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Required reading for every rancher!

Kathy

Well-known member
Proceedings of the Nutrition Society (2003), 62, 267–277

The accumulation of potentially-toxic metals by grazing ruminants

J. M. Wilkinson1*, J. Hill2 and C. J. C. Phillips3
1School of Biology, University of Leeds, Leeds LS2 9JT, UK
2Faculty of Applied Science and Technology, Writtle College, Writtle, Chelmsford, Essex CM1 3RR, UK
3Department of Clinical Veterinary Medicine, University of Cambridge, Cambridge CB3 0ES, UK
Dr J. M. Wilkinson, present address Painshall, Church Lane, Welton, Lincoln LN2 3LT, UK, fax +44 1673 863108, email [email protected]

The main factors affecting the accumulation of potentially-toxic metals (PTM) by grazing animals are the presence of the metal, its concentration in herbage and at the soil surface, and the duration of exposure to the contaminated pasture and soil. In addition, the elapsed time between the
contamination of the pasture and grazing, the quantity of soil ingested together with herbage, the mechanism of absorption of the metal into blood and the presence or absence of antagonistic metals can interact to influence the rate and extent of accumulation of heavy metals in edible body tissues. Models of the accumulation of metals by grazing animals may be used to determine the statutory limits of radionuclides and PTM in soils under grazed pastures. Meta-analysis of existing data, using a random-effects model, is a useful approach to understanding the factors affecting the accumulation of some metals, e.g. Cd. The target edible body tissues for the accumulation of most PTM are the liver and kidneys, with the exception of radiocaesium, which accumulates in muscle
to a greater extent than in other tissues. The livers and kidneys of mature livestock that have been grazed on areas of pasture at the legal limit of contamination by Cd for more than one grazing season should be removed from the human food chain in order to reduce the risk of intake of Cd by the human population.


Potentially-toxic metals: Grazing livestock: Contaminated pasture and soil: Accumulation in edible body tissues.

Free on-line at:
http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FPNS%2FPNS62_02%2FS0029665103000429a.pdf&code=5252f014ae0179ebf111c69b82140018

This paper is 11 pages long, with 8 pages of text plus references.

It reviews the science of the day (2003) and provides in-sights to reasons why some grazing animals are more exposed to various toxic metals than others.

The data is general from the UK, with referenced material including studies from around the globe, eg:
"Pb has been found in the milk of cows grazing roadside areas (Pittia, 1992), in mule deer forage in the Rocky Mountain National Park (Harrison & Dyer, 1984) and in hay and straw samples collected from roadsides (Swarup, 1993). Ward & Savage (1994) found substantial quantities of Pb in the blood, wool and hair samples from sheep and horses grazing near the London orbital motorway."

I highly recommend you sit down with a cup of coffee (or something stronger), one evening soon, and read it. There is some very interesting comments on the monitoring of radioactive cesium fallout from Chernobyl, quote:

"Concentrations of radiocaesium in upland pastures have declined progressively in the 22 years since the Chernobyl accident, as radioactivity decayed and the element moved down the soil profile and out of the root layer of the vegetation. Thus, the number of sheep in the UK under restricted movement because their muscle tissue contains
more than the intervention concentration of 1000 Bq 137Cs/kg fresh weight has decreased from 2 × 10-6- in 1986 to 200 000 in 2002
(UK Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, personal communication).

Ploughing of grassland, preceded by the incorporation of zeolite, has been found to decrease the level of radioactivity in subsequent crops by five- to sevenfold (Savchenko, 1995). However, in some unploughable upland peat soils the decrease in the concentration of Cs in herbage has been
relatively slow and movement restrictions persist (UK Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, personal communication). Sheep grazing these areas are monitored annually in May or June. If slaughter is desired, contaminated animals may be moved to uncontaminated
lowland pastures. They are monitored again 3 months later and, if the concentration of 137Cs in muscle tissue is below the current intervention limit, they may enter the food chain, subject to further monitoring at abattoirs.

Currently, in the UK the intervention concentration of 137Cs in sheep muscle tissue is under review (UK Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, personal communication). The movement of sheep from affected areas to slaughter is no longer restricted in Northern Ireland (UK Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, personal communication)."

You might be surprised to learn about all the sheep under surveillance after Chernobyl. Areas varied in Cs levels based on rainfall/deposit at the time. 2 X 10-6- is how many sheep? 2,000,000 (2 million) I'd like to know what happened(s) to the sheep that are too hot for human consumption - did alot of these animals enter the rendering process back in the post Chernobyl years (1986)?

Even if you don't care about the radioactive stuff, there is good information to consider about mining, road side pollution, bio-availability of metals etc.

Copy it out and give it to your vet and cattle associations, etc....
 

flounder

Well-known member
here is a most recent study on TSE in the soil and oral transmission there of kathy. i am sure you would want this passed around as well :lol:


PLoS ONE. 2007; 2(5): e435.
Published online 2007 May 9. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0000435.
Copyright Seidel et al. This is an open-access article distributed under the
terms of the Creative Commons Attribution License, which permits
unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the
original author and source are credited.

Scrapie Agent (Strain 263K) Can Transmit Disease via the Oral Route after
Persistence in Soil over Years

Bjoern Seidel,#1* Achim Thomzig,#2 Anne Buschmann,#3 Martin H. Groschup,3
Rainer Peters,1 Michael Beekes,2 and Konstantin Terytze4
1Fraunhofer Institute for Molecular Biology und Applied Ecology (IME),
Schmallenberg, Germany
2P24 -Transmissible Spongiform Encephalopathies, Robert Koch-Institut,
Berlin, Germany
3Institute for Novel and Emerging Infectious Diseases,
Friedrich-Loeffler-Institut, Insel Riems, Germany
4German Federal Environmental Agency (Umweltbundesamt, UBA), Dessau, Germany
Joseph El Khoury, Academic Editor
Massachusetts General Hospital & Harvard Medical School, United States of
America
#Contributed equally.
* To whom correspondence should be addressed. E-mail:
[email protected]
Conceived and designed the experiments: MB AT MG AB BS RP KT. Performed the
experiments: AT AB BS RP. Analyzed the data: MB AT MG AB BS RP KT.
Contributed reagents/materials/analysis tools: MB AT. Wrote the paper: MB AT
MG AB BS KT.
Received March 21, 2007; Accepted April 18, 2007.


Abstract

The persistence of infectious biomolecules in soil
constitutes a substantial challenge. This holds particularly true with
respect to prions, the causative agents of transmissible spongiform
encephalopathies (TSEs) such as scrapie, bovine spongiform encephalopathy
(BSE), or chronic wasting disease (CWD). Various studies have indicated that
prions are able to persist in soil for years without losing their pathogenic
activity. Dissemination of prions into the environment can occur from
several sources, e.g., infectious placenta or amniotic fluid of sheep.
Furthermore, environmental contamination by saliva, excrements or
non-sterilized agricultural organic fertilizer is conceivable. Natural
transmission of scrapie in the field seems to occur via the alimentary tract
in the majority of cases, and scrapie-free sheep flocks can become infected
on pastures where outbreaks of scrapie had been observed before. These
findings point to a sustained contagion in the environment, and notably the
soil. By using outdoor lysimeters, we simulated a contamination of standard
soil with hamster-adapted 263K scrapie prions, and analyzed the presence and
biological activity of the soil-associated PrPSc and infectivity by Western
blotting and hamster bioassay, respectively. Our results showed that 263K
scrapie agent can persist in soil at least over 29 months. Strikingly, not
only the contaminated soil itself retained high levels of infectivity, as
evidenced by oral administration to Syrian hamsters, but also feeding of
aqueous soil extracts was able to induce disease in the reporter animals. We
could also demonstrate that PrPSc in soil, extracted after 21 months,
provides a catalytically active seed in the protein misfolding cyclic
amplification (PMCA) reaction. PMCA opens therefore a perspective for
considerably improving the detectability of prions in soil samples from the
field.



snip...


DiscussionThe results of this research project show for the first time that
the scrapie strain 263K remains persistent in soil over a period of at least
29 months and remains highly infectious after oral application to Syrian
hamsters. It has to be pointed out that the key results of our time-course
study on the fate of PrPSc in soil have been validated, in part by examining
blinded samples, at independent laboratories.

Only a few studies have addressed the question of a persistence of prions in
soil so far [24]–[26], [47], and the results from these studies are in
principle in accordance with our observations. A pioneering study was
published by Brown and Gajdusek in 1991 [24] showing that an aqueous extract
from scrapie-contaminated soil remains infectious even after an incubation
period of three years as confirmed by hamster bioassay. However, the
infectivity studies were conducted by intracerebral injection and not by
oral application. Furthermore, the PrPSc concentration was not analyzed in
this study, so that no data are available about the proteins absorption
behavior to soil particles and about the corresponding degradation kinetics.
Most recently, PrPSc has been shown to bind to soil minerals [25] but only
short-time incubation experiments of maximal one week were conducted and,
again, bioassays were performed by the intracerebral route.

In this study we show by Western blotting a strong decrease in the amount of
extractable PrPSc over an incubation period of 29 months in soil. It is not
yet clear whether this decrease resulted from a molecular degradation of
PrPSc or a tighter binding to soil particles. Stronger binding of molecules
to soil particles with increasing incubation time is a well-known phenomenon
in soil chemistry – the so called “aging” – and influences bioavailability
and re-mobilization significantly [48], [49].

Upon feeding hamsters with scrapie contaminated soil which had been
incubated for over two years in outdoor lysimeters all animals developed
terminal scrapie after relatively short incubation times (162 dpi). In other
studies it has been well established that pure 10% (w/v) brain homogenates
from 263K scrapie hamsters cause terminal scrapie in perorally challenged
hamsters after mean incubation times of about 155–165 days with an attack
rate of 100% [50]–[53]. This indicates that scrapie-contaminated soil may
represent a potential TSE hazard for ruminants in the environment. While a
considerable excretion of infectivity has to be assumed for scrapie or BSE
infected sheep and CWD infected deer [40], [43], [54], it is generally
acknowledged that the potential environmental contamination risk represented
by BSE infected cattle is marginal, if at all present [41], [42]. On the
other hand, the burial of bovine carcasses [44] might have accidentally led
to a spill of BSE prions into the environment. Furthermore, the fact that
even feeding of aqueous extracts from scrapie-contaminated soil induced a
terminal scrapie infection in four hamsters so far suggests that surface
water or groundwater from pastures of scrapie-affected flocks may provide a
potential source of scrapie infectivity.

However, the relevance of the results obtained in this study for the field
situation should be interpreted with some caution, since only one soil type
was used and only a limited number of animals were challenged in the
bioassay. Therefore, other soil types and a larger number of animals have to
be tested in future studies to allow for a robust risk assessment.
Furthermore the exact binding properties and degradation kinetics of PrPSc
should be subject to further research. In addition, all published studies
addressing the persistence of prion infectivity in soil were performed with
scrapie prions while TSE agents causing BSE and especially CWD have not been
analyzed so far.

An intensified monitoring of PrPSc (and possibly also prion infectivity) in
the soil appears mandatory for a more precise assessment of the risks
emanating for humans and animals from prions in the environment. As shown in
this report, PrPSc extracted from soil can be used as a catalytically active
seed in the protein misfolding cyclic amplification (PMCA) reaction. This
opens a promising perspective for considerably improving the detectability
of prions in the environment.


snip...

for anyone interested in the full text of this article ;


http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1855989#pone.0000435-Prusiner1


http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?tool=pmcentrez&blobtype=pdf&artid=1855989



tss
 

Kathy

Well-known member
You already posted your article flounder, Terry, TSS....

Your so good at getting information, dig up - "Harrison PD & Dyer MI (1984) Lead in mule deer forage in Rocky Mountain National Park, Colorado. Journal of Wildlife Management 48, 510–517, I'm having difficulty finding this paper.

Hopefully people here will see that your repeat posting is designed to take away their attention from the "potentially toxic metals" paper.


When the prion protein aggregates/fibrils eventually get "characterized" meaning analysed for what metals and PNCs (proteon nucleating centers) exist that nucleate the the malformed proteins, and what metals are attached to the protein, etc... then we might know what is 'transmitting' disease....


Proceedings of the Nutrition Society (2003), 62, 267–277

The accumulation of potentially-toxic metals by grazing ruminants

J. M. Wilkinson1*, J. Hill2 and C. J. C. Phillips3
1School of Biology, University of Leeds, Leeds LS2 9JT, UK
2Faculty of Applied Science and Technology, Writtle College, Writtle, Chelmsford, Essex CM1 3RR, UK
3Department of Clinical Veterinary Medicine, University of Cambridge, Cambridge CB3 0ES, UK
Dr J. M. Wilkinson, present address Painshall, Church Lane, Welton, Lincoln LN2 3LT, UK, fax +44 1673 863108, email [email protected]

The main factors affecting the accumulation of potentially-toxic metals (PTM) by grazing animals are the presence of the metal, its concentration in herbage and at the soil surface, and the duration of exposure to the contaminated pasture and soil. In addition, the elapsed time between the
contamination of the pasture and grazing, the quantity of soil ingested together with herbage, the mechanism of absorption of the metal into blood and the presence or absence of antagonistic metals can interact to influence the rate and extent of accumulation of heavy metals in edible body tissues. Models of the accumulation of metals by grazing animals may be used to determine the statutory limits of radionuclides and PTM in soils under grazed pastures. Meta-analysis of existing data, using a random-effects model, is a useful approach to understanding the factors affecting the accumulation of some metals, e.g. Cd. The target edible body tissues for the accumulation of most PTM are the liver and kidneys, with the exception of radiocaesium, which accumulates in muscle
to a greater extent than in other tissues. The livers and kidneys of mature livestock that have been grazed on areas of pasture at the legal limit of contamination by Cd for more than one grazing season should be removed from the human food chain in order to reduce the risk of intake of Cd by the human population.

Potentially-toxic metals: Grazing livestock: Contaminated pasture and soil: Accumulation in edible body tissues.

Free on-line at:
http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FPNS%2FPNS62_02%2FS0029665103000429a.pdf&code=5252f014ae0179ebf111c69b82140018

This paper is 11 pages long, with 8 pages of text plus references.

It reviews the science of the day (2003) and provides in-sights to reasons why some grazing animals are more exposed to various toxic metals than others.

The data is general from the UK, with referenced material including studies from around the globe, eg: Quote:
"Pb has been found in the milk of cows grazing roadside areas (Pittia, 1992), in mule deer forage in the Rocky Mountain National Park (Harrison & Dyer, 1984) and in hay and straw samples collected from roadsides (Swarup, 1993). Ward & Savage (1994) found substantial quantities of Pb in the blood, wool and hair samples from sheep and horses grazing near the London orbital motorway."


I highly recommend you sit down with a cup of coffee (or something stronger), one evening soon, and read it. There is some very interesting comments on the monitoring of radioactive cesium fallout from Chernobyl, quote:

Quote:
"Concentrations of radiocaesium in upland pastures have declined progressively in the 22 years since the Chernobyl accident, as radioactivity decayed and the element moved down the soil profile and out of the root layer of the vegetation. Thus, the number of sheep in the UK under restricted movement because their muscle tissue contains
more than the intervention concentration of 1000 Bq 137Cs/kg fresh weight has decreased from 2 × 10-6- in 1986 to 200 000 in 2002 (UK Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, personal communication).

Ploughing of grassland, preceded by the incorporation of zeolite, has been found to decrease the level of radioactivity in subsequent crops by five- to sevenfold (Savchenko, 1995). However, in some unploughable upland peat soils the decrease in the concentration of Cs in herbage has been
relatively slow and movement restrictions persist (UK Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, personal communication). Sheep grazing these areas are monitored annually in May or June. If slaughter is desired, contaminated animals may be moved to uncontaminated
lowland pastures. They are monitored again 3 months later and, if the concentration of 137Cs in muscle tissue is below the current intervention limit, they may enter the food chain, subject to further monitoring at abattoirs.

Currently, in the UK the intervention concentration of 137Cs in sheep muscle tissue is under review (UK Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, personal communication). The movement of sheep from affected areas to slaughter is no longer restricted in Northern Ireland (UK Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, personal communication)."


You might be surprised to learn about all the sheep under surveillance after Chernobyl. Areas varied in Cs levels based on rainfall/deposit at the time. 2 X 10-6- is how many sheep? 2,000,000 (2 million) I'd like to know what happened(s) to the sheep that are too hot for human consumption - did alot of these animals enter the rendering process back in the post Chernobyl years (1986)?

Even if you don't care about the radioactive stuff, there is good information to consider about mining, road side pollution, bio-availability of metals etc.

Copy it out and give it to your vet and cattle associations, etc....
 

Ben Roberts

Well-known member
memanpa said:
THE SKY IS FALLING THE SKY IS FALLING THE SKY IS FALLING

Tell that to the victims famlies, their sky did fall. We need to look at all possibilities until we solve this issue.

Best Regards
Ben Roberts
 

Mrs.Greg

Well-known member
Ben Roberts said:
memanpa said:
THE SKY IS FALLING THE SKY IS FALLING THE SKY IS FALLING

Tell that to the victims famlies, their sky did fall. We need to look at all possibilities until we solve this issue.

Best Regards
Ben Roberts
Well as I understand it Terry is part of a victim family and hes disputing some of Kathys posts. Both Kathy and Terry need to dumb down thier information a bit so people can understand what they're saying.Another thing whos going to take the time to read 11 pages of info,as well as all the scientic info posted...get real, start telling us in words we care to understand.MMP's post makes sence if one thinks about it,all these posts are cryptic :roll:
 

Ben Roberts

Well-known member
Mrs.Greg said:
Ben Roberts said:
memanpa said:
THE SKY IS FALLING THE SKY IS FALLING THE SKY IS FALLING

Tell that to the victims famlies, their sky did fall. We need to look at all possibilities until we solve this issue.

Best Regards
Ben Roberts
Well as I understand it Terry is part of a victim family and hes disputing some of Kathys posts. Both Kathy and Terry need to dumb down thier information a bit so people can understand what they're saying.Another thing whos going to take the time to read 11 pages of info,as well as all the scientic info posted...get real, start telling us in words we care to understand.MMP's post makes sence if one thinks about it,all these posts are cryptic :roll:

I took the time to read the information, and i'm trying to understand it. There are some issues, that I have to re-read to fully understand, this issue is important to me and the industry i'm in.

Best Regards
Ben Roberts
 

Mrs.Greg

Well-known member
Ben Roberts said:
Mrs.Greg said:
Ben Roberts said:
Tell that to the victims famlies, their sky did fall. We need to look at all possibilities until we solve this issue.

Best Regards
Ben Roberts
Well as I understand it Terry is part of a victim family and hes disputing some of Kathys posts. Both Kathy and Terry need to dumb down thier information a bit so people can understand what they're saying.Another thing whos going to take the time to read 11 pages of info,as well as all the scientic info posted...get real, start telling us in words we care to understand.MMP's post makes sence if one thinks about it,all these posts are cryptic :roll:

I took the time to read the information, and i'm trying to understand it. There are some issues, that I have to re-read to fully understand, this issue is important to me and the industry i'm in.

Best Regards
Ben Roberts
Well Ben your on a ranchers site so I suspect your not the only only one this could be important to,we're all part of the same industry.Kudos to you if you took the time to read 11 pages plus,I also assume your taking the time to read all of Terrys posts to.
Everybody has an expertice in some department,if one wants to teach theres they need to start with basics,if they don't people are lost in the first few "minutes' and a safe bet is they won't be back for the second class. This is both Terry and Kathys problam,they're overloading info and no ones reading. If you notice rarely are these posts replyed to.I've read enough of thier posts to know they don't agree with each other and thier sciences,and have scoffed at the others posts almost to the point of laughter and nastiness,so its pretty easy to take them with a grain of salt.Whos right, whos wrong...who knows.There are times I believe one of them is an insomniac and spends too much time listening to The Art Bell radio program.
 

rkaiser

Well-known member
It must be noted that the so-called experts consisted in part of a Government-appointed panel that was made up of members of the Cattle Industry, The Milk Producers Association, Beef Marketing Associations and so on and so on. This tends to stack the opinions in favor of industry rather than science and to that end, not too many folks involved in prion research took seriously the findings of the so-called experts in that the experts represented their own interests rather than the interests of public safety!!!!

bsetester gave this reply to another thread. I think it has a place here as well.

If it were not for people like Kathy or Mark Purdey, the direction followed by this so called capitalist - democratic society we live in would be even more focused on money and greed. BSE is an economic issue. That is so blatantly obvious to some of us, but ignored by folks like Terry who have been hurt personally and need something or someone to blame for their hurt. Cattle did not hurt Terry, yet he continues to follow a conventional theory that is driven by money and greed. Continues to try to convince the masses that this BSE thing is simple - it is about a magical infectious transmission theory. Kathy, on the other hand has shown us time and again how BSE is a problem created by our man altered environment. Neither will convince anyone on their own - thus their choice to post data to back up their arguments. Our choice to read - and our choice to decide. I decided a long long time ago. The truth is slowly being revealed by more and more recent studies that Kathy reveals. - while Terry's conventional theory has made no forward motion, and his own "sky is falling" theory of hundreds or thousands of deaths is not happening.
 

flounder

Well-known member
rkaiser said:
truth is slowly being revealed by more and more recent studies that Kathy reveals. - while Terry's conventional theory has made no forward motion, and his own "sky is falling" theory of hundreds or thousands of deaths is not happening.


ignore the obvious rkaiser if you want, but conventional science does not support purdey's theory. it has been debunked by most every scientist out there i.e. op's or metals __being the cause__ of TSEs. you can argue till the mad cows come home, but that is fact. you, kathy, or the late purdey could not produced any data that shows this, simple as that.

an old thread with purdey and his debunked theory ;


Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 19:28:05 -0800
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Lion Kuntz <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: MARK PURDEY's Cuckoo Clan
In-Reply-To: <[email protected][192.168.123.143]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

--- Allan Balliett <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> >Dear Folks,
> >
> >Lion seems to fail to grasp my multifactorial
> aetiological position
> >on the origins of TSEs,

LION REPLIES: I grasp what you are saying. You seem to
have a had time believing that a person can review
evidence from many sources and then conclude that you
are wrong. I have formed a conclusion based on
reviewing evidence, that you are wrong, and I cited
links to the evidence I found convincing. Why do you
have trouble understanding someone can fault your
logic based on knowledge known to them?

> since all of his attempts
> to discredit my
> >hypothesis involve him selectively citing
> geographical locations
> >where only one of my causal postulates are present

LION REPLIES: Not all of my attempts to discredit this
DANGEROUS thesis have to do with the flaws in
geographical distributions of emergence of prion
diseases. The most significant issue is your
distortion of others work. Now you are also distorting
my statements, so we see a consistancy of distortion.

> and then asking
> >why TSEs do not emrge there. But this is
> unscientific critique,
> >since TSEs will only emerge where all three of
> Purdey's postulates
> >are simultaneously fulfilled;

LION REPLIES: In test tubes TSEs replicate without an
exodus of copper, without an influx of magnesium, and
without organo phosphate pollutants. This is a FATAL
flaw to your thesis that spontanious occurances are
the main threat. The evidence convinces that food
polluted with a pre-existing TSE load is the main
threat needing to be addressed for public health
defense. No particular "shocks" to the test tube
contents are required for test tube conversions of
normal to abnormal prions.

> >
> >Purdey's Postulates decree that TSE susceptible
> genotypes need to be
> >exposed to the following eco-prerequisites in order
> to develop TSEs;
> >
> >1 Low Copper.
> >
> >2 ferrimagnetically ordered metals ( there are more
> than three,
> >since shock induced transmutation of some
> paramagnetic metal atoms
> >can produce the ferrimagnetic ordered atom )
> >
> >3 High intensity electromagnetic shock ( sonic ,
> light radiations, etc ).

LION REPLIES: You have stated your case. You have not
proved your case to my satisfaction. Others have used
more rigor, mave made more convincing demonstrations.
I am not the only one who has looked at the evidence.
The CDC takes the same position I arrived at. The
Nobel Prize people would give you one with $500,000 to
send your kids to college if you could demonstrate to
their satisfaction that you evidence is true.

> >
> >
> >May I also repeat that I have never disputed that
> TSEs are
> >transmissible diseases by the laboratory injection
> route.

LION REPLIES: I respect the workers who have
demonstrated oral transmission routes many times, in
intricate detail. I object to smears on the caliber of
their work in the absense of demonstration of contrary
proof demonstrating that such work is invalid.

> But what I
> >am saying is that in the lab context, TSEs result
> from the
> >transmission of a rogue ferrimagnetic metal
> pollutant and not a
> >microbiological or protein-only agent.

LION REPLIES: In vitro and in vivo experiments do not
support this statement. The burden of proof is upon
the person making the claim which contradicts the
published work of others. The burden of proof is on
Mark Purdey, and in the absense of proof, Purdey ought
to belay besmirchment on others doing the kind of work
Purdey has not demonstrated that he is competent to
do.

Oral feeding in controlled circumstances of identical
food supplies have eliminated the possibility that
copper-manganese ratios, "shocked" metals (an
undefined and even unscientific term), or pesticides
are the important factor.

The critical factor has been oral intake of
prion-disease agents, and no immune factor has been
satisfactorally described with requisite proof.

> >Lion cites volcanic areas like Hawaii and asks why
> no TSEs ? -
> >well, there are many different types of volcanoes
> which emit
> >markedly different metal compounds - some of those
> are toxic, etc.
> >What is intriguing for me is that most volcanoes,
> like Hawaii, seem
> >to emit manganese, but it is those volcanoes that
> chuck out loads of
> >copper as well - such as on the Azores, Guam, etc
> where I have
> >tested - where there is no TSE, only other
> neurodegenerative
> >diseases tend to emerge.

LION REPLIES: I only brough out the facts that ALL of
the factors for Purdey's epidemic to occur existed in
all the places where TSEs occur, but TSEs have been
absent from most of them until the advent of forced
cannibalism of disease-sponge animals.

> >
> >However in the Fuji valley in Japan, Northern
> Iceland, Etna Italy -
> >where there are significant clusters of TSE - the
> emissions of
> >copper are undetectable from the volcanoes, whilst
> manganese and
> >some of the radioactive metals are high. And it is
> in those areas
> >where the TSE affected populations have been
> largely self sufficient
> >off their local soils , which is also deficient in
> copper too .

LION REPLIES: A future, more advanced science than
happens to historically exist at this moment will find
answers to subtle questions of minor and insignificant
pockets of spontaneous prion-diseases.

At the current moment, when the majority of the global
population enjoys much medical care at all, the
priority is on major epidemic suppression.

Lots of anonymous researchers spend lifetimes working
to improve lives of people who will never know their
benefactor's name. Sometimes generations of
researchers slowly increment understanding to a point
that practical therapies can be developed.

There might be a role for Mark Purdey, if he wants to
devote himself to it, to finding help for non-epidemic
spongiform encephalopathies which are environmentally
triggered.

However, the grave threat is allowing a contagious
form of sponge-brain killers from getting loose in the
food supply. Mark Purdey is counter to this effort,
sweeping knowledge under a rug, duping others to help
him sweep knowledge under a rug, and besmirching the
hard work of those who produced the dependable data
which refutes him. Aiding and abetting confusion is
not helpful.

> >
> >Lion raises the incident of the nuclear bombs
> dropped on Japan and
> >why no TSEs. Putting aside the fact that the CJD
> surveillance centre
> >in Japan is based at Nagasaki,

LION REPLIES: Purdey is loose with terms. CJD is the
spontaneous form. It is unfortunate that early
discovery of bSE in humans chose vCJD as the name they
used to describe a DIFFERENT DISEASE with DIFFERENT
SYMPTOMS and DIFFERENT PATTERN OF TISSUE DAMAGE. The
uninformed could be confused by the similarity in
names, and ethical people would be expected to take
pains to avoid confusing one from the other.

> there are high
> incidences of ALS in
> >these areas. But, my TSE postulates are simply
> unfulfilled by the
> >Hiroshima / Nagasaki contexts, simply because the
> Japanese have a
> >notoriously high copper rich seafood diet input.
> The two main TSE
> >clusters in Japan are in the Fuji valley and around
> a remote block
> >of former WW2 military controlled bomb testing
> range in Hokkaido..

LION REPLIES: Some Japanese have a high seafood diet.
Their cows never did. The coincidence of the receipt
of contaminated cows and contaminated feeds with BSE
already in it, and the emergence of clusters is a fact
to keep in mind while exploring all options. Purdey
himself often talks of UK export of contaminated feeds
with no evidence (according to him) of clusters of
disease at the destination.

The USA generally believes that contaminated lambs
lead to the emergence of US scrapie, and then to one
or more unidentified BSE cow, then to captive mink in
Wisconsin, in that line of succession.

Such sequences could have occurred in Japan or
elsewhere, and are not excluded from consideration in
evaluating competing hypothoses.

> >
> >In Iceland, the sheep get scrapie because they are
> dependent upon
> >copper deficient pasture land, whilst the farmers
> do not get CJD (
> >despite they eating the scrapie sheep brain ) since
> they have a
> >large copper rich seafood diet, which the sheep
> obviously do not.
> >
> >There are actually many clusters of TSEs across
> Italy, Sardinia,
> >Sicily. I have worked there alot.

LION REPLIES: You may have highlighted an important
fact, or maybe not. There is no confirmed case of
human being anywhere on earth getting sponge-brain
from diseased sheep. Perhaps seafood is a
prophylactic, or perhaps sheep prion is ineffective on
humans until passed through a Mad Cow.

> >
> >Again, Lion raises the issue of bombs dropped all
> over the world and
> >aeroplanes flying all over the world, etc, where
> TSEs do not occur .
> >
> >But I am talking about low flying military jets
> which are practised
> >regularly across populated regions here in the UK.
> We do not have
> >any unpopulated Nevada deserts !!

LION REPLIES: My arguments do not depend on planes or
absense of planes. Mark Purdey's arguments are tied to
planes or other (undefined) "shocks" to activate an
angry metalloid which turns cows and people mad.

No planes are required in the labs where test tube
conversions of normal to diseased prions have been
observed. No increase in magnesium, no escape of
copper, no trace of pesticides. Just a bad template is
sufficient, which raises plenty of delicious
intriguing possibilities, but none of these
possibilities is compatible with anything Purdey has
proposed.

Well crafted experiments have excluded Purdey's
Postulates. He should be grateful that one dead-end
has been disproven, narrowing the human attention to
the real answer.

> >
> >There are many different types of bombs producing
> different types of
> >shock wave and metal oxide residues after
> detonation. We are talking
> >about one type here.

LION REPLIES: You keep talking, and sweeping
inconvenient facts under the rug. Purdey's hypothesis
has been debunked. He finds it hard to accept that,
with kids he needs to send through college and nothing
but a debunked hypothesis to peddle on the lecture
circuit.

> >
> >There are TSE clusters emerging at the following
> military places
> >
> >1 South of Cold lake airbase Alberta / saskatch.
> >
> >2 West of Camp Wainwright Alberta/Saskatch.
> >
> >3. Amongst workers at the former Hughes missile
> plant at Tucson.
> >
> >4. Amongst deer at the White Sands missile range.
> >
> >5. NW of the Rocky Flats Nuclear weapons factory in
> Colorado ( since
> >the reported leaks of Pu)
> >
> >This is just the USA, what about all of the other
> countries's TSE
> >clusters and their link to the same issue.

LION REPLIES: There are more than that. When you sweep
enough evidence under the rug you can manage to leave
just the bits which prop up your arguments.

Pre-human-ascendancy the ecology was drastically
different. More different than most people have the
imaginative capacity to visualize. Predators such as
the dire wolf, sabertooth cat, shortnose bear
efficiently took out any defective stock. Wildfires
(not to mention the occasional ice age) purified the
landscapes in regular recurrances.

No large environmental load of
virtually-industructable prions built up in herds or
their feces. Spontaneous cases were erased before it
went anywhere.

In the human altered landscape many unpredictable and
new diseases will emerge from this strange new world.

Also, in previous generations, medical and scientific
technology was just not sophisticated enough to detect
some things we now take as everyday knowledge. More
soldiers died of medical malpractice in the US civil
war than any other cause.

> >
> >NB. Lion raises a false picture on the leicester
> cluster of vCJD.
> >This situation of small village butchers buying
> local cattle went on
> >all over the UK . But there was a big munitions
> factory at
> >Queniborough - the village where all of these vCJD
> cases occured.

LION REPLIES: On the contrary. I quoted a well
detailed investigation which displayed more rigor than
anything I have seen produced by Mark Purdey. I didn't
sweep it under the rug -- I simply linked to it, and
quoted enticing bits to encourage others to review it
for themselves.

One certainly hopes there were no big explosion at
this munitions factory. That would shock more than
metals.

Is this spurious fact introduced to make some new
claim that merely the presence of unexploded munitions
are sufficient to provoke an epidemic? I remind you
that munitions have been manufactured all over Europe
and the globe. Their main ingredient is nitrates,
which in former days were mined from Chilean guano.
The Napoleonic wars were fought with guano munitions.

Sponge-brain diseases, Mad Cow and human-vCJD, waited
until animal cannibalism was a common practice.

While other TSEs are NOT GOOD, they are not a problem
of the human food chain. The largest global cluster of
HUMAN spnge-brain was the KURU of New Guinea, where
cannibalism was the distinguishing factor. The brains
were eaten raw, no cookware, and cookware was not a
universal feature among tribe members. The epidemic
arose prior to the plane crash.

> >
> >Likewise, another cluster of vCJD at Lymphstone
> village near me in
> >Devon. This was blamed on the local butchers shop,
> but some f the
> >vCJD victims were from the big marine military camp
> near the village
> >, and they obviously purchased their beef from big
> wholesalers, not
> >the village butcher.

LION REPLIES: The report I cited did not guess. It
asked the people where they bought their meats. It
sought out the butchers and asked their source of
meats. It sought out people in retirement and asked
them what the practices were in the slaughterhouses
they worked in.

It is dilgent admirable detective work, arduously
compiled by people with pride in their work and a
dedication to NOT GUESS. There has been lots of
innunendo from Mark Purdey that knows things because
he has "been there", but nothing but drive-bys and
picking up samples of dirt have been demonstrated so
far.

> >
> >So your theory is simply redundant Lion. Did the
> CWD wild deer in
> >Colorado cannibalise each other, or the scrapie
> Icelandic sheep as
> >well ??

LION REPLIES: What you introduced about clusters does
not invalidate the known facts about orally-infectious
sponge-brain death. Your is redundant. Infectious
prions are expected to be long lived in the
environment, which is not regularly cleansed by fire
and predators.

I have personally witnessed at a distance of ten
meters, on multiple occasions, male deer lick the
genital/anal areas of female deer. The base of the
spine is the anal area, and diseased prions have been
regularly located in the small intestine and anus --
two prohibited organs under modern food safety
regulations.

We now know that infectious prions can exist in yeast.
Can we find any organism which does not have prions if
we really look?

Before you burst into this current round of BSE
discussions (smearing me by name before I ever heard
of you and before I ever mentioned you), I myself
introduced the mysteriousness of deer, elk, and
squirrel sponge-brain diseases which have killed human
hunters.

There are many competing hypotheses of the spreading
of these wild-animal sponge-brains. Yours is not the
best one of the bunch. There are many encephalopathic
viruses: West Nile, St Louis.

Here is a link I find interesting:
http://www.cwd-info.org/index.php/fuseaction/resources.baiting


* Deer can get CWD by ingesting something
contaminated with the disease prion
* CWD prions may be shed in feces and saliva
* Disease course and symptoms indicate high
potential for transmission where deer are concentrated
* Evidence from captive situations indicates that
deer can get CWD from highly contaminated
environments.
* Baiting and Feeding causes unnatural
concentration of deer
* Reduction of contact through a ban on baiting
and feeding is likely very important to eradicating or
containing a CWD outbreak.
* Baiting and feeding continues to put Wisconsin's
deer herd at risk to other serious diseases

Your hypothesis has to compete with all others. It is
not doing so effectively, quite possibly (becides the
logical contradictions) your opaque writing style and
weak evidentary protocals. Stop blaming the waning of
your popularity on others and take such
self-corrective actions as is within your personal
power.

> >
> >And why did 15%-25% of cows slaughtered after BSE
> diagnosis (
> >depending on the year ) fail to demonstarte the
> presence of prions
> >at post mortem ????? This breaks the protein-only
> fulfillment of
> >Koch's postulates. Surley ?

LION REPLIES: You have not presented a link to the
data you are depending upon. There are 6 billion
people on earth, and nobody can know what all of them
are writing. What I can say is this: prion-presence is
the diagnose. Prion-absense is false-positive of a
PRELIMINARY diagnosis. Human medical malpractice is
rife with misdiagnosis despite much more stringent
controls.

Do cows have estates who can sue for false diagnosis.
After long denial and abdication of responsibility
(perhaps componded by gadflys stirring up confusion)
the British authorities may have had an excess of
caution when they contemplated their kids dying from
their neglect.

Tell me more about what the 15% to 25% were ultimately
diagnosed with, so I can judge if there is superficial
similarity of external symptoms.

> >
> >Furthermore, there is powerful evidence where
> copper deficiency has
> >produced spongiform encephalopathy. during the
> 1970s a copper
> >chelating agent called cuprizone was used in the
> laboratories at
> >Compton UK to induce scrapie in laboratory mice.
> Many papers are
> >published on this, but they ignore the fact that
> this agent is a
> >copper chelator like an organo dithiophosphate.

LION REPLIES: Oral transmission is sufficient to
understand the threat to human life, but there may be
multiple routes to prion corruption in the absense of
a pre-existing template.

The greater body of evidence is convincing to me, and
you have made assertions here without links to
specific data which I do not find compelling, that
oral trasmission of sponge-brain is a brushfire with
the capacity to grow to a monsterous conflagration in
a generations time if this generation does not stamp
it out.

Breaking oral transmission routes was effective in
Kuru and effective in BSE. I believe in PURE FOODS and
am surprised that a person alleged to be an organic
farmer cannot bring himself to absolutely condemn
forced animal carnivorism to herbivores.

> >
> >One question, Lion, which you did not answer
> before. what are Meyers
> >Patches ?

LION REPLIES: My misspelling. (Not the first time, nor
will it be the last time.) I would expect anyone
claiming to have surveyed the literature on prion
disease research to have made the leap to Peyer's
Patches.

Since you didn't, and seem uninformed about them, here
are links to update your databanks.

http://www.google.com/search?q=Prions+Peyer%27s+patches+oral&num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&output=search
Searched the web for Prions Peyer's patches oral.
Results 1 - 63 of about 156.
Search took 0.16 seconds.

<quote>-------------------------
http://www1.umn.edu/eoh/hazards/hazardssite/prions/prionabsorb.html
Prions
Absorption & Distribution

Prion diseases are transmissible orally and
parenterally. The BSE epidemic, the kuru epidemic, and
the rise of new variant CJD is thought to have come
about by ingestion of prion contaminated foodstuffs.
Rodents, sheep, calves, deer and non-human primates
can be experimentally infected with prions by oral
route.

Soon after experimental intragastric or oral exposure
of rodents with prions (PrPSc), infectivity and PrPSc
accumulate first in Peyer's patches, gut-associated
lymphoid tissues and ganglia of the enteric nervous
system. Likewise, following experimental oral exposure
of mule deer fawns with prions that cause Chronic
Wasting Disease (CWD) in deer, PrPSc are also detected
first in lymphoid tissues draining the
gastro-intestinal tract. Infected placenta and
contaminated feces has been suggested as the source of
scrapie prions in sheep. The detection of PrPSc in
Peyer's patches and gut-associated lymphoid tissues
prior to detection within the CNS suggests scrapie is
also a prion disease acquired orally. Experimentally,
transmission by dental route has been shown in
hamsters (1,2).
<end quote>-------------------------

> >
> >Funny how you have the time to write so much. How
> do you make a living ?
> >
> >Best,
> >
> >Mark

LION REPLIES: There is nothing funny about it.

My cost for computer was paid long ago.

My cost for internet is less than $1 a day.

It costs nothing to sign up for SANET.

And I have significant amounts of time due to
diabeties complications upon additional health issues
currently under medical re-evaluation.

I am not sending kids to college off a theory I have
to run the lecture circuit to sell, and therefore I
have no financial gain from having my opinions proved
or disproved.

I believe in responsibility, but a person who doesn't
will assume I am a sociopath like they are.

I believe in the precautionary principle, even though
my load of health indicators shows a ten-times higher
than average for a person of my age risk for sudden or
swift onset of death/debilitation. This means I stand
to gain NOTHING from a brighter future, but still
stand resolute to see that one occurs.

As far as I am concerned I am in a race against time
to create a legacy, published on a website out of the
peanuts of my income. It costs $35.40 per year for my
website hosting, and $6/year for the domain name.

I resent the time it takes to refute a debunked,
already proven faulty thesis, which has dangerous
implications of people letting their guard down from
defending a pure food supply. Purdey seems
single-minded in wanting to keep the door ajar for
oral infectiousness by peddling an alternative weak
hypothesis unsupported by experimental proof. In this
he shares the satanic-honor-role with the USDA which
purposefully omitted spleens from the list of banned
organs.



=====
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Sincerely, Lion Kuntz
Santa Rosa, California, USA
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Suggested Websites:
Wesley Clark for President http://www.clark04.com/
http://www.ecosyn.us/ecocity/Ecosyn/Flowchart.html
http://www.ecosyn.us/ecocity/Ecosyn/IBS_Math.html
http://www.ecosyn.us/ecocity/Proposal/Palaces_For_The_People.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Palaces4People/
http://P4P.blogspot.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

__________________________________
 

Kathy

Well-known member
There will probably never be enough information from research papers, many of them very new, to convince flounder, or Kuntz, of facts which were first brought to light by the investigations of Mark Purdey.

It is very unpalatable for them to accept that the prion protein alone is not responsible for diseases associated with the accumulation of malformed proteins.

At the Prion symposium 2006 in Calgary, which my husband attended, the expert panel, including Danny Matthews of the Veterinary Labs Association of UK, OIE BSE expert, and British top dog with BSE was asked:

"Have you characterized the malformed prion protein?"

Matthews answer was "NO".

To characterize the malformed prion protein (or any protein for that matter) is to identify all the elements which make up that protein and at what concentrations, ie; how much manganese, sulfur, copper, zinc, carbon, nitrogen, oxygen........

Identifying the very basics of composition is vital.

David R. Brown (presently of Bath University) and many others have identified that the healthy prion protein functions properly with copper attached to it; they started work with replacing copper ions with manganese and other metals (like nickel).... These are typical examples of the abstracts which I have posted here.

It has been shown that these other metals are capable of attaching to the prion protein, even in the presence of copper. Many factors affect the binding affinity of metals to proteins. This "homeostasis" or balancing act is complex to say the least. BIO-AVAILABILITY is the key issue when dealing with the ability of proteins to utilize these metals.

Moving forward, it was finally shown that transmission did not occur in any way shape or form, without there being at the very least dimers of fragments of proteins nucleated on nanoclusters of metals (or "suitable particulate"). The question is if the prion alone cannot transmit disease, why then does the prion protein attached to the nucleating metal centers transmit disease?

The need for more intensive research into the nature of these metal nucleating centers is evident, yet largely ignored.. Why?

Once again, the question is what causes the initial malformation of proteins, what mechanisms of cleansing/clearing the body of these malformed proteins is not working and why?

Precautions have been taken which have helped. Feeding of meat and bone meal to ruminants was halted.. Yes, there was a drop in BSE cases, but remember... there are many contaminants in meat and BONE MEAL which are being ignored... again, why?

Why is it that you never hear of analysis of MBM for heavy metals, chemicals or radio-active nuclides? We know they are measuring it in meat, by the confirmation that they monitored 2 million sheep in the UK after Chernobyl. They continue to monitor 200,000 sheep and restrict their movement and consumption.

Offal that was rendered would contain organ meat that was very likely contaminated (at various levels) with these metals, ie: kidneys. and Peyer's Patches have been identified as a major location for 'depleted uranium' accumulation.

The only radionuclide which I have seen written evidence, which demonstrates that it accumulates in muscle meat is cesium. Others are more concentrated in bones or kidneys. Like the moose study from Saskatchewan which "surprisingly" identified 4 cows (cattle) which did not live near uranium mine tailings - but had extremely high levels of radionuclides in their bones.

The problem that I see every day is the unwillingness of indivuals to get involved and educate themselves. If you don't care and you can't be bothered to read-up on information that directly affects your livelihood or health.... what will you do to educate yourself?

I have most definitely learned that getting the message across in terminology that everyone can understand is the most challenging problem. Mark often discussed this, but he felt in the long run that if he could get through to those doing the actual research, he would make a better dent in the situation.

If you think he was making money off this process to "send his kids to school".... you are a fool! And to make such comments with or without personal knowledge of Mark's situation is slander.

I argue that the "transmission experiments", be they oral exposure or intracranial injection... have failed to ever "characterize" what they are feeding, drenching, or injecting into the next animal....

Only a small number of researchers have taken time to look at what elements change in the brain after injection of "homogenate" into lab animals (and reviewed the element levels in diseased brains upon autospy)..... With TSEs manganese became extremely elevated, and copper was found to be majorly decreased in these circumstances. To argue that metal homeostasis has nothing to do with these diseases is criminal.

Dr. Vitaly Vodyanoy of Auburn University in Alabama has demonstrated the presence of PNCs (proteon nucleating centers consisting of nanoclusters of metals) in the blood of healthy animals. These PNCs were capable of binding/nucleating protein fragments; and in his further experiments, certain PNCs (metal nanoclusters found in blood) were extremely lethal to cancer cells, in vitro.

This wealth of information is a breaking point in examining how and why some metals are capable of reversible nucleation of protein fragments and prevention of disease; and why other metal nanoclusters are causing "irreversibe" binding to protein fragments and causing disease.

I am not here to argue with flounder, but to present the other side of the story which has difficulty getting out there to the public.

If you get to a point of understanding of proteins, where you see that the manufacture of malformed proteins by the cell is controlled by many many factors, then you will see that to test one process, on its own, can lead to false answers.

The catalytic effect of internalized radio-nuclides which emit ionizing radiation, alpha or beta particles, can transform a healthy protein into a malformed-mishaped protein. It is imperative to know exactly what elements are being "transmitted" in experiments.
 
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