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Say it Ain't So Joe!

aplusmnt

Well-known member
I think Palin killed tonight! I think the questions from the moderator were fair but she moved on to new questions many times after Biden seemed to make a good point and I think Palin would have tore him up if given a rebuttal.

But all in all she was the hands down the big winner tonight! Obama better get back after McCain because he is fighting a losing battle with Palin!
 

Yanuck

Well-known member
I also thought she did very well, and back to what people were first impressed with, I think they need to let her out to be herself. Joe Biden did well too, this debate was much better IMO than the McCain/Obama debate last week.


You betcha Sarah Palin can debate
By ROGER SIMON | 10/2/08 11:52 PM EDT Text Size:


ST. LOUIS — Sarah Palin was supposed to fall off the stage at her vice presidential debate Thursday evening. Instead, she ended up dominating it.

She not only kept Joe Biden on the defensive for much of the debate, she not only repeatedly attacked Barack Obama, but she looked like she was enjoying herself while doing it.

She smiled. She faced the camera. She was warm. She was human. Gosh and golly, she even dropped a bunch of g’s.

“John McCain doesn’t tell one thing to one group and somethin’ else to another,” she said. “Those huge tax breaks aren’t comin’ to those huge multinational corporations.”

She went out of her way to talk in everyday terms, saying things like “I betcha” and “We have a heckuva opportunity to learn” and “darn right we need tax relief.”

Biden was somber, serious and knowledgeable. And he seemed to think that debates were about facts. He had a ton of them.

Criticizing John McCain’s health care plan, Biden said that McCain would tax health care and “then you’re going to have to replace a $12,000 — that’s the average cost of the plan you get through your employer; it costs $12,000 — you’re going to have to pay — replace $12,000 plan, because 20 million of you are going to be dropped. So you’re going to have to place — replace a $12,000 plan with a $5,000 check you’ve just given to the insurance company.”

Got that?

Palin was a lot more direct in her attacks on Obama and a lot more simple. Criticizing Obama for saying he would meet with some foreign leaders who are hostile to the United States, Palin said: “Some of these dictators hate America and what we stand for. They cannot be met with. That is beyond bad judgment. That is dangerous.”

She also said: “An issue like that taken up by a presidential candidate goes beyond naiveté and goes beyond poor judgment.”

Sarah Palin accusing Barack Obama of being naïve? Yep. And she was unabashed about it. And so what if Joe Biden has been in the Senate approximately forever and knows a lot more about a lot more stuff than she does? She doesn’t care.

“You recently said paying taxes is patriotic,” she said to Biden. “In middle-class America, where I have been all my life, that is not considered patriotic.”

True, a lot of her statements were of the fortune cookie variety. “At end of day,” she said, “if we are all working together for the greater good, it is going to be OK.”

But a lot of people like fortune cookies. She said her strength to the ticket was “my connection to the heartland of America, being a mom, having a son going off to war, a mother of a special needs child.” She said there were times she and her husband sat around the kitchen table wondering how they were going to make it without health insurance.

This led Joe Biden to his most emotional — he appeared to choke up — and one of his most effective moments.

“Look, I understand what it is like to be a single parent, when my wife and child died,” Biden said. “I know what is like to raise two kids alone. I know what it is like to sit around that kitchen table.”

Then he said of Americans: “They are looking for help, they are not looking for more of the same.”

It might have been his best line of the evening.

Palin made some flubs. Talking about America’s financial crisis, she said, “It’s a toxic mess, really, on Main Street that’s affecting Wall Street.” Isn’t it the other way around? And she also got the name of a general wrong.

But if people thought she was going to look like a dumb bunny for 90 minutes, they were disappointed. She said what she wanted to say and she was so relaxed she even winked at one point. Really! An actual wink during a national debate when she said she was going to try to get John McCain to change his mind about not drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.

Do people care about such stuff? Should all that down-home talk and body language really count? Joe Biden doesn’t think so.

“Facts matter,” Biden said.

Yeah? In politics? Since when?

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/14234.html
 

aplusmnt

Well-known member
Some are saying it is one of the best performances they have ever saw going back before Reagan's time.

When Tom Brokaw says he bets the Democrats are glad there is no more VP debates.

She has proven herself and should never do any more interviews with the lefty liberal Gotcha anchors! Just talk to the people and lets get on with this thing!

I believe this woman may just be the First woman President of the United States one day!

I betcha somewhere Hillary has thrown a lamp through the screen of her TV :lol:
 

Bullhauler

Well-known member
aplusmnt said:
I think Palin killed tonight! I think the questions from the moderator were fair but she moved on to new questions many times after Biden seemed to make a good point and I think Palin would have tore him up if given a rebuttal.

But all in all she was the hands down the big winner tonight! Obama better get back after McCain because he is fighting a losing battle with Palin!


Why would you care? I thought you weren't gonna vote for McCain anyway since he voted for the bailout.
 

backhoeboogie

Well-known member
Palin had a whine in her voice when she asked the moderator if she could respond. She never has a touch of a whine any other time. She should make a postitive comment instead. Something like, "I would love to respond to that if I may." Other than that, she was excellent in my opinion.

If you taped it and watch it again, take a look at that part. Also note when each one whine a bit and when each one make absolute matter of fact statements. That will tell you a great deal about their sincerity.

When Biden talked about foreign policy, he was absolute with no whine in his voice at all. Note the change in his voice if you watch this again on tape.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
The Vice-Presidential Debate
Sen. Joe Biden and Gov. Sarah Palin faced off in their first and only Vice-Presidential debate last night, each one claiming to be the champion of the middle class. The debate was cordial but pointed, with each of them clearly attacking the other party's positions, but not each other. At the beginning, Palin asked permission to call him "Joe," which he granted. This made her seem folksy. But he didn't take the bait and always referred to her as "governor" to sound respectful and avoid insulting women.

Biden was clearly in command of the material, as one might expect from someone who has been in the Senate 36 years. Palin was shakier, but not as bad as in the interview with Katie Couric. She often avoided answering questions and didn't get any follow-up questions from Ifill as she did from Couric. For example, when Ifill asked her what she'd do about the mortgage crisis, she said: "Let's commit ourselves--just everyday American people, Joe Six-Pack, hockey moms across the nation--I think we need to band together and say, 'Never again.'" She didn't explain how hockey moms could get together to prevent a financial crisis. If you missed the debate or want to see it again, the Washington Post has the full video available.

The bottom line is that Vice-Presidential debates are fun to watch but don't really matter. The greatest line in any Vice-Presidential debate in history was surely Lloyd Bentsen's 1988 reply to Dan Quayle's comparing himself to President Kennedy: "I served with Jack Kennedy. I knew Jack Kennedy. Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine. Senator, you are no Jack Kennedy." But it didn't help. Dukakis/Bentsen were crushed by a Bush/Quayle landslide.

The first polls of the Vice-Presidential debate are already in. A CNN poll run by Opinion Research shows that 51% of the voters think Joe Biden did the best job at the debate and 36% thought Sarah Palin did the best job. As to beating the expectations (which both parties were trying furiously to set as low as possible), both did. Eighty-four percent said Palin did better than expected and 64% said Biden did better than expected. But debating skills and beating artificially low expectations don't really matter. What matters is whether the candidate is qualified to be President should the need arise. On this score, Biden clearly won as 87% said Biden is qualified to be President and only 42% said Palin is.

CBS also did a quickie poll among uncommitted voters. In this one, 46% said Biden won and only 21% said Palin won. In terms of being knowledgeable about the issues, 98% think Biden is and 66% think Palin is. On the key question of whether the candidate could be an effective President, 91% said Biden could be and only 44% said Palin could be, similar to the CNN poll.

CNN ran a focus group in Ohio, where participants could rate what they were hearing in real time. Biden's score zoomed through the roof when he talked about his wife and daughter dying in a traffic accident many years ago. In general, his responses scored well, better than Palin's, especially when she defended McCain. Republican pollster Frank Luntz ran a focus group for Fox and said that Palin did very well. But only three members of his group said they were more likely to vote for McCain as a result of the debate.

With Palin's qualifications for the presidency much in doubt, when the mud begins the fly (e.g., when Republican beging airing ads about Wright, Ayers, and Rezko), the Democrats may try to exploit fears about Palin becoming President by running ads like this one. Nominally, it is only about McCain not releasing his medical records, but the message is pretty clear.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHvJPGnkQxE


McCain Pulling Out of Michigan
Politico reports that McCain is closing down his campaign in Michigan, terminating his TV ads, and moving his staff there to Wisconsin, Ohio, and Florida. If true, this is a major development. Michigan is one of only two Kerry states McCain has any realistic chance of winning (the other being New Hampshire). If Obama wins all the Kerry states, as now seems likely, and wins Iowa and New Mexico, both of which are almost in the bag for him, he needs only one more state to win. That means McCain must win all the swing states: Florida, Virginia, North Carolina, Ohio, Missouri, Colorado, and Nevada. Obama is leading substantially in a number of them. McCain does not have a statistically significant lead in any of them.
http://www.electoral-vote.com/
 

TSR

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
The Vice-Presidential Debate
Sen. Joe Biden and Gov. Sarah Palin faced off in their first and only Vice-Presidential debate last night, each one claiming to be the champion of the middle class. The debate was cordial but pointed, with each of them clearly attacking the other party's positions, but not each other. At the beginning, Palin asked permission to call him "Joe," which he granted. This made her seem folksy. But he didn't take the bait and always referred to her as "governor" to sound respectful and avoid insulting women.

Biden was clearly in command of the material, as one might expect from someone who has been in the Senate 36 years. Palin was shakier, but not as bad as in the interview with Katie Couric. She often avoided answering questions and didn't get any follow-up questions from Ifill as she did from Couric. For example, when Ifill asked her what she'd do about the mortgage crisis, she said: "Let's commit ourselves--just everyday American people, Joe Six-Pack, hockey moms across the nation--I think we need to band together and say, 'Never again.'" She didn't explain how hockey moms could get together to prevent a financial crisis. If you missed the debate or want to see it again, the Washington Post has the full video available.

The bottom line is that Vice-Presidential debates are fun to watch but don't really matter. The greatest line in any Vice-Presidential debate in history was surely Lloyd Bentsen's 1988 reply to Dan Quayle's comparing himself to President Kennedy: "I served with Jack Kennedy. I knew Jack Kennedy. Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine. Senator, you are no Jack Kennedy." But it didn't help. Dukakis/Bentsen were crushed by a Bush/Quayle landslide.

The first polls of the Vice-Presidential debate are already in. A CNN poll run by Opinion Research shows that 51% of the voters think Joe Biden did the best job at the debate and 36% thought Sarah Palin did the best job. As to beating the expectations (which both parties were trying furiously to set as low as possible), both did. Eighty-four percent said Palin did better than expected and 64% said Biden did better than expected. But debating skills and beating artificially low expectations don't really matter. What matters is whether the candidate is qualified to be President should the need arise. On this score, Biden clearly won as 87% said Biden is qualified to be President and only 42% said Palin is.

CBS also did a quickie poll among uncommitted voters. In this one, 46% said Biden won and only 21% said Palin won. In terms of being knowledgeable about the issues, 98% think Biden is and 66% think Palin is. On the key question of whether the candidate could be an effective President, 91% said Biden could be and only 44% said Palin could be, similar to the CNN poll.

CNN ran a focus group in Ohio, where participants could rate what they were hearing in real time. Biden's score zoomed through the roof when he talked about his wife and daughter dying in a traffic accident many years ago. In general, his responses scored well, better than Palin's, especially when she defended McCain. Republican pollster Frank Luntz ran a focus group for Fox and said that Palin did very well. But only three members of his group said they were more likely to vote for McCain as a result of the debate.

With Palin's qualifications for the presidency much in doubt, when the mud begins the fly (e.g., when Republican beging airing ads about Wright, Ayers, and Rezko), the Democrats may try to exploit fears about Palin becoming President by running ads like this one. Nominally, it is only about McCain not releasing his medical records, but the message is pretty clear.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHvJPGnkQxE


McCain Pulling Out of Michigan
Politico reports that McCain is closing down his campaign in Michigan, terminating his TV ads, and moving his staff there to Wisconsin, Ohio, and Florida. If true, this is a major development. Michigan is one of only two Kerry states McCain has any realistic chance of winning (the other being New Hampshire). If Obama wins all the Kerry states, as now seems likely, and wins Iowa and New Mexico, both of which are almost in the bag for him, he needs only one more state to win. That means McCain must win all the swing states: Florida, Virginia, North Carolina, Ohio, Missouri, Colorado, and Nevada. Obama is leading substantially in a number of them. McCain does not have a statistically significant lead in any of them.
http://www.electoral-vote.com/

Palin looked uncomfortable many times and had to refer to her notes to know what to say much too often. And sometimes avoided the question entirely. IMO a fairly close debate but Biden came out on top.
 

don

Well-known member
there were such low expectations of palin that she had no problem doing better than expected or feared. as the debate went on though i thought she showed no depth of knowledge on substantive issues. if last night was job interviews and you're the boss with money on the line you could only hire biden. palin was like a high school grad wanting a high tech job.
 

Mike

Well-known member
My take on the debate:

1- Biden has eyes like a snake. Plus, he told an unumerable amount of lies.

2- Neither of the VP candidates has purple lips.

__________________________________________________
Palin let one big opportunity get slip away. When Biden claimed "lack of regulation" got us to this economic point, Palin could have truthfully said the economy woes are actually due to "over regulation".
 

fff

Well-known member
Mike said:
My take on the debate:

1- Biden has eyes like a snake. Plus, he told an unumerable amount of lies.

2- Neither of the VP candidates has purple lips.

__________________________________________________
Palin let one big opportunity get slip away. When Biden claimed "lack of regulation" got us to this economic point, Palin could have truthfully said the economy woes are actually due to "over regulation".

Someone did count the lies. Palin told 18; Biden told 6. Heard it on TV, no link yet.
 

fff

Well-known member
Joe Biden was at in top form. He hit all the right notes, he knew his stuff, he went after McCain. He was in control, passionate, earnest, well spoken, and polite to Governor Palin. He won the debate hands down. Every real poll of voters and pundits say Biden won the debate.

Palin did not answer many of the questions. The format, agreed to by both parties, didn't allow for follow up questions. If it had, she'd have been toast because she obviously doesn't know squat. She turned the questions into campaign talking points. But she did what she needed to do and didn't fall on her face.

Nothing new was learned; nothing added. Polls have shown that people think Biden is capable of being president and Palin isn't. Those same polls after the debate showed even better numbers for Biden and worse numbers for Palin.
 

Mike

Well-known member
fff said:
Mike said:
My take on the debate:

1- Biden has eyes like a snake. Plus, he told an unumerable amount of lies.

2- Neither of the VP candidates has purple lips.

__________________________________________________
Palin let one big opportunity get slip away. When Biden claimed "lack of regulation" got us to this economic point, Palin could have truthfully said the economy woes are actually due to "over regulation".

Someone did count the lies. Palin told 18; Biden told 6. Heard it on TV, no link yet.

Biden told AT LEAST 14 Lies:

Joe Biden's 14 Lies

1. TAX VOTE: Biden said McCain voted “the exact same way” as Obama to increase taxes on Americans earning just $42,000, but McCain DID NOT VOTE THAT WAY.

2. AHMEDINIJAD MEETING: Joe Biden lied when he said that Barack Obama never said that he would sit down unconditionally with Mahmoud Ahmedinijad of Iran. Barack Obama did say specifically, and Joe Biden attacked him for it.

3. OFFSHORE OIL DRILLING: Biden said, “Drill we must.” But Biden has opposed offshore drilling and even compared offshore drilling to “raping” the Outer Continental Shelf.”

4. TROOP FUNDING: Joe Biden lied when he indicated that John McCain and Barack Obama voted the same way against funding the troops in the field. John McCain opposed a bill that included a timeline, that the President of the United States had already said he would veto regardless of it’s passage.

5. OPPOSING CLEAN COAL: Biden says he’s always been for clean coal, but he just told a voter that he is against clean coal and any new coal plants in America and has a record of voting against clean coal and coal in the U.S. Senate.

6. ALERNATIVE ENERGY VOTES: According to FactCheck.org, Biden is exaggerating and overstating John McCain’s record voting for alternative energy when he says he voted against it 23 times.

7. HEALTH INSURANCE: Biden falsely said McCain will raise taxes on people's health insurance coverage -- they get a tax credit to offset any tax hike. Independent fact checkers have confirmed this attack is false

8. OIL TAXES: Biden falsely said Palin supported a windfall profits tax in Alaska -- she reformed the state tax and revenue system, it's not a windfall profits tax.

9. AFGHANISTAN / GEN. MCKIERNAN COMMENTS: Biden said that top military commander in Iraq said the principles of the surge could not be applied to Afghanistan, but the commander of NATO's International Security Assistance Force Gen. David D. McKiernan said that there were principles of the surge strategy, including working with tribes, that could be applied in Afghanistan.

10. REGULATION: Biden falsely said McCain weakened regulation -- he actually called for more regulation on Fannie and Freddie.

11. IRAQ: When Joe Biden lied when he said that John McCain was “dead wrong on Iraq”, because Joe Biden shared the same vote to authorize the war and differed on the surge strategy where they John McCain has been proven right.

12. TAX INCREASES: Biden said Americans earning less than $250,000 wouldn’t see higher taxes, but the Obama-Biden tax plan would raise taxes on individuals making $200,000 or more.

13. BAILOUT: Biden said the economic rescue legislation matches the four principles that Obama laid out, but in reality it doesn’t meet two of the four principles that Obama outlined on Sept. 19, which were that it include an emergency economic stimulus package, and that it be part of “part of a globally coordinated effort with our partners in the G-20.”

14. REAGAN TAX RATES: Biden is wrong in saying that under Obama, Americans won't pay any more in taxes then they did under Reagan.
 

backhoeboogie

Well-known member
don said:
if last night was job interviews and you're the boss with money on the line you could only hire biden.

Never. Listen to the tone changes. Do you interview? I do. I also hire equipment vendors. Voice tone is everything. Eyes are another thing. It is not about debate. It is about character.

If you want him you hire him. I don't have an opening for either at the moment.
 

aplusmnt

Well-known member
fff said:
Joe Biden was at in top form. He hit all the right notes, he knew his stuff, he went after McCain. He was in control, passionate, earnest, well spoken, and polite to Governor Palin. He won the debate hands down. Every real poll of voters and pundits say Biden won the debate.

Palin did not answer many of the questions. The format, agreed to by both parties, didn't allow for follow up questions. If it had, she'd have been toast because she obviously doesn't know squat. She turned the questions into campaign talking points. But she did what she needed to do and didn't fall on her face.

Nothing new was learned; nothing added. Polls have shown that people think Biden is capable of being president and Palin isn't. Those same polls after the debate showed even better numbers for Biden and worse numbers for Palin.

Surprise, Surprise! You do not have a neutral bone in your body you eat up spin so much I bet you have a knot on top of your head to wrap the rope around it and spin you like a top!

Biden did not do a bad job at answering his questions, he was a typical 35 year experienced politician. I am sure his camp is happy he did not put his foot in his mouth and start talking about being shot at or helicopters being forced down because of snow, or who was president during the depression. He did as good as he could do!

But palin won this debate, besides a few points like Backhoe pointed out on her being more assertive in regards the process. If I was her I would have insisted on rebuttal on all the times the moderator cut that topic off and went to new question right after Biden made what seemed like a good bias point!

The Democrats needed Palin to fail and she did way more than fail, she showed she was smart and not some Bimbo as your far left loonies have tried to paint her. Many people believe she not only won but won hands down! I guarantee you Hillary is not happy after last night, because there is a new woman in Washington D.C. and Hillary is old news!
 

fff

Well-known member
aplusmnt said:
fff said:
Joe Biden was at in top form. He hit all the right notes, he knew his stuff, he went after McCain. He was in control, passionate, earnest, well spoken, and polite to Governor Palin. He won the debate hands down. Every real poll of voters and pundits say Biden won the debate.

Palin did not answer many of the questions. The format, agreed to by both parties, didn't allow for follow up questions. If it had, she'd have been toast because she obviously doesn't know squat. She turned the questions into campaign talking points. But she did what she needed to do and didn't fall on her face.

Nothing new was learned; nothing added. Polls have shown that people think Biden is capable of being president and Palin isn't. Those same polls after the debate showed even better numbers for Biden and worse numbers for Palin.

Surprise, Surprise! You do not have a neutral bone in your body you eat up spin so much I bet you have a knot on top of your head to wrap the rope around it and spin you like a top!

Biden did not do a bad job at answering his questions, he was a typical 35 year experienced politician. I am sure his camp is happy he did not put his foot in his mouth and start talking about being shot at or helicopters being forced down because of snow, or who was president during the depression. He did as good as he could do!

But palin won this debate, besides a few points like Backhoe pointed out on her being more assertive in regards the process. If I was her I would have insisted on rebuttal on all the times the moderator cut that topic off and went to new question right after Biden made what seemed like a good bias point!

The Democrats needed Palin to fail and she did way more than fail, she showed she was smart and not some Bimbo as your far left loonies have tried to paint her. Many people believe she not only won but won hands down! I guarantee you Hillary is not happy after last night, because there is a new woman in Washington D.C. and Hillary is old news!

Keep telling yourself that, A+, but every real poll out there says that Biden won the debate. I don't say she's a bimbo; I say she doesn't have the experience to become president of the US on January 21st and if the McCain/Palin ticket is elected, that might happen. No, Dems didn't need her to fail. They needed Biden to succeed and he did in a big way. Damn, he gave an impressive performance! Calm, coherent, decisive, informed, polite, good delivery, passionate about the middle class..... What people saw in Palin gave a few die hards an excuse to vote for McCain, but most people saw she has no grasp of important matters of state. She didn't even get the name of the US General running our war in Afghanistan right! Much less the truth about what he says about a "surge" in Afghanistan!

"The word I don't use for Afghanistan is 'surge,' " McKiernan stressed, saying that what is required is a "sustained commitment" to a counterinsurgency effort that could last many years and would ultimately require a political, not military, solution.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/01/AR2008100100789.html?hpid=sec-world
 

Mike

Well-known member
Believe it or not, a quote from the NEW YORK TIMES on the debate:

Still, this debate was about Sarah Palin. She held up her end of an energetic debate that gave voters a direct look at two competing philosophies. She established debating parity with Joe Biden. And in a country that is furious with Washington, she presented herself as a radical alternative.
I would have never believed this liberal rag would have been this complimentary? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
 

aplusmnt

Well-known member
Mike said:
Believe it or not, a quote from the NEW YORK TIMES on the debate:

Still, this debate was about Sarah Palin. She held up her end of an energetic debate that gave voters a direct look at two competing philosophies. She established debating parity with Joe Biden. And in a country that is furious with Washington, she presented herself as a radical alternative.
I would have never believed this liberal rag would have been this complimentary? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I watched the debate on NBC (I try to get other side unlike fff) and afterwards Tom Brokaw said he is sure the Democrats are glad there is no more debates for the VP's. That is a pretty strong statement off the cuff minutes after it was over!
 

TexasBred

Well-known member
fff said:
Joe Biden was at in top form. He hit all the right notes, he knew his stuff, he went after McCain. He was in control, passionate, earnest, well spoken, and polite to Governor Palin. He won the debate hands down. Every real poll of voters and pundits say Biden won the debate.

Palin did not answer many of the questions. The format, agreed to by both parties, didn't allow for follow up questions. If it had, she'd have been toast because she obviously doesn't know squat. She turned the questions into campaign talking points. But she did what she needed to do and didn't fall on her face.

Nothing new was learned; nothing added. Polls have shown that people think Biden is capable of being president and Palin isn't. Those same polls after the debate showed even better numbers for Biden and worse numbers for Palin.

Just depends on which polls you want to quote:
Instant polls taken at the end of the event by television channels suggested that despite Mrs Palin managing a more measured performance than many had anticipated, voters were more impressed with Mr Biden.

A poll by CNN and Opinion Research found 51 per cent thought Mr Biden had performed best, with Mrs Palin taking 36 per cent of respondents.

A survey of uncommitted voters for CBS found the split even more pronounced, with Mr Biden on 46, Mrs Palin on 21 and a relatively high proportion stating that neither had impressed or that they could not decide.

When the uncommitted voters were pressed, 18 per cent said they would vote for Barack Obama and Mr Biden following the debate, with only 10 per cent ready to line up for John McCain and Sarah Palin.

Another instant poll done by Fox News, which did not allow for such fence-sitting, had the divide between the two candidates at 61 per cent for Mr Biden and 39 per cent for Mrs Palin.

However a focus group of independent voters gathered by the pollster Frank Luntz, whose analyses on BBC Newsnight have proved influential in British politics in recent years, called the debate in favour of Mrs Palin.

Among the group, half of whom voted for the Democrat John Kerry in 2004, an overwhelmingly majority raised their hands to signal Mrs Palin had won the debate when asked.

While about a dozen said that Mrs Palin had changed their minds and that they would now support Mr McCain, only one person in the group said he had changed his mind in support of Mr Obama.

Other websites ran less scientific measures of voter reaction. A poll by 3,887 readers of Forbes.com found that 73 per cent believed the debate had been won by Mr Obama, with just 23 per cent plumping for Mrs Palin.

However, a similarly rough survey of almost 300,000 readers of the Drudge Report website made the split 69 per cent to 29 per cent in favour of the Republican candidate.
 
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