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Rule 2

Sandhusker

Well-known member
DiamondSCattleCo said:
Oldtimer said:
The USDA's independent study said that from their statistics on testing and number found--they thought there was 2-3 BSE cattle in the US....
<snip>
Maybe you care to answer Sandhuskers question that old Questionable refused to answer-- How can you prove that Canada would not send down infected cattle or beef with this OTM rule? :???:

That study was done years ago. Has anyone bothered to figure it out lately? And I find it odd that you disregard all things USDA, at least with respect to BSE, but cling stubbornly to that laughable 2-3 number...

As far as Sandhuskers question, it really makes no difference. We're both equal risk. So the US sends 10,000 critters north. Thats 10,000 of our own critters who will head south. Since the chances of having BSE in either group of those 10,000 are EXACTLY the same, it really doesn't make any difference. Actually, I'd say we're more likely to be importing BSE, since its mostly going to be boxed beef headed south and live cattle headed north, and we all know how good your non-existent testing/SRM protocols are....

How can the risk be exactly the same when we don't even have the same strain?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Kato said:
How can you prove infected American cattle are not coming into Canada? :shock: :shock: We allow imports of your cattle.

I can't...We can't...That is the reason that I don't believe BSE countries should be trading back and forth OTM beef or live cattle of any age....

If your industry standards are being upheld, then your question is irrelevant.

SRM's are removed at the packing plants in both of our countries. That is the safeguard for the human consumption of any beef, from anywhere.

SRM removal does not guarantee 100% removal of BSE prions from beef--and with the mistakes made regularly in the slaughter plants its hard to tell what the percentage actually is....Somehow I don't feel comfortable putting my grandchildrens safety in the hands of some Mexican or Somalian immigrant who can't speak or read English- and probably doesn't even know what a prion or SRM is.....

If you say that processing Canadian cattle in your country is a danger, then you must also be saying that processing American cattle is a danger because you don't think your industry standards are being upheld. To follow your logic farther, I guess that means that you would recommend Americans only buy their beef if it's processed in Canadian plants, since the safeguards are followed here. :wink: :wink:

Do your Somalian workers even know how to say prion or SRM :???: :wink: :wink:

Oh yea, and how can you prove infected American cattle are not coming into Canada?

Like I said--I can't...We can't...You can't- Canada can't...That is the reason that I don't believe BSE countries should be trading back and forth OTM beef or live cattle of any age....We could be sending infected cattle back and forth further spreading the disease-- eroding the possibility of ever eradicating it...It is not even known if the Type II BSE that was found in the US is transmitted by feed...Many of the worlds leading scientists believe not-- and that it is transmitted by some type of contact....

 
A

Anonymous

Guest
DiamondSCattleCo said:
Oldtimer said:
The USDA's independent study said that from their statistics on testing and number found--they thought there was 2-3 BSE cattle in the US....
<snip>
Maybe you care to answer Sandhuskers question that old Questionable refused to answer-- How can you prove that Canada would not send down infected cattle or beef with this OTM rule? :???:

That study was done years ago. Has anyone bothered to figure it out lately? And I find it odd that you disregard all things USDA, at least with respect to BSE, but cling stubbornly to that laughable 2-3 number...

As far as Sandhuskers question, it really makes no difference. We're both equal risk. So the US sends 10,000 critters north. Thats 10,000 of our own critters who will head south. Since the chances of having BSE in either group of those 10,000 are EXACTLY the same, it really doesn't make any difference. Actually, I'd say we're more likely to be importing BSE, since its mostly going to be boxed beef headed south and live cattle headed north, and we all know how good your non-existent testing/SRM protocols are....

So we just keep shipping it back and forth-eh--just keep it spreading :???: :roll: It is not even known if the Type II BSE that was found in the US is transmitted by feed...Many of the worlds leading scientists believe not-- and that it is transmitted by some type of contact- or body fluids.... And the US feedban has loopholes that could allow the Canadian beef to slip thru-spreading it more in the US--since there is proof positive it didn't work in Canada without additional restrictions.....
 

Sandhusker

Well-known member
Kato said:
How can you prove infected American cattle are not coming into Canada? :shock: :shock: We allow imports of your cattle.

If your industry standards are being upheld, then your question is irrelevant.

SRM's are removed at the packing plants in both of our countries. That is the safeguard for the human consumption of any beef, from anywhere.

If you say that processing Canadian cattle in your country is a danger, then you must also be saying that processing American cattle is a danger because you don't think your industry standards are being upheld. To follow your logic farther, I guess that means that you would recommend Americans only buy their beef if it's processed in Canadian plants, since the safeguards are followed here. :wink: :wink:

Oh yea, and how can you prove infected American cattle are not coming into Canada?

Why can't anybody stay on topic (the USDA's rule) and address the dang question? The biggest danger lies in recycling BSE prions from Canadian cattle. The rule has nothing to do with testing, industry standards, etc.... This rule will allow Canadian BSE to be recycled in our herd through the loopholes in our feed ban. After years of harping about those holes here, some of you seem to have forgotten all about it. And don't tell me "You've already got it" because we don't - different strain. And if Canada is worried about a risk from US cattle and beef, you shouldn't be taking it. "Trade" is no excuse. How in the hell did "trade" ever get a higher priority than safey or common sense?
 

QUESTION

Well-known member
Test and prove that OTM's from canada have BSE and you can shut the border permanently after all allegations aren't enough you have to substanciate them. What are you so scared of SandH.
And what about your own governments stats that show the USDA should be finding 2-3 BSE positives in native US animals per year since 2003 even on the low end that is 8 not two where are the other 6 positives. Oh yeah the made it thru the human food chain and their MBM has been fed to other cattle. Keep up the denial when this blows up it will make the canadian problems look minor. You are missing what is happening by letting canadian OTMs into the US it may force you guys to actually test high risk US cattle to prove your allegation , but the flip side is when you will actually be testing high risk US cattle it might be amazing that you start finding way more US native cattle that are BSE positives. It might even force you to close loopholes in your feedban would that not be a good thing. Man are you in denial you do have BSE or do you think your government lying about your two positives. As far as it being a different strain of BSE that is BS- BSE is BSE who cares what strain it is . IS it less virulent than other strains the fact is NO. So prove your allegations. The fact is you can't until Canadian OTM's are tested. But keep on ranting and raving Like i have said before it isn't a matter of if but when OTM's from canada are in the US.
 

Sandhusker

Well-known member
So your arguement against Canadian BSE entering under the rule is that it hasn't been proven that Canada has BSE or that Canadian BSE has prions? :shock:

That makes as much sense as your effective ban date.
 

QUESTION

Well-known member
SandH you have to learn to read. Alligations aren't enough if you want to make alligations you have to substanciate them. You say The canadian cattle will bring in BSE into the US herd, (By the way you already have BSE in the native US cowherd) prove it, if the problem is as big as you say it will only take one day any you should be able to find many BSE positive OTM canadian cattle and you can shut the border for years again. But for some reason you seem to be afraid to back up your words. Maybe because you know your claims cannot be substanciated. :oops:
As for myself i have no problem with rule 2 or the dates, i can't that is all set by the USDA and FDA they are departments in a foreign governemt so i have no influence with them. If you have a problem with rule 2 go a head and submit to the panel as there is a 60 day comment period. Complain on here all you want if you really want to stop OTM's go a head and make a presentation to the panel hearing comments , but remember you will have to support your reasoning with science and data other wise you will be dismissed as a kook by the panel. Unlike on this forum where you can make all the unsubstanciated claims you want and don't have to support them. In conclusion either put up or shut up. prove what you are saying. but there is a problem you can't.
 

Sandhusker

Well-known member
Allegations? 5 cases born after March, 1999 are not allegations.

Using your logic, Canada is out of line for keeping out animals from FMD countries without testing them all individually. Canada would be out of line for recalling bagged greens without testing each one individually for ecoli.

You're in denial. Unless you acknowledge the reality of your post-ban cases, the reality that any one of them could of been sent down here under the rule, and the reality that you can't tell me how it isn't likely that the trend would continue, you're in way over your head.
 

Kato

Well-known member
This whole argument is just hot air anyway. :roll: :roll: :roll:

The way the dollar is going, pretty soon there are not going to be any live cattle heading south at all any more. When the dollar is par, the price of live cattle here will be your price less freight. It will just plain cost too much. With the expanded capacity in Canada now, the cattle will just quit travelling, and will be processed here. MCOOL will be the final piece of the puzzle, and will guarantee it. We'll get less for our cattle, and so will you because your plants will not keep running at the capacity they are now.

Therefore you can look forward to seeing more boxes with the Maple Leaf on them, less processing in your plants, and lots of ads educating American consumers about the high safety standards and quality of that nice tender barley fed beef.

The Canadian Beef Export Federation is working on it right now. :!:
 

PORKER

Well-known member
When the dollar is par, the price of live cattle here will be your price less freight.

It almost made it Today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Ben Roberts

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
[
And as a Lawman-- and now as a Judge I used/use expert witnesses daily---and the credibility and weight given their evidence presented is judged by their experience and training, and from everything I've been able to read or learn about both the CDC and Dr. Cashman--they are very reliable...


Oldtimer, in all of your years in the legal world, have you ever seen a expert witness, with credibility. Given the evidence, by a prosecutor that knows how to lead a witness, be wrong! I have, and i'm not in the legal world. But then I suppose, one that belives, Canadian beef imported into this country, labeled Product Of Canada, is fraud, wouldn't be able to see anything, that was not within a vivid picture created by his own imagination.

Best Regards
Ben Roberts
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Ben Roberts said:
Oldtimer, in all of your years in the legal world, have you ever seen a expert witness, with credibility. Given the evidence, by a prosecutor that knows how to lead a witness, be wrong! I have, and i'm not in the legal world. But then I suppose, one that belives, Canadian beef imported into this country, labeled Product Of Canada, is fraud, wouldn't be able to see anything, that was not within a vivid picture created by his own imagination.

Best Regards
Ben Roberts

I have seen many expert witnesses with credibility--having had the chance to work with some of the top forensic Pathologists and forensic experts in the world...Dr. Pfaff and Dr. Mueller come to mind first....

A good Judge-once he decides a witness qualifies as an expert-- will not only allow an expert witness to testify to his opinion-but will allow him to testify to the facts or evidence surrounding what lead him to his decision and his expertise-- and leave the weight of the testimony to the Jury...Most expert witness's will tell you they cannot answer many yes or no questions without the need to quantify them.....

Sounds like you're thinking the Canadian ranchers attorney is a snake-- and mislead the good Dr. Cashman- EH..... :???: :wink: :lol:
 

HAY MAKER

Well-known member
Kato said:
This whole argument is just hot air anyway. :roll: :roll: :roll:

The way the dollar is going, pretty soon there are not going to be any live cattle heading south at all any more. When the dollar is par, the price of live cattle here will be your price less freight. It will just plain cost too much. With the expanded capacity in Canada now, the cattle will just quit travelling, and will be processed here. MCOOL will be the final piece of the puzzle, and will guarantee it. We'll get less for our cattle, and so will you because your plants will not keep running at the capacity they are now.

Therefore you can look forward to seeing more boxes with the Maple Leaf on them, less processing in your plants, and lots of ads educating American consumers about the high safety standards and quality of that nice tender barley fed beef.

The Canadian Beef Export Federation is working on it right now. :
!:

There is no doubt in my mind,what you state about the canadian beef export federation is true.
The sad part for the *USA* rancher is the beef check off folks are probably helping them...............good luck

PS looks like R CALF has their work cut out already.
 

Ben Roberts

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
[
I have seen many expert witnesses with credibility--having had the chance to work with some of the top forensic Pathologists and forensic experts in the world...Dr. Pfaff and Dr. Mueller come to mind first....


The question was, have you ever seen one that was wrong!

Best Regards
Ben Roberts
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Ben Roberts said:
Oldtimer said:
[
I have seen many expert witnesses with credibility--having had the chance to work with some of the top forensic Pathologists and forensic experts in the world...Dr. Pfaff and Dr. Mueller come to mind first....


The question was, have you ever seen one that was wrong!

Best Regards
Ben Roberts

I've have seen it where they were flat proven wrong-- a former Montana hair technician specialist comes to mind...Many times I've seen "hired gun" experts blown out of the saddle on the witness stand by the testimony of several other experts...

For enough money you can find an "expert" that will testify to about any opinion you want--but most can't stand up to close scrutiny of the reasons for their theory or opinion--- or override the testimony of the true experts that have a solid foundation to their opinion....Thats the reason the jurors have to give their own weight to the credibility of the experts testimony....

In the case of Dr. Cashman- I find it interesting that he stands nothing to gain from his opinion- which actually goes against CFIA's 20+ cases number (who has an economic/political bias)- and he is backed up by the opinion of the US Center for Disease Control...
Gives his number a lot of weight and credibility-- more than CFIA for sure..
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
S.S.A.P. said:
Is it my imagination or does there seem to be a strong criminal element around Oldtimer's area !

I went to the criminal elements area--major reason I got to see a lot of the areas of Saskatchewan and Alberta I have... :wink: :lol:
 

QUESTION

Well-known member
Kinad makes a guy wonder? Too bad people are living in the past. When cattle were being sent down to the US in large numbers the canadian dollars was around 70 cents US and trucking was about half the price it is now. And they aren't taking that into account. I checked the money markets at 8 am the canadian dollar was at 99.94 to a US dollar. How soon until US producers want to ship US beef up here. If this keeps on going like the money markets latest projections the canadian dollar will be worth 1.15 US by the new year. So rule 2 and COOL will be a moot point. And let us not forget to mention David Emerson Minister of International Trade is negociating with South Korea and China to resume trade in beef. All i can say is Hopefully our neighbors across the pond are tired of not getting what they want. And decide canadians might be easier to deal with. You see Canada takes alot more goods from those countries than we send there aka. trade deficte. So hopefully the deal gets done i hope US cattlemen won't be too upset if they lose that market to canadian beef. When that happens i will be among the first to thank r-calf.
 

Sandhusker

Well-known member
QUESTION said:
Kinad makes a guy wonder? Too bad people are living in the past. When cattle were being sent down to the US in large numbers the canadian dollars was around 70 cents US and trucking was about half the price it is now. And they aren't taking that into account. I checked the money markets at 8 am the canadian dollar was at 99.94 to a US dollar. How soon until US producers want to ship US beef up here. If this keeps on going like the money markets latest projections the canadian dollar will be worth 1.15 US by the new year. So rule 2 and COOL will be a moot point. And let us not forget to mention David Emerson Minister of International Trade is negociating with South Korea and China to resume trade in beef. All i can say is Hopefully our neighbors across the pond are tired of not getting what they want. And decide canadians might be easier to deal with. You see Canada takes alot more goods from those countries than we send there aka. trade deficte. So hopefully the deal gets done i hope US cattlemen won't be too upset if they lose that market to canadian beef. When that happens i will be among the first to thank r-calf.

You go, Girl!
 

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