rkaiser said:
truth is slowly being revealed by more and more recent studies that Kathy reveals. - while Terry's conventional theory has made no forward motion, and his own "sky is falling" theory of hundreds or thousands of deaths is not happening.
ignore the obvious rkaiser if you want, but conventional science does not support purdey's theory. it has been debunked by most every scientist out there i.e. op's or metals __being the cause__ of TSEs. you can argue till the mad cows come home, but that is fact. you, kathy, or the late purdey could not produced any data that shows this, simple as that.
an old thread with purdey and his debunked theory ;
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 19:28:05 -0800
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
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Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
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From: Lion Kuntz <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: MARK PURDEY's Cuckoo Clan
In-Reply-To: <
[email protected][192.168.123.143]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Allan Balliett <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> >Dear Folks,
> >
> >Lion seems to fail to grasp my multifactorial
> aetiological position
> >on the origins of TSEs,
LION REPLIES: I grasp what you are saying. You seem to
have a had time believing that a person can review
evidence from many sources and then conclude that you
are wrong. I have formed a conclusion based on
reviewing evidence, that you are wrong, and I cited
links to the evidence I found convincing. Why do you
have trouble understanding someone can fault your
logic based on knowledge known to them?
> since all of his attempts
> to discredit my
> >hypothesis involve him selectively citing
> geographical locations
> >where only one of my causal postulates are present
LION REPLIES: Not all of my attempts to discredit this
DANGEROUS thesis have to do with the flaws in
geographical distributions of emergence of prion
diseases. The most significant issue is your
distortion of others work. Now you are also distorting
my statements, so we see a consistancy of distortion.
> and then asking
> >why TSEs do not emrge there. But this is
> unscientific critique,
> >since TSEs will only emerge where all three of
> Purdey's postulates
> >are simultaneously fulfilled;
LION REPLIES: In test tubes TSEs replicate without an
exodus of copper, without an influx of magnesium, and
without organo phosphate pollutants. This is a FATAL
flaw to your thesis that spontanious occurances are
the main threat. The evidence convinces that food
polluted with a pre-existing TSE load is the main
threat needing to be addressed for public health
defense. No particular "shocks" to the test tube
contents are required for test tube conversions of
normal to abnormal prions.
> >
> >Purdey's Postulates decree that TSE susceptible
> genotypes need to be
> >exposed to the following eco-prerequisites in order
> to develop TSEs;
> >
> >1 Low Copper.
> >
> >2 ferrimagnetically ordered metals ( there are more
> than three,
> >since shock induced transmutation of some
> paramagnetic metal atoms
> >can produce the ferrimagnetic ordered atom )
> >
> >3 High intensity electromagnetic shock ( sonic ,
> light radiations, etc ).
LION REPLIES: You have stated your case. You have not
proved your case to my satisfaction. Others have used
more rigor, mave made more convincing demonstrations.
I am not the only one who has looked at the evidence.
The CDC takes the same position I arrived at. The
Nobel Prize people would give you one with $500,000 to
send your kids to college if you could demonstrate to
their satisfaction that you evidence is true.
> >
> >
> >May I also repeat that I have never disputed that
> TSEs are
> >transmissible diseases by the laboratory injection
> route.
LION REPLIES: I respect the workers who have
demonstrated oral transmission routes many times, in
intricate detail. I object to smears on the caliber of
their work in the absense of demonstration of contrary
proof demonstrating that such work is invalid.
> But what I
> >am saying is that in the lab context, TSEs result
> from the
> >transmission of a rogue ferrimagnetic metal
> pollutant and not a
> >microbiological or protein-only agent.
LION REPLIES: In vitro and in vivo experiments do not
support this statement. The burden of proof is upon
the person making the claim which contradicts the
published work of others. The burden of proof is on
Mark Purdey, and in the absense of proof, Purdey ought
to belay besmirchment on others doing the kind of work
Purdey has not demonstrated that he is competent to
do.
Oral feeding in controlled circumstances of identical
food supplies have eliminated the possibility that
copper-manganese ratios, "shocked" metals (an
undefined and even unscientific term), or pesticides
are the important factor.
The critical factor has been oral intake of
prion-disease agents, and no immune factor has been
satisfactorally described with requisite proof.
> >Lion cites volcanic areas like Hawaii and asks why
> no TSEs ? -
> >well, there are many different types of volcanoes
> which emit
> >markedly different metal compounds - some of those
> are toxic, etc.
> >What is intriguing for me is that most volcanoes,
> like Hawaii, seem
> >to emit manganese, but it is those volcanoes that
> chuck out loads of
> >copper as well - such as on the Azores, Guam, etc
> where I have
> >tested - where there is no TSE, only other
> neurodegenerative
> >diseases tend to emerge.
LION REPLIES: I only brough out the facts that ALL of
the factors for Purdey's epidemic to occur existed in
all the places where TSEs occur, but TSEs have been
absent from most of them until the advent of forced
cannibalism of disease-sponge animals.
> >
> >However in the Fuji valley in Japan, Northern
> Iceland, Etna Italy -
> >where there are significant clusters of TSE - the
> emissions of
> >copper are undetectable from the volcanoes, whilst
> manganese and
> >some of the radioactive metals are high. And it is
> in those areas
> >where the TSE affected populations have been
> largely self sufficient
> >off their local soils , which is also deficient in
> copper too .
LION REPLIES: A future, more advanced science than
happens to historically exist at this moment will find
answers to subtle questions of minor and insignificant
pockets of spontaneous prion-diseases.
At the current moment, when the majority of the global
population enjoys much medical care at all, the
priority is on major epidemic suppression.
Lots of anonymous researchers spend lifetimes working
to improve lives of people who will never know their
benefactor's name. Sometimes generations of
researchers slowly increment understanding to a point
that practical therapies can be developed.
There might be a role for Mark Purdey, if he wants to
devote himself to it, to finding help for non-epidemic
spongiform encephalopathies which are environmentally
triggered.
However, the grave threat is allowing a contagious
form of sponge-brain killers from getting loose in the
food supply. Mark Purdey is counter to this effort,
sweeping knowledge under a rug, duping others to help
him sweep knowledge under a rug, and besmirching the
hard work of those who produced the dependable data
which refutes him. Aiding and abetting confusion is
not helpful.
> >
> >Lion raises the incident of the nuclear bombs
> dropped on Japan and
> >why no TSEs. Putting aside the fact that the CJD
> surveillance centre
> >in Japan is based at Nagasaki,
LION REPLIES: Purdey is loose with terms. CJD is the
spontaneous form. It is unfortunate that early
discovery of bSE in humans chose vCJD as the name they
used to describe a DIFFERENT DISEASE with DIFFERENT
SYMPTOMS and DIFFERENT PATTERN OF TISSUE DAMAGE. The
uninformed could be confused by the similarity in
names, and ethical people would be expected to take
pains to avoid confusing one from the other.
> there are high
> incidences of ALS in
> >these areas. But, my TSE postulates are simply
> unfulfilled by the
> >Hiroshima / Nagasaki contexts, simply because the
> Japanese have a
> >notoriously high copper rich seafood diet input.
> The two main TSE
> >clusters in Japan are in the Fuji valley and around
> a remote block
> >of former WW2 military controlled bomb testing
> range in Hokkaido..
LION REPLIES: Some Japanese have a high seafood diet.
Their cows never did. The coincidence of the receipt
of contaminated cows and contaminated feeds with BSE
already in it, and the emergence of clusters is a fact
to keep in mind while exploring all options. Purdey
himself often talks of UK export of contaminated feeds
with no evidence (according to him) of clusters of
disease at the destination.
The USA generally believes that contaminated lambs
lead to the emergence of US scrapie, and then to one
or more unidentified BSE cow, then to captive mink in
Wisconsin, in that line of succession.
Such sequences could have occurred in Japan or
elsewhere, and are not excluded from consideration in
evaluating competing hypothoses.
> >
> >In Iceland, the sheep get scrapie because they are
> dependent upon
> >copper deficient pasture land, whilst the farmers
> do not get CJD (
> >despite they eating the scrapie sheep brain ) since
> they have a
> >large copper rich seafood diet, which the sheep
> obviously do not.
> >
> >There are actually many clusters of TSEs across
> Italy, Sardinia,
> >Sicily. I have worked there alot.
LION REPLIES: You may have highlighted an important
fact, or maybe not. There is no confirmed case of
human being anywhere on earth getting sponge-brain
from diseased sheep. Perhaps seafood is a
prophylactic, or perhaps sheep prion is ineffective on
humans until passed through a Mad Cow.
> >
> >Again, Lion raises the issue of bombs dropped all
> over the world and
> >aeroplanes flying all over the world, etc, where
> TSEs do not occur .
> >
> >But I am talking about low flying military jets
> which are practised
> >regularly across populated regions here in the UK.
> We do not have
> >any unpopulated Nevada deserts !!
LION REPLIES: My arguments do not depend on planes or
absense of planes. Mark Purdey's arguments are tied to
planes or other (undefined) "shocks" to activate an
angry metalloid which turns cows and people mad.
No planes are required in the labs where test tube
conversions of normal to diseased prions have been
observed. No increase in magnesium, no escape of
copper, no trace of pesticides. Just a bad template is
sufficient, which raises plenty of delicious
intriguing possibilities, but none of these
possibilities is compatible with anything Purdey has
proposed.
Well crafted experiments have excluded Purdey's
Postulates. He should be grateful that one dead-end
has been disproven, narrowing the human attention to
the real answer.
> >
> >There are many different types of bombs producing
> different types of
> >shock wave and metal oxide residues after
> detonation. We are talking
> >about one type here.
LION REPLIES: You keep talking, and sweeping
inconvenient facts under the rug. Purdey's hypothesis
has been debunked. He finds it hard to accept that,
with kids he needs to send through college and nothing
but a debunked hypothesis to peddle on the lecture
circuit.
> >
> >There are TSE clusters emerging at the following
> military places
> >
> >1 South of Cold lake airbase Alberta / saskatch.
> >
> >2 West of Camp Wainwright Alberta/Saskatch.
> >
> >3. Amongst workers at the former Hughes missile
> plant at Tucson.
> >
> >4. Amongst deer at the White Sands missile range.
> >
> >5. NW of the Rocky Flats Nuclear weapons factory in
> Colorado ( since
> >the reported leaks of Pu)
> >
> >This is just the USA, what about all of the other
> countries's TSE
> >clusters and their link to the same issue.
LION REPLIES: There are more than that. When you sweep
enough evidence under the rug you can manage to leave
just the bits which prop up your arguments.
Pre-human-ascendancy the ecology was drastically
different. More different than most people have the
imaginative capacity to visualize. Predators such as
the dire wolf, sabertooth cat, shortnose bear
efficiently took out any defective stock. Wildfires
(not to mention the occasional ice age) purified the
landscapes in regular recurrances.
No large environmental load of
virtually-industructable prions built up in herds or
their feces. Spontaneous cases were erased before it
went anywhere.
In the human altered landscape many unpredictable and
new diseases will emerge from this strange new world.
Also, in previous generations, medical and scientific
technology was just not sophisticated enough to detect
some things we now take as everyday knowledge. More
soldiers died of medical malpractice in the US civil
war than any other cause.
> >
> >NB. Lion raises a false picture on the leicester
> cluster of vCJD.
> >This situation of small village butchers buying
> local cattle went on
> >all over the UK . But there was a big munitions
> factory at
> >Queniborough - the village where all of these vCJD
> cases occured.
LION REPLIES: On the contrary. I quoted a well
detailed investigation which displayed more rigor than
anything I have seen produced by Mark Purdey. I didn't
sweep it under the rug -- I simply linked to it, and
quoted enticing bits to encourage others to review it
for themselves.
One certainly hopes there were no big explosion at
this munitions factory. That would shock more than
metals.
Is this spurious fact introduced to make some new
claim that merely the presence of unexploded munitions
are sufficient to provoke an epidemic? I remind you
that munitions have been manufactured all over Europe
and the globe. Their main ingredient is nitrates,
which in former days were mined from Chilean guano.
The Napoleonic wars were fought with guano munitions.
Sponge-brain diseases, Mad Cow and human-vCJD, waited
until animal cannibalism was a common practice.
While other TSEs are NOT GOOD, they are not a problem
of the human food chain. The largest global cluster of
HUMAN spnge-brain was the KURU of New Guinea, where
cannibalism was the distinguishing factor. The brains
were eaten raw, no cookware, and cookware was not a
universal feature among tribe members. The epidemic
arose prior to the plane crash.
> >
> >Likewise, another cluster of vCJD at Lymphstone
> village near me in
> >Devon. This was blamed on the local butchers shop,
> but some f the
> >vCJD victims were from the big marine military camp
> near the village
> >, and they obviously purchased their beef from big
> wholesalers, not
> >the village butcher.
LION REPLIES: The report I cited did not guess. It
asked the people where they bought their meats. It
sought out the butchers and asked their source of
meats. It sought out people in retirement and asked
them what the practices were in the slaughterhouses
they worked in.
It is dilgent admirable detective work, arduously
compiled by people with pride in their work and a
dedication to NOT GUESS. There has been lots of
innunendo from Mark Purdey that knows things because
he has "been there", but nothing but drive-bys and
picking up samples of dirt have been demonstrated so
far.
> >
> >So your theory is simply redundant Lion. Did the
> CWD wild deer in
> >Colorado cannibalise each other, or the scrapie
> Icelandic sheep as
> >well ??
LION REPLIES: What you introduced about clusters does
not invalidate the known facts about orally-infectious
sponge-brain death. Your is redundant. Infectious
prions are expected to be long lived in the
environment, which is not regularly cleansed by fire
and predators.
I have personally witnessed at a distance of ten
meters, on multiple occasions, male deer lick the
genital/anal areas of female deer. The base of the
spine is the anal area, and diseased prions have been
regularly located in the small intestine and anus --
two prohibited organs under modern food safety
regulations.
We now know that infectious prions can exist in yeast.
Can we find any organism which does not have prions if
we really look?
Before you burst into this current round of BSE
discussions (smearing me by name before I ever heard
of you and before I ever mentioned you), I myself
introduced the mysteriousness of deer, elk, and
squirrel sponge-brain diseases which have killed human
hunters.
There are many competing hypotheses of the spreading
of these wild-animal sponge-brains. Yours is not the
best one of the bunch. There are many encephalopathic
viruses: West Nile, St Louis.
Here is a link I find interesting:
http://www.cwd-info.org/index.php/fuseaction/resources.baiting
* Deer can get CWD by ingesting something
contaminated with the disease prion
* CWD prions may be shed in feces and saliva
* Disease course and symptoms indicate high
potential for transmission where deer are concentrated
* Evidence from captive situations indicates that
deer can get CWD from highly contaminated
environments.
* Baiting and Feeding causes unnatural
concentration of deer
* Reduction of contact through a ban on baiting
and feeding is likely very important to eradicating or
containing a CWD outbreak.
* Baiting and feeding continues to put Wisconsin's
deer herd at risk to other serious diseases
Your hypothesis has to compete with all others. It is
not doing so effectively, quite possibly (becides the
logical contradictions) your opaque writing style and
weak evidentary protocals. Stop blaming the waning of
your popularity on others and take such
self-corrective actions as is within your personal
power.
> >
> >And why did 15%-25% of cows slaughtered after BSE
> diagnosis (
> >depending on the year ) fail to demonstarte the
> presence of prions
> >at post mortem ????? This breaks the protein-only
> fulfillment of
> >Koch's postulates. Surley ?
LION REPLIES: You have not presented a link to the
data you are depending upon. There are 6 billion
people on earth, and nobody can know what all of them
are writing. What I can say is this: prion-presence is
the diagnose. Prion-absense is false-positive of a
PRELIMINARY diagnosis. Human medical malpractice is
rife with misdiagnosis despite much more stringent
controls.
Do cows have estates who can sue for false diagnosis.
After long denial and abdication of responsibility
(perhaps componded by gadflys stirring up confusion)
the British authorities may have had an excess of
caution when they contemplated their kids dying from
their neglect.
Tell me more about what the 15% to 25% were ultimately
diagnosed with, so I can judge if there is superficial
similarity of external symptoms.
> >
> >Furthermore, there is powerful evidence where
> copper deficiency has
> >produced spongiform encephalopathy. during the
> 1970s a copper
> >chelating agent called cuprizone was used in the
> laboratories at
> >Compton UK to induce scrapie in laboratory mice.
> Many papers are
> >published on this, but they ignore the fact that
> this agent is a
> >copper chelator like an organo dithiophosphate.
LION REPLIES: Oral transmission is sufficient to
understand the threat to human life, but there may be
multiple routes to prion corruption in the absense of
a pre-existing template.
The greater body of evidence is convincing to me, and
you have made assertions here without links to
specific data which I do not find compelling, that
oral trasmission of sponge-brain is a brushfire with
the capacity to grow to a monsterous conflagration in
a generations time if this generation does not stamp
it out.
Breaking oral transmission routes was effective in
Kuru and effective in BSE. I believe in PURE FOODS and
am surprised that a person alleged to be an organic
farmer cannot bring himself to absolutely condemn
forced animal carnivorism to herbivores.
> >
> >One question, Lion, which you did not answer
> before. what are Meyers
> >Patches ?
LION REPLIES: My misspelling. (Not the first time, nor
will it be the last time.) I would expect anyone
claiming to have surveyed the literature on prion
disease research to have made the leap to Peyer's
Patches.
Since you didn't, and seem uninformed about them, here
are links to update your databanks.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Prions+Peyer%27s+patches+oral&num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&output=search
Searched the web for Prions Peyer's patches oral.
Results 1 - 63 of about 156.
Search took 0.16 seconds.
<quote>-------------------------
http://www1.umn.edu/eoh/hazards/hazardssite/prions/prionabsorb.html
Prions
Absorption & Distribution
Prion diseases are transmissible orally and
parenterally. The BSE epidemic, the kuru epidemic, and
the rise of new variant CJD is thought to have come
about by ingestion of prion contaminated foodstuffs.
Rodents, sheep, calves, deer and non-human primates
can be experimentally infected with prions by oral
route.
Soon after experimental intragastric or oral exposure
of rodents with prions (PrPSc), infectivity and PrPSc
accumulate first in Peyer's patches, gut-associated
lymphoid tissues and ganglia of the enteric nervous
system. Likewise, following experimental oral exposure
of mule deer fawns with prions that cause Chronic
Wasting Disease (CWD) in deer, PrPSc are also detected
first in lymphoid tissues draining the
gastro-intestinal tract. Infected placenta and
contaminated feces has been suggested as the source of
scrapie prions in sheep. The detection of PrPSc in
Peyer's patches and gut-associated lymphoid tissues
prior to detection within the CNS suggests scrapie is
also a prion disease acquired orally. Experimentally,
transmission by dental route has been shown in
hamsters (1,2).
<end quote>-------------------------
> >
> >Funny how you have the time to write so much. How
> do you make a living ?
> >
> >Best,
> >
> >Mark
LION REPLIES: There is nothing funny about it.
My cost for computer was paid long ago.
My cost for internet is less than $1 a day.
It costs nothing to sign up for SANET.
And I have significant amounts of time due to
diabeties complications upon additional health issues
currently under medical re-evaluation.
I am not sending kids to college off a theory I have
to run the lecture circuit to sell, and therefore I
have no financial gain from having my opinions proved
or disproved.
I believe in responsibility, but a person who doesn't
will assume I am a sociopath like they are.
I believe in the precautionary principle, even though
my load of health indicators shows a ten-times higher
than average for a person of my age risk for sudden or
swift onset of death/debilitation. This means I stand
to gain NOTHING from a brighter future, but still
stand resolute to see that one occurs.
As far as I am concerned I am in a race against time
to create a legacy, published on a website out of the
peanuts of my income. It costs $35.40 per year for my
website hosting, and $6/year for the domain name.
I resent the time it takes to refute a debunked,
already proven faulty thesis, which has dangerous
implications of people letting their guard down from
defending a pure food supply. Purdey seems
single-minded in wanting to keep the door ajar for
oral infectiousness by peddling an alternative weak
hypothesis unsupported by experimental proof. In this
he shares the satanic-honor-role with the USDA which
purposefully omitted spleens from the list of banned
organs.
=====
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Sincerely, Lion Kuntz
Santa Rosa, California, USA
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Suggested Websites:
Wesley Clark for President http://www.clark04.com/
http://www.ecosyn.us/ecocity/Ecosyn/Flowchart.html
http://www.ecosyn.us/ecocity/Ecosyn/IBS_Math.html
http://www.ecosyn.us/ecocity/Proposal/Palaces_For_The_People.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Palaces4People/
http://P4P.blogspot.com
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