+ branded beef programs recognized by the USDA (number might have changed) and most of them used Angus or black hides as the initial way to enter the program.

Feedlots in Alberta have noticed they could sell the black hides sooner and grade AAA (choice). They were then confused about the other colors and did some ultrasound scanning to determine which ones were ready.

The blacks had the advantage of not needing the extra sort or scanning.

If a guy was set up to scan or knew what bulls would click with those red cows to have calves that grade easilly, there would be some money to be saved/made by buying them at a discount.
 

Denny

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Just came from a Bred cow sale Black Bred heifers topped at $1310 some Red angus heifers brought $1385 but there wer'nt many reds and the one's that were there were top shelf..
 

Aero

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Denny:
maybe i am confused by the terminology, but if black bred heifers "topped" the sale, i take that as they were the top sellers. if so, how could red angus bring more?
 
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Aero said:
Denny:
maybe i am confused by the terminology, but if black bred heifers "topped" the sale, i take that as they were the top sellers. if so, how could red angus bring more?

Not Denny- but I took it to mean that the "blacks" top selling price in the sale was $1310 and that some reds went as high as $1385...I use it that way when talking about groups that vary in price......
 

Denny

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Aero said:
Denny:
maybe i am confused by the terminology, but if black bred heifers "topped" the sale, i take that as they were the top sellers. if so, how could red angus bring more?

The top black bred heifers topped at $1310 they varied from $900 to $1310

The Top Red angus Heifers topped at$1385
 

Aero

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thanks. i will have to work on my translation skills :lol:
 

cypressfarms

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WB said:
I was wondering when things will change enough to make red and black cattle even money? It seems to me that black hide color is over valued but that is just my opinion.


I know if I was buying cows and I could get a similar quality cow or bred heifer for 100 to 200 dollars less I would be buying red ones.


I feel there has to be a better system to determine quality in fed cattle than just by the hide color.

We all know that the wave is black. Why fight the system, Joe blow has already made up his/her mind that angus beef is the way to go. I'm glad that Joe blow can recognize one of our cattle breeds! You could conceivably buy your red cows, and breed them to a homozygous black bull, thereby saving you some $ on the cows, but getting the most $ for your calves.
 

badroute

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I personally think the red hide discount is starting to swing the other way a bit. I had a neighbor get a call from a registered breeder that sells both red and black angus bulls. This breeder said the phone is ringing off the hook for red angus heifer calves. Said he hasnt had a call about black heifer calves. Although I raise blacks I myself think it is a little ridiculous that in most cases a black angus will outsell a red angus. If i can read correctly they both have ANGUS on the end of their name.
 

Soapweed

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By using black bulls on red cows, most of the calves will be black and quite a few will be red. The trouble with this combination is that a few calves will sure turn out grey, and some will be chocolately-colored. Admittedly my cows are not straight Red Angus, but have a little Gelbvieh in them. One thing about using red bulls on red cows, the calves will always turn out red.
 

Jason

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As the technology for ultrasound etc. increases the "off" colored cattle will slide into whatever slots they are most valuable in.

Some white cattle have a good propensity to marble, just not all of them.

Some red cattle are very efficient, just not all of them.

The Angus thing was kind of self made. Black and Angus were discounted for years. Other breeds liked not being visibly similar to those "little blacks".

Funny how 30 years of experience and a little program like CAB changed the beef business.
 

Horned Hereford

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First off I am new to the boards, and have been watching the topics alittle and decided to register.

I think the black hide thing will blowup eventually, JMO but the lastest sales around here the red cows have topped the sale, granted they were bred to an angus bull, but things seem to be turning a little.

The reason I beleive is because so many breeds are black now that everyone is calling therself CAB producers because of black hide.

I have no faults with the angus breed they are very good cattle but I have seen just as good herfs or shorthorns as far as that goes.
 

V_Key

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Jason said:
As the technology for ultrasound etc. increases the "off" colored cattle will slide into whatever slots they are most valuable in.

Some white cattle have a good propensity to marble, just not all of them.

Some red cattle are very efficient, just not all of them.

The Angus thing was kind of self made. Black and Angus were discounted for years. Other breeds liked not being visibly similar to those "little blacks".

Funny how 30 years of experience and a little program like CAB changed the beef business.

Not just 30 years - My dad said the Angus Breed started this back in the 50's
 

Jason

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CAB was started in 1978.

The beef business has changed more in the last 30 years than it had in 100 before that.

The last 10 years has probably seen more change than the 20 before that.

50 years back Angus were small and competed with Shorthorns and Herefords, that were also small.

British breeds started changing as continental cattle were introduced in the 60's/70's.

Beef demand fell as cattle got leaner. CAB was started to take advantage of the natural marbling Angus posess.

The "black" thing isn't a fad, rather it is the basis of the better quality beef. Any color cattle that will produce the marbled beef in demand will find a place in the industry. It's just been easier to use black cattle thinking they will all pass as Angus. It isn't the color it's what under the hide.
 

Faster horses

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I agree, Jason. They have put a black hide on a lot of cattle that don't have Black Angus characteristics.

I am in the advertising business on a small scale and create some ads for people. One of the most fun ones I have been part of in recent years was one we did for an Angus breeder. We found a cut of a cow? bull? steer? don't know for sure as it was a cartoon. Showed the head mostly, with a top hat and a tie with eyes bugged out. Our caption was "Feel like you have strayed too far from the basics?"

It spoke volumes and showed up well in the paper.
 

OldDog/NewTricks

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Jason said:
CAB was started in 1978.

The beef business has changed more in the last 30 years than it had in 100 before that.

The last 10 years has probably seen more change than the 20 before that.

50 years back Angus were small and competed with Shorthorns and Herefords, that were also small.

British breeds started changing as continental cattle were introduced in the 60's/70's.

Beef demand fell as cattle got leaner. CAB was started to take advantage of the natural marbling Angus posess.

The "black" thing isn't a fad, rather it is the basis of the better quality beef. Any color cattle that will produce the marbled beef in demand will find a place in the industry. It's just been easier to use black cattle thinking they will all pass as Angus. It isn't the color it's what under the hide.

My Dad bought our first Angus Cows in the late 50's - SMALL if you count 1700# cows small - from a Breeder in San Luis Obisbo (sp) - when I got out of the service in 2/1961- - I bought some big cows (1500 to 1600#) from K-DELL Angus in Watsonville Ca. - Both Breeders were known for BIG Stock locally - They filled me in on Angus Programs the were to become CAB in Later Days but the Ideas started in the 50's

K-Dells show string were small in short legged - in-style cows but he had big cows also.

In "58" I help set up the Show String of a Brangus Breeder in Yuma Arizona and worked for Al Face who worked for "Bruse Church" Ranches out of Salinas, CA.
 

cypressfarms

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Soapweed said:
By using black bulls on red cows, most of the calves will be black and quite a few will be red. The trouble with this combination is that a few calves will sure turn out grey, and some will be chocolately-colored. Admittedly my cows are not straight Red Angus, but have a little Gelbvieh in them. One thing about using red bulls on red cows, the calves will always turn out red.

If you use a homozygous bull all of the calves will be black, unless the bull is bred to a "diluter" color cow (like a charolais) then they will be a shade of gray. The calves will likely carry the red gene, but will most likely be black in color.
 

Angus Girl

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One interesting piece of info I just read on another site a little while ago is that there is now a test approved by the usda that has been approved to determine (for the cab program i would imagine) if the calf has the right percentage of black angus in their heritage.

At the present time this test would be very useful as more and more breeds have turned into the traditional solid black and solid red, however I am not sure how reliable the test is as it is apparently based on so many of the main angus sires used in the past looking at different polymorphisms/alleles present in the calf in question. At the same time the test would still have to be around the 20-25 dollar mark which --does this make it profitable for producers to test commercial animals when they are gong to be slaughered anyways
 

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