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Rule 2

flounder

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
Terry--I've asked this before and you've never answered it....


i don't recall you asking me this before. i dont mind answering though. ...tss


Do you believe that countries that know they have BSE should be trading live animals and beef (and BSE) back and forth--especially when the countries involved have differing rules of SRM removal and feedbans.?


NO ! (this especially includes the USA). i have stated this time and time ;



Docket No. 03-080-1 -- USDA ISSUES PROPOSED RULE TO ALLOW LIVE ANIMAL
IMPORTS FROM CANADA


snip...


> In recent correspondence, the
> Director General of the OIE acknowledged that there has been an "increase
> in unjustified restrictions in international trade, particularly as it
> relates to cattle and cattle products." The letter was in response to a
> request from Secretary Veneman, Agricultural Minister Lyle Vanclief,
> Canada, and Agriculture Secretary Javier Usabiaga, Mexico, to the OIE to
> provide more practical guidance regarding the resumption of trade with
> countries that have reported cases of BSE.


IF THE OIE CHANGES BSE/TSE GUIDELINES NOW (as weak as they are),
just because the USA, Canada and Mexico does not like them. then all the
work all
other countries have done to erradicate this horrible disease from the
planet over the last
3 decades will go for naught, and the agent will continue to spread...

Terry S. Singeltary Sr.
P.O. Box 42
Bacliff, Texas USA 77518


https://web01.aphis.usda.gov/BSEcom.nsf/0/b78ba677e2b0c12185256dd300649f9d?OpenDocument&AutoFramed


Importation of Whole Cuts of Boneless Beef from Japan [Docket No. 05-004-1]
RIN 0579-AB93 TSS SUBMISSION


----- Original Message -----
From: Terry S. Singeltary Sr.
To: [email protected] ; [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 9:16 AM
Subject: Importation of Whole Cuts of Boneless Beef from Japan [Docket No.
05-004-1] RIN 0579-AB93 TSS SUBMISSION


Greetings Dr. Colgrove and Miss Johnson,

Thank you for taking this submission via email. i have had trouble
submitting via the comment page due to the length of my submission. I was
not sure that my file attachment that i submitted via the ;

EDOCKET: Go to http://www.epa.gov/feddocket


I submitted yesterday, just did not know if the file reached anyone. so to
make sure, I am sending to you to submit for me.

many thanks,

Terry


From: TSS ()
Subject: Importation of Whole Cuts of Boneless Beef from Japan [Docket No.
05-004-1] RIN 0579-AB93 TSS SUBMISSION
Date: August 24, 2005 at 2:47 pm PST

August 24, 2005

Importation of Whole Cuts of Boneless Beef from Japan [Docket No. 05-004-1]
RIN 0579-AB93 TSS SUBMISSION


Greetings APHIS ET AL,

My name is Terry S. Singeltary Sr.


I would kindly like to comment on [Docket No. 05-004-1] RIN 0579-AB93 ;


PROPOSED RULES
Exportation and importation of animals and animal products:
Whole cuts of boneless beef from-
Japan,
48494-48500 [05-16422]


[Federal Register: August 18, 2005 (Volume 70, Number 159)]
[Proposed Rules]
[Page 48494-48500]
From the Federal Register Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov]
[DOCID:fr18au05-7]

========================================================================

snip...


WE MUST ADHERE TO THE BSE GBR RISK ASSESSMENTS, WE MUST WORK TO ENHANCE
THOSE BSE GBR RISK ASSESSMENTS TO INCLUDE ALL ANIMAL TSEs, USDA/APHIS/GW ET
ALs BSE MRR (Minimal Risk Region) should be REPEALED/DISBANDED/TRASHED/NADA
and done away with for good. The BSE MRR policy is nothing more than a legal
tool to trade all strains of TSEs globally...


Terry S. Singeltary Sr.

P.O. Box 42

Bacliff, Texas USA 77518


Your Comment with Title "[Docket


http://docket.epa.gov/edkfed/do/EDKStaffItemDetailView?objectId=090007d480993808


http://docket.epa.gov/edkfed/do/EDKStaffAttachDownloadPDF?objectId=090007d480993808


http://docket.epa.gov/edkfed/do/EDKStaffCollectionDetailView?objectId=0b0007d48096b40d


snip...


MY personal belief, since you ask, is that not only the Canadian border, but
the USA border, and the Mexican border should be sealed up tighter than a
drum for exporting there TSE tainted products, until a validated, 100%
sensitive test is available, and all animals for human and animal
consumption are tested. all we are doing is the exact same thing the UK did
with there mad cow poisoning when they exported it all over the globe, all
the while knowing what they were doing. this BSE MRR policy is nothing more
than a legal tool to do just exactly what the UK did, thanks to the OIE and
GW, it's legal now. and they executed Saddam for poisoning ???

go figure....


Terry S. Singeltary Sr.
P.O. Box 42
Bacliff, Texas USA 77518


Comment Submitted
Comment Receipt

Thank you. Your comment on Document ID: APHIS-2006-0041-0001 has been sent.
Comment Tracking Number: APHIS-2006-0041-DRAFT-0028...tss



Does this not just make the possibility of containment, control, and eradication that much more difficult?



YES INDEED, this is why the USDA/FDA et al have failed so terribly, not only in surveillance and eradication, but the feed ban violations were grossly ignored, the FDA's mad cow feed ban was nothing more than ink on paper, with literally millions and millions of tons of banned mad cow protein going into commerce as recently as 2007. ...tss


Since we have decided to take and trade beef and cattle with Canada (another BSE country)- should us and Canada then open our trade up to live cattle/beef from Europe-- from the UK?


your not paying attention again OT, please reference above, in short,
NO! but please read again ;


http://cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39794




I'm sure there are some folks that would love the opportunity of importing some new Continental bloodlines-- or UK cattle...
 

Sandhusker

Well-known member
QUESTION said:
I see what you want to be said . You want some one to support your position but your position can't be supported. Are there any more cattle that are BSE positive in canada, if not then there is no threat of BSE entering the US from canada and if the USDA wants to be sure, just test every OTM animal from canada upon slaughter in the USA. But NO you don't want to fix the problem or test animals you just want to keep the border closed just like you mind.

Obviously, the USDA is not concerned about being sure. They say the chances are "low", but they can't offer a scale on how they determined what "low" actually is. Thus, they give a subjective arbitrary opinion while claiming they are using science.

My opinion can and has been supported - the can't is that you can't refute it. Here's the challenge again for the umpteenth time; Tell me how Canadian BSE can't be introduced into the US under the rule. You can't do it.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Sorry terry--but some times I have trouble sorting thru your posts and figuring out what its saying---But this is what I was wondering- as I thought you had indicated it before....And I pretty much agree with your stance...To me if we have to lean one way or the other in a stance-- we should lean to the side of human safety/herd health over the economics and politics.....When there is this big a risk involved I prefer to err on the side of safety.....And continual trading of diseased cattle back and forth- will only keep the disease spreading and going that much longer--especially with the Type II (sporadic) BSE if it is not caused by feed and by some other contagious factor.....

-----------------------------------------------------------

Terry--I've asked this before and you've never answered it....
i don't recall you asking me this before. i dont mind answering though. ...tss


Do you believe that countries that know they have BSE should be trading live animals and beef (and BSE) back and forth--especially when the countries involved have differing rules of SRM removal and feedbans.?
NO ! (this especially includes the USA). i have stated this time and time ;

Does this not just make the possibility of containment, control, and eradication that much more difficult?

YES INDEED, this is why the USDA/FDA et al have failed so terribly, not only in surveillance and eradication, but the feed ban violations were grossly ignored, the FDA's mad cow feed ban was nothing more than ink on paper, with literally millions and millions of tons of banned mad cow protein going into commerce as recently as 2007. ...tss


Since we have decided to take and trade beef and cattle with Canada (another BSE country)- should us and Canada then open our trade up to live cattle/beef from Europe-- from the UK?

your not paying attention again OT, please reference above, in short,
NO! but please read again ;
 

QUESTION

Well-known member
TSS how does anyone know if US beef is safe i just look at articles you have posted about feed ban violations and downer cows going into the human food chain without bse testing. All i can say is the US is at very least wreckless if not negligent. As for the protectionists saying our numbers show US beef is safe that is a joke if you don't test how do you know the real numbers. LMAO Rcalf is grasping at staws.
 

flounder

Well-known member
QUESTION said:
TSS how does anyone know if US beef is safe i just look at articles you have posted about feed ban violations and downer cows going into the human food chain without bse testing. All i can say is the US is at very least wreckless if not negligent. As for the protectionists saying our numbers show US beef is safe that is a joke if you don't test how do you know the real numbers. LMAO Rcalf is grasping at staws.


i agree with you on every aspect there question. you can't.
in fact, the june 2004 enhanced BSE cover-up, was just that.
but they even bungled that, could not do that right.
then had to shut it down, cause the BSe was so deep, they
could not afford to find another typical or atypical case
before putting into place this BSE MRR policy........tss
 

Sandhusker

Well-known member
Question, "As for the protectionists saying our numbers show US beef is safe that is a joke if you don't test how do you know the real numbers"

Canada's not testing them all, either, but they claim their beef is safe.... how do they know, Q?

Have you come up with how the rule won't allow Canadian BSE into the US, or did you just decide to ignore that trivial issue - after all, trade is really what's important, isn't it?
 

QUESTION

Well-known member
Sand H if you want keep this argument going best of luck ,but it is pointless as it is a matter of when and not If OTM canadian cattle are allowed into the US under rule 2.
As far as testing for BSE, all the positive cases were voluntarily submitted meaning if a canadian producer sees a cow acting strangely we get it tested and if you want a guarentee every animal sent down if allowed under rule 2 the answer is simple test them in the US. Or do you want them killed, processed and tested up here, but then would you willing to accept the test results. If history is indication you would not accept results from out side the US. The fact is it seems nothing is ever good enough for r-calf unless they can set the rules, be the prosecutor, judge and executioner. So if you want rule 2 cow beef declared BSE free test it yourself as that is the only thing that will make you happy. If the real issue is consumer safety. :wink:
 

Sandhusker

Well-known member
QUESTION said:
Sand H if you want keep this argument going best of luck ,but it is pointless as it is a matter of when and not If OTM canadian cattle are allowed into the US under rule 2.
As far as testing for BSE, all the positive cases were voluntarily submitted meaning if a canadian producer sees a cow acting strangely we get it tested and if you want a guarentee every animal sent down if allowed under rule 2 the answer is simple test them in the US. Or do you want them killed, processed and tested up here, but then would you willing to accept the test results. If history is indication you would not accept results from out side the US. The fact is it seems nothing is ever good enough for r-calf unless they can set the rules, be the prosecutor, judge and executioner. So if you want rule 2 cow beef declared BSE free test it yourself as that is the only thing that will make you happy. If the real issue is consumer safety. :wink:

Why do you insist on yapping about testing? Testing is another issue. I'm talking about the rule, which has nothing to do with testing. I'm also not argueing. I made a statement concerning the rule and challenged any of you to show me wrong. I'm still waiting.
 

QUESTION

Well-known member
Sand H you want proof of a double negative,- prove that health cattle are healthy if they are to be shipped to the US . Do you honestly think a cow showing clinical sings of BSE would be shipped to the US, yeah there are herds of them guys are just waiting to ship when the border craks open :roll: I am making a sarcastic joke if you can't tell. All i am saying is if you want proof that no BSE is coming in from canada test all canadian cattle slaughtered in the US. We accept that canadian beef is safe to eat as we test high risk animals. How many animals are left in the age range that could be infected with BSE in canada. According to stats canada the average age of culling of a commercial cow is 7. We are working our way out of this and unless age verified animal must be born after 99, how many high risk cows are left up here to go to the US. Logic and science states canadian cows are safe, too bad the same can't be said for US beef.
 

Sandhusker

Well-known member
QUESTION said:
Sand H you want proof of a double negative,- prove that health cattle are healthy if they are to be shipped to the US . Do you honestly think a cow showing clinical sings of BSE would be shipped to the US, yeah there are herds of them guys are just waiting to ship when the border craks open :roll: I am making a sarcastic joke if you can't tell. All i am saying is if you want proof that no BSE is coming in from canada test all canadian cattle slaughtered in the US. We accept that canadian beef is safe to eat as we test high risk animals. How many animals are left in the age range that could be infected with BSE in canada. According to stats canada the average age of culling of a commercial cow is 7. We are working our way out of this and unless age verified animal must be born after 99, how many high risk cows are left up here to go to the US. Logic and science states canadian cows are safe, too bad the same can't be said for US beef.

I'm asking you to prove to me that Canadian BSE won't come down here under the rule. You STILL haven't done that. If logic and science say your cows are safe, you should be able to do it. What's the holdup?

Cattle can appear healthy but still carry prions - the same prions that get recycled via intraspecies transmission.

Your last positive was born in 2003. How many cattle older than 4 does stats Canada say you have?
 

QUESTION

Well-known member
Thanx for proving my point if you want to prove there is such a problem with BSE in the OTM canadian cowherd test the OTM cattle slaughtered in the US after rule 2 opens the border then you can close it for another 4 to 5 years, the problem is you won't find any positives from canada. There will be nothing that can be done by canadian cattlemen if you find as many positives as you predict you can. I guess my thought is open the border then and prove there is an epidemic of BSE in the OTM canadian cattle or shut the hell up already. And grab on to your next cause de jour COOL.
 

Sandhusker

Well-known member
QUESTION said:
Thanx for proving my point if you want to prove there is such a problem with BSE in the OTM canadian cowherd test the OTM cattle slaughtered in the US after rule 2 opens the border then you can close it for another 4 to 5 years, the problem is you won't find any positives from canada. There will be nothing that can be done by canadian cattlemen if you find as many positives as you predict you can. I guess my thought is open the border then and prove there is an epidemic of BSE in the OTM canadian cattle or shut the hell up already. And grab on to your next cause de jour COOL.

I'm asking you to prove to me that Canadian BSE won't come down here under the rule. You STILL haven't done that
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
In other words- Sandhusker-- Old Questionable is again shooting from the hip-- and can't prove or even give a logical supposition that BSE infected cattle won't/can't be coming into the US under Rule 2...

When you have the experts saying Canadian cattle are 26 times higher the risk--and their own TSE top expert Dr. Cashman giving his expert opinion of 50 BSE infected cattle in Canada-- its impossible to say none will be one of those that cross the border-- to possibly be tested inside the US again costing our cattle market Billions $ like the Washington cow did-- or to, God forbid, enter our food chain or slip thru the loopholes in our feedban..... :( :mad:
 

DiamondSCattleCo

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
When you have the experts saying Canadian cattle are 26 times higher the risk

You really need to rethink your wording here, OT. It should read SOME experts quoting the risk is 26 times higher.

Of course the ones who actually graduated high school understand that US and Canadian cattle are equal risk, so barring entry in EITHER DIRECTION is simply rediculous.

Rod
 

Sandhusker

Well-known member
DiamondSCattleCo said:
Oldtimer said:
When you have the experts saying Canadian cattle are 26 times higher the risk

You really need to rethink your wording here, OT. It should read SOME experts quoting the risk is 26 times higher.

Of course the ones who actually graduated high school understand that US and Canadian cattle are equal risk, so barring entry in EITHER DIRECTION is simply rediculous.

Rod

Try telling an insurance underwriter that the risk is the same.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
DiamondSCattleCo said:
Oldtimer said:
When you have the experts saying Canadian cattle are 26 times higher the risk

You really need to rethink your wording here, OT. It should read SOME experts quoting the risk is 26 times higher.

Of course the ones who actually graduated high school understand that US and Canadian cattle are equal risk, so barring entry in EITHER DIRECTION is simply rediculous.

Rod

So you're saying your lead TSE expert in Canada--that heads the Canadian CFIA BSE committee is an idiot... :???:

Now that really scares me......
 

DiamondSCattleCo

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
DiamondSCattleCo said:
Oldtimer said:
When you have the experts saying Canadian cattle are 26 times higher the risk

You really need to rethink your wording here, OT. It should read SOME experts quoting the risk is 26 times higher.

Of course the ones who actually graduated high school understand that US and Canadian cattle are equal risk, so barring entry in EITHER DIRECTION is simply rediculous.

Rod

So you're saying your lead TSE expert in Canada--that heads the Canadian CFIA BSE committee is an idiot... :???:

Now that really scares me......

So tell me OT, when you were a lawman, did you like to twist things around to make the innocent seem guilty? Our TSE expert said there may be 50 animals in animals, he did NOT say our risk was 26 times greater than the US's. Only a nitwit would believe the 26 times statement.

Rod
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
DiamondSCattleCo said:
Oldtimer said:
DiamondSCattleCo said:
You really need to rethink your wording here, OT. It should read SOME experts quoting the risk is 26 times higher.

Of course the ones who actually graduated high school understand that US and Canadian cattle are equal risk, so barring entry in EITHER DIRECTION is simply rediculous.

Rod

So you're saying your lead TSE expert in Canada--that heads the Canadian CFIA BSE committee is an idiot... :???:

Now that really scares me......

So tell me OT, when you were a lawman, did you like to twist things around to make the innocent seem guilty? Our TSE expert said there may be 50 animals in animals, he did NOT say our risk was 26 times greater than the US's. Only a nitwit would believe the 26 times statement.

Rod

The USDA's independent study said that from their statistics on testing and number found--they thought there was 2-3 BSE cattle in the US....

You take 26 (the CDC figure) times 2 (the number USDA statistics show are in the US) and you come up with about 50--which is exactly what your own head TSE expert is saying.... :eek:

And as a Lawman-- and now as a Judge I used/use expert witnesses daily---and the credibility and weight given their evidence presented is judged by their experience and training, and from everything I've been able to read or learn about both the CDC and Dr. Cashman--they are very reliable...
Dr. Cashman is recognized as one of the top TSE experts in the world-- and just because he won't just give a politically correct answer for the Canucks that want it- makes him more credible in my eye....

Maybe you care to answer Sandhuskers question that old Questionable refused to answer-- How can you prove that Canada would not send down infected cattle or beef with this OTM rule? :???:
 

Kato

Well-known member
How can you prove infected American cattle are not coming into Canada? :shock: :shock: We allow imports of your cattle.

If your industry standards are being upheld, then your question is irrelevant.

SRM's are removed at the packing plants in both of our countries. That is the safeguard for the human consumption of any beef, from anywhere.

If you say that processing Canadian cattle in your country is a danger, then you must also be saying that processing American cattle is a danger because you don't think your industry standards are being upheld. To follow your logic farther, I guess that means that you would recommend Americans only buy their beef if it's processed in Canadian plants, since the safeguards are followed here. :wink: :wink:

Oh yea, and how can you prove infected American cattle are not coming into Canada?
 

DiamondSCattleCo

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
The USDA's independent study said that from their statistics on testing and number found--they thought there was 2-3 BSE cattle in the US....
<snip>
Maybe you care to answer Sandhuskers question that old Questionable refused to answer-- How can you prove that Canada would not send down infected cattle or beef with this OTM rule? :???:

That study was done years ago. Has anyone bothered to figure it out lately? And I find it odd that you disregard all things USDA, at least with respect to BSE, but cling stubbornly to that laughable 2-3 number...

As far as Sandhuskers question, it really makes no difference. We're both equal risk. So the US sends 10,000 critters north. Thats 10,000 of our own critters who will head south. Since the chances of having BSE in either group of those 10,000 are EXACTLY the same, it really doesn't make any difference. Actually, I'd say we're more likely to be importing BSE, since its mostly going to be boxed beef headed south and live cattle headed north, and we all know how good your non-existent testing/SRM protocols are....
 

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