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Same-Sex marriage

Mike

Well-known member
One of the cases before SCOTUS is "Proposition 8", a legally qualified state proposition voted on by the people of California whether to allow the right to full marriage status between those of the same sex. It was voted down.

The court has been asked to decide whether the Ca. voter's wishes should be upheld? I don't get it.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/fullpage/sex-marriage-sex-marriage-status-united-states-state-16715343

The other measure is "Defense Of Marriage Act", or "DOMA". A law passed and signed by Clinton on making a marriage strictly between a man and a woman. Clinton, Buckwheat, and several politicians have changed their minds and are now saying the law was "Unconstitutional".

All of this crap is mind boggling. Just as murder is illegal and has been throughout history in the USA, so has marriage between same sexes.

Is SCOTUS supposed to change morality based laws depending on popularity at that time?

We are going down a huge slippery slope based on the "Laws Of Nature" and morals. How far does this go?

The case of Windsor is interesting in that she and her same sex spouse were married in Canada and the crux of the suit is because of a tax return denial in the State of New York.

So same sex marriage all boils down to money.........................
 

cutterone

Well-known member
Well the wife and I have discussed at some length and I am stricklly against same sex marriage although what someone else does is ok with me as long as they don't force it apon me and kids. She asked me why I am so against it and my reply that there are two things I am not prepaired to throw in the trash - the Constitution and the Bible.
According the the youth of today they want to lable this a freedom. The problem with all youth they have a mixed conception of what freedom means. Basicly youth want the freedom to do anything but never get to the part where it means there are consiquences to your actions and that freedom does not mean that can do anything that has an affect to someone else.
I supose the answer to this and other delemas is to do away with any laws, rules, taxation, etc. and has to do with marriage and everyone will just be a individual and then you take away their argument.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I'm not sure- but without yet hearing the Justices arguments I have a feeling they may let the Proposition 8 stand- since it is a voters initiative and states rights issue too...

But I think the DOMA may fall because it discriminates against over a thousand programs that economically/socially impact same sex couples that have civil unions/marriages in the states that allow them...Ex.- veteran's benefits, including pensions and survivor benefits; taxes on income, estates, gifts, and property sales; and benefits due federal employees, both civilian and military, Social Security, housing, and food stamps, and immigration purposes to name a few...And now that the military has authorized same sex marriage in the military- same-sex spouses of military personnel are denied the same access to military bases, legal counseling, and housing allowances provided to different-sex spouses...

I'm not an advocate of same sex marriages- but believe that couples should be allowed to enter into same sex civil unions- which guarantees them all the government rights of a married heterosexual couple... If that's the life they want to live so be it- and the government should not discriminate against them if that is their choice....
 

Whitewing

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
I'm not sure- but without yet hearing the Justices arguments I have a feeling they may let the Proposition 8 stand- since it is a voters initiative and states rights issue too...

But I think the DOMA may fall because it discriminates against over a thousand programs that economically/socially impact same sex couples that have civil unions/marriages in the states that allow them...Ex.- veteran's benefits, including pensions and survivor benefits; taxes on income, estates, gifts, and property sales; and benefits due federal employees, both civilian and military, Social Security, housing, and food stamps, and immigration purposes to name a few...And now that the military has authorized same sex marriage in the military- same-sex spouses of military personnel are denied the same access to military bases, legal counseling, and housing allowances provided to different-sex spouses...

I'm not an advocate of same sex marriages- but believe that couples should be allowed to enter into same sex civil unions- which guarantees them all the government rights of a married heterosexual couple... If that's the life they want to live so be it- and the government should not discriminate against them if that is their choice....

Like abortion, I say let the states decide.
 

Mike

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
I'm not sure- but without yet hearing the Justices arguments I have a feeling they may let the Proposition 8 stand- since it is a voters initiative and states rights issue too...

But I think the DOMA may fall because it discriminates against over a thousand programs that economically/socially impact same sex couples that have civil unions/marriages in the states that allow them...Ex.- veteran's benefits, including pensions and survivor benefits; taxes on income, estates, gifts, and property sales; and benefits due federal employees, both civilian and military, Social Security, housing, and food stamps, and immigration purposes to name a few...And now that the military has authorized same sex marriage in the military- same-sex spouses of military personnel are denied the same access to military bases, legal counseling, and housing allowances provided to different-sex spouses...

I'm not an advocate of same sex marriages- but believe that couples should be allowed to enter into same sex civil unions- which guarantees them all the government rights of a married heterosexual couple... If that's the life they want to live so be it- and the government should not discriminate against them if that is their choice....

On one hand you think that the "State's" should decide who can, and who cannot marry.

When you look at the chart I provided above, it's obvious that more state's do not recognize gay marriage than ones that do..

On the other hand you think that gov't shouldn't discriminate? Just "who" is the government OT? That's us. The people.

You can't be a "State's Rights Defender" then turn around and say they can't choose their own "Rights" and the definitions thereof.

This is all about Federal Power and the withering away of States Rights.
 

Mike

Well-known member
Whitewing said:
Oldtimer said:
I'm not sure- but without yet hearing the Justices arguments I have a feeling they may let the Proposition 8 stand- since it is a voters initiative and states rights issue too...

But I think the DOMA may fall because it discriminates against over a thousand programs that economically/socially impact same sex couples that have civil unions/marriages in the states that allow them...Ex.- veteran's benefits, including pensions and survivor benefits; taxes on income, estates, gifts, and property sales; and benefits due federal employees, both civilian and military, Social Security, housing, and food stamps, and immigration purposes to name a few...And now that the military has authorized same sex marriage in the military- same-sex spouses of military personnel are denied the same access to military bases, legal counseling, and housing allowances provided to different-sex spouses...

I'm not an advocate of same sex marriages- but believe that couples should be allowed to enter into same sex civil unions- which guarantees them all the government rights of a married heterosexual couple... If that's the life they want to live so be it- and the government should not discriminate against them if that is their choice....

Like abortion, I say let the states decide.

And that's the way previous Federal Taxes, etc. have been handled. Each according to the State in which the case was based.

The Tenth Amendment states the Constitution's principle of federalism by providing that powers not granted to the federal government by the Constitution, nor prohibited to the States, are reserved to the States or the people.
 

Whitewing

Well-known member
Mike said:
Whitewing said:
Oldtimer said:
I'm not sure- but without yet hearing the Justices arguments I have a feeling they may let the Proposition 8 stand- since it is a voters initiative and states rights issue too...

But I think the DOMA may fall because it discriminates against over a thousand programs that economically/socially impact same sex couples that have civil unions/marriages in the states that allow them...Ex.- veteran's benefits, including pensions and survivor benefits; taxes on income, estates, gifts, and property sales; and benefits due federal employees, both civilian and military, Social Security, housing, and food stamps, and immigration purposes to name a few...And now that the military has authorized same sex marriage in the military- same-sex spouses of military personnel are denied the same access to military bases, legal counseling, and housing allowances provided to different-sex spouses...

I'm not an advocate of same sex marriages- but believe that couples should be allowed to enter into same sex civil unions- which guarantees them all the government rights of a married heterosexual couple... If that's the life they want to live so be it- and the government should not discriminate against them if that is their choice....

Like abortion, I say let the states decide.

And that's the way previous Federal Taxes, etc. have been handled. Each according to the State in which the case was based.

The Tenth Amendment states the Constitution's principle of federalism by providing that powers not granted to the federal government by the Constitution, nor prohibited to the States, are reserved to the States or the people.

You're just an anarchist who fears true government leadership.
 

loomixguy

Well-known member
Whitewing said:
Mike said:
Whitewing said:
Like abortion, I say let the states decide.

And that's the way previous Federal Taxes, etc. have been handled. Each according to the State in which the case was based.

The Tenth Amendment states the Constitution's principle of federalism by providing that powers not granted to the federal government by the Constitution, nor prohibited to the States, are reserved to the States or the people.

You're just an anarchist who fears true government leadership.

Would true government leadership be classified as "Hope", or "Change"? :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Mike said:
Oldtimer said:
I'm not sure- but without yet hearing the Justices arguments I have a feeling they may let the Proposition 8 stand- since it is a voters initiative and states rights issue too...

But I think the DOMA may fall because it discriminates against over a thousand programs that economically/socially impact same sex couples that have civil unions/marriages in the states that allow them...Ex.- veteran's benefits, including pensions and survivor benefits; taxes on income, estates, gifts, and property sales; and benefits due federal employees, both civilian and military, Social Security, housing, and food stamps, and immigration purposes to name a few...And now that the military has authorized same sex marriage in the military- same-sex spouses of military personnel are denied the same access to military bases, legal counseling, and housing allowances provided to different-sex spouses...

I'm not an advocate of same sex marriages- but believe that couples should be allowed to enter into same sex civil unions- which guarantees them all the government rights of a married heterosexual couple... If that's the life they want to live so be it- and the government should not discriminate against them if that is their choice....

On one hand you think that the "State's" should decide who can, and who cannot marry.

When you look at the chart I provided above, it's obvious that more state's do not recognize gay marriage than ones that do..

On the other hand you think that gov't shouldn't discriminate? Just "who" is the government OT? That's us. The people.

You can't be a "State's Rights Defender" then turn around and say they can't choose their own "Rights" and the definitions thereof.

This is all about Federal Power and the withering away of States Rights.

Millennial Support For Gay Marriage Hits All-Time High: Pew Research Center


The Huffington Post | By Tyler Kingkade Posted: 03/21/2013 3:50 pm EDT |



Approval of same-sex marriage among young adults is at an all-time high, according to new findings from the Pew Research Center.

The poll found 70 percent of adults born in 1981 or later, often referred to as millennials, support marriage equality. That's up from 64 percent in 2012, and an increase from 51 percent since the inauguration of President Barack Obama in 2009. Slightly more, 74 percent of millennials, say they believe gay and lesbian individuals should be accepted by society, while 22 percent disagree.
-------------------------------------

Pew's findings are consistent with another poll out this week from ABC News and the Washington Post, which found a record high of 81 percent of people ages 18 to 29 support gay marriage, while 58 percent of all adults supported LGBT marriage rights.

Pew points out millennials are part of the reason the overall number keeps climbing. Over the past 10 years, the millennial proportion of the U.S. adult population increased from 9 percent to 27 percent.

Gay marriage support hits new high in Post-ABC poll

Posted by Jon Cohen on March 18, 2013 at 2:00 pm


More Public support for gay marriage has hit a new high as Americans increasingly see homosexuality not as a choice but as a way some people are, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News poll.

The poll shows that 58 percent of Americans now believe it should be legal for gay and lesbian couples to get married; 36 percent say it should be illegal. Public attitudes toward gay marriage are a mirror image of what they were a decade ago: in 2003, 37 percent favored gay nuptials, and 55 percent opposed them
.


But as younger more tolerant "the people" come into voting age the number of folks supporting it keeps increasing and as a whole across the country the latest polls show "the countries population as a whole" support not only giving same sex marriages their rights- but agree with same sex marriage.... Those are "the people" that make up the Federal government...

This discrimination of rights and the changing world (votes) is now being recognized by many leaders of both political parties (especially numerous young Repub/conservatives)- as well as some of the countries business and corporate leaders...
 

TexasBred

Well-known member
http://www.pewforum.org/Gay-Marriage-and-Homosexuality/Religious-Beliefs-Underpin-Opposition-to-Homosexuality.aspx


Many many more details here.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
TexasBred said:
http://www.pewforum.org/Gay-Marriage-and-Homosexuality/Religious-Beliefs-Underpin-Opposition-to-Homosexuality.aspx


Many many more details here.

Texasbred- are you aware your article and numbers are 10 years old :???:
 

Mike

Well-known member
OT wrote:
But as younger more tolerant "the people" come into voting age the number of folks supporting it keeps increasing and as a whole across the country the latest polls show "the countries population as a whole" support not only giving same sex marriages their rights- but agree with same sex marriage.... Those are "the people" that make up the Federal government...

Your numbers don't align with the voters in Ca. that VOTED IT DOWN!!!
 

TexasBred

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
TexasBred said:
http://www.pewforum.org/Gay-Marriage-and-Homosexuality/Religious-Beliefs-Underpin-Opposition-to-Homosexuality.aspx


Many many more details here.

Texasbred- are you aware your article and numbers are 10 years old :???:

A bit more current:

American voters are split down the middle over whether same-sex marriage should be legalized, with the exact same percentage -- 46 percent -- in favor as opposed to it, according to the latest Fox News poll.
There are major differences based on age, political identification, region and religiosity. Voters under the age of 45, for example, are largely in favor of legalizing same-sex marriage (60 percent), while those ages 45 and older largely oppose it (57 percent).
Click for full poll results.
Most Democrats (64 percent) are in favor, while most Republicans are opposed (66 percent). Independents are more likely to favor same-sex marriage, 50 percent to 39 percent.
On the other hand, voters who regularly attend church services oppose gay marriage (65 percent), while over half of those who attend less frequently are in favor (53 percent).
At the end of March, the U.S. Supreme Court will consider two cases concerning same-sex marriage, including one over California’s gay marriage ban.
In recent months, President Obama has made it clear that he personally believes same-sex couples should have the right to marry, and last week the administration filed a brief with the Supreme Court in the California case supporting gay marriage. That puts the administration at odds with the 37 states that have banned same-sex marriage.
The new poll, released Monday, also shows regional differences on the issue. Northeasterners favor gay marriage by a wide 34 percentage-point margin (63-29 percent), while Southerners oppose it by 21 points (57-36 percent). Westerners narrowly favor it (49-42 percent), and Midwesterners narrowly oppose it (48-45 percent).
Meanwhile, a majority of those living in urban areas are in favor of same-sex marriage (52 percent), and a majority of those in rural areas oppose it (55 percent).
Overall, those most likely to favor legalizing gay marriage include those who “never” attend church (79 percent), liberals (72 percent) and voters under age 30 (68 percent).
On the other side, those most opposed include “very” conservatives (79 percent), Tea Partiers (76 percent) and white evangelical Christians (71 percent).
The Fox News poll is based on landline and cell phone interviews with 1,010 randomly chosen registered voters nationwide and was conducted under the joint direction of Anderson Robbins Research (D) and Shaw & Company Research (R) from February 25 to February 27. The full poll has a margin of sampling error of plus or minus three percentage points.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/03/04/fox-news-poll-americans-deeply-divided-over-approval-same-sex-marriage/#ixzz2OaBaygkS
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Mike said:
OT wrote:
But as younger more tolerant "the people" come into voting age the number of folks supporting it keeps increasing and as a whole across the country the latest polls show "the countries population as a whole" support not only giving same sex marriages their rights- but agree with same sex marriage.... Those are "the people" that make up the Federal government...

Your numbers don't align with the voters in Ca. that VOTED IT DOWN!!!

The age gap in registration rates and likelihood of voting persists.
Voter registration in California increases sharply with age, ranging from 54% for adults under age 25 to 86% for adults age 65 and older. In our surveys, the distribution of those we consider likely to vote shows an even larger age disparity: 19% of those under age 25 are likely voters compared to 74% of those age 65 and older. This skews the share of likely voters toward older Californians. Adults age 55 and older make up 29% of the adult population, but constitute 44% of those likely to vote. Conversely, those between 18 and 34 make up 33% of the state’s adult population but represent just 18% of likely voters. The shares of middle-aged Californians (ages 35 to 54) in the population (39%) and among likely voters (38%) are similar.

Polling

With recent big increases in support for legalization of same-sex marriage, the California public is now 61% in favor, 31% opposed according to a February 2013 Field Poll, up from 59% in favor, 34% opposed in February 2012


Apparently the attitude has changed since the election in 2008-- and it appears many of the younger Californians don't vote...
 

Whitewing

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
Apparently the attitude has changed since the election in 2008-- and it appears many of the younger Californians don't vote...

WW does his best Oldtimer imitation:

So what you're saying is that for those Californians who don't vote, we should divine what they believe in and make it law?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Whitewing said:
Oldtimer said:
Apparently the attitude has changed since the election in 2008-- and it appears many of the younger Californians don't vote...

WW does his best Oldtimer imitation:

So what you're saying is that for those Californians who don't vote, we should divine what they believe in and make it law?

Problem is- California is not the entire nation...Anyway there are a whole lot of Repub candidates/politicians out there scrambling to get that under 30 vote... They must think its important- since Obama got the biggest share of it...


President Obama took 60 percent of the youth vote in 2012, compared to Mitt Romney at 36 percent. That’s less than the 66 percent Obama collected against McCain in 2008, but voters aged 18-29 made up a larger portion of the electorate in the last election cycle than ever before.
 

Whitewing

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
Whitewing said:
Oldtimer said:
Apparently the attitude has changed since the election in 2008-- and it appears many of the younger Californians don't vote...

WW does his best Oldtimer imitation:

So what you're saying is that for those Californians who don't vote, we should divine what they believe in and make it law?

Problem is- California is not the entire nation...Anyway there are a whole lot of Repub candidates/politicians out there scrambling to get that under 30 vote... They must think its important- since Obama got the biggest share of it...


President Obama took 60 percent of the youth vote in 2012, compared to Mitt Romney at 36 percent. That’s less than the 66 percent Obama collected against McCain in 2008, but voters aged 18-29 made up a larger portion of the electorate in the last election cycle than ever before.

Yes, I can understand those who sell their souls to get votes. They're a lot like certain people here whose moral outrage and principles change depending on who occupies the White House.

Precious Constitution. :lol:
 

TexasBred

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
President Obama took 60 percent of the youth vote in 2012, compared to Mitt Romney at 36 percent. That’s less than the 66 percent Obama collected against McCain in 2008, but voters aged 18-29 made up a larger portion of the electorate in the last election cycle than ever before.

He77 he got all the folks on foodstamps, free phones, rental assistance, HUD housing, Mexicans and white trash. Does that mean Republicans should try to "outgive him" and win them over??
 

Mike

Well-known member
OT never makes sense in these arguments. If the majority of the states wanted same sex marriage, it would be done. But they don't.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/fullpage/sex-marriage-sex-marriage-status-united-states-state-16715343
 
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