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Seems now it was Russian snipers...

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
...but I'm sure it's just a conspiracy theory and Russian propaganda.

Steve, can you debunk this one for us please. You seem to have a knack for it.


KIEV, Ukraine (AP) — One of the biggest mysteries hanging over the protest mayhem that drove Ukraine's president from power: Who was behind the snipers who sowed death and terror in Kiev?

That riddle has become the latest flashpoint of feuding over Ukraine — with the nation's fledgling government and the Kremlin giving starkly different interpretations of events that could either undermine or bolster the legitimacy of the new rulers.

Ukrainian authorities are investigating the Feb. 18-20 bloodbath, and they have shifted their focus from ousted President Viktor Yanukovych's government to Vladimir Putin's Russia — pursuing the theory that the Kremlin was intent on sowing mayhem as a pretext for military incursion. Russia suggests that the snipers were organized by opposition leaders trying to whip up local and international outrage against the government.

The government's new health minister — a doctor who helped oversee medical treatment for casualties during the protests — told The Associated Press that the similarity of bullet wounds suffered by opposition victims and police indicates the shooters were trying to stoke tensions on both sides and spark even greater violence, with the goal of toppling Yanukovych.

"I think it wasn't just a part of the old regime that (plotted the provocation), but it was also the work of Russian special forces who served and maintained the ideology of the (old) regime," Health Minister Oleh Musiy said.


Putin has pushed the idea that the sniper shootings were ordered by opposition leaders, while Kremlin officials have pointed to a recording of a leaked phone call between Estonia's foreign minister and the European Union's foreign policy chief as evidence to back up that version.

This much is known: Snipers firing powerful rifles from rooftops and windows shot scores of people in the heart of Kiev. Some victims were opposition protesters, but many were civilian bystanders clearly not involved in the clashes. Among the dead were medics, as well as police officers. A majority of the more than 100 people who died in the violence were shot by snipers; hundreds were also injured by the gunfire and other street fighting.

On Tuesday, Interior Minister Arsen Avakov signaled that investigators may be turning their attention away from Ukrainian responsibility.

"I can say only one thing: the key factor in this uprising, that spilled blood in Kiev and that turned the country upside down and shocked it, was a third force," Avakov was quoted as saying by Interfax. "And this force was not Ukrainian."

The next day, Prosecutor General Oleh Makhntisky said officials have found sniper bullet casings on the National Bank building a few hundred yards up the hill from Maidan, the square that became the center and the symbol of the anti-government protests. He said investigators have confirmed snipers also fired from the Hotel Ukraine, directly on the square, and the House of Chimeras, an official residence next to the presidential administration building.

Deputy Interior Minister Mykola Velichkovych told AP that commanders of sniper units overseen by the Berkut police force and other Interior Ministry subdivisions have denied to investigators that they had given orders to shoot anyone.

Musiy, who spent more than two months organizing medical units on Maidan, said that on Feb. 20 roughly 40 civilians and protesters were brought with fatal bullet wounds to the makeshift hospital set up near the square. But he said medics also treated three police officers whose wounds were identical.

Forensic evidence, in particular the similarity of the bullet wounds, led him and others to conclude that snipers were targeting both sides of the standoff at Maidan — and that the shootings were intended to generate a wave of revulsion so strong that it would topple Yanukovych and also justify a Russian invasion.

Russia has used the uncertainty surrounding the bloodshed to discredit Ukraine's current government. During a news conference Tuesday, Putin addressed the issue in response to a reporter's question, suggesting that the snipers in fact "may have been provocateurs from opposition parties."

That theory gained currency a day later when a recording of a Feb. 26 private phone call between Estonian Foreign Minister Urmas Paet and European Union foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton was leaked and broadcast by the Russian government-controlled TV network, Russia Today. In the call, Paet said he had heard from protesters during a visit to Kiev that opponents of Yanukovych were behind the sniper attacks.

Paet said another physician who treated victims, Dr. Olha Bogomolets, told him that both police and protesters were killed by the same bullets — and "there is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind snipers it was not Yanukovych, but it was somebody from the new (government) coalition."

On Wednesday Paet confirmed the recording was authentic, and told reporters in Tallinn that he was merely repeating what Bogomolets had told him. He said he had no way of verifying the claims, though he called Bogomolets "clearly a person with authority."

Bogomolets couldn't be immediately reached by the AP for comment. She did not answer repeated calls to her cellphone or respond to text messages.

In an interview earlier this week with a correspondent from British newspaper The Telegraph, Bogomolets said she didn't know if police and protesters were killed by the same bullets, and called for a thorough investigation.

"No one who just sees the wounds when treating the victims can make a determination about the type of weapons," she was quoted as saying. "I hope international experts and Ukrainian investigators will make a determination of what type of weapons, who was involved in the killings and how it was done. I have no data to prove anything."

On Thursday, Russia's U.N. envoy said he discussed the leaked phone call during a closed-door meeting of the U.N. Security Council.

If the call represents the truth, Ambassador Vitaly Churkin told reporters, "it is hard to imagine how such a parliament ... can be regarded as a legitimate parliament that can pass legitimate decisions on the future of Ukraine."

A former top security official with Ukraine's main security agency, the SBU, waded into the confusion, in an interview published Thursday with the respected newspaper Dzerkalo Tizhnya. Hennady Moskal, who was deputy head of the agency, told the newspaper that snipers from the Interior Ministry and SBU were responsible for the shootings, not foreign agents.

"In addition to this, snipers received orders to shoot not only protesters, but also police forces. This was all done in order to escalate the conflict, in order to justify the police operation to clear Maidan," he was quoted as saying.

One of the victims of the snipers was Alexander Tonskikh, 57. He told AP that at around 10 a.m. on Feb. 20, he and dozens of opposition fighters moved south out of the main battleground on Maidan.

Riot police withdrew suddenly, he said, and an instant later snipers began firing from at least two different directions, from what seemed to be the rooftops of government buildings, between 200 and 300 yards away.

He said dozens of people were "mown down like grass" as he and others crouched behind a waist-high stone wall, holding wooden clubs and metal riot shields.

At least 10 people, he said, were killed instantly, and many others wounded. The bodies piled up on top of each other like fallen tree branches.

Shooting then began from a third direction, he said. As he crouched with his back to a tree, he was hit by a bullet that entered his right arm, went through his right side, punctured his lung and lodged just below his heart.

He then lost consciousness.

___

AP writers Edith Lederer at the United Nations, and Jari Tanner in Tallinn, Estonia, contributed to this report.
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
So does that mean the impeachment wasn't legit...

Ukrainian authorities are investigating the Feb. 18-20 bloodbath, and they have shifted their focus from ousted President Viktor Yanukovych's government to Vladimir Putin's Russia
 

Steve

Well-known member
hypocritexposer said:
...but I'm sure it's just a conspiracy theory and Russian propaganda.

Steve, can you debunk this one for us please. You seem to have a knack for it.

for the sake of TRUTH

I will answer. but as far as rebuttal ect,, , I will not be drawn back into this again...




most of this was already de-bunked or is irrelevant
http://ranchers.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=69251


so to not go back over that "argument" again I am going to eliminate that portion of the text
if you feel you need to debate that portion again then do so without me.




KIEV, Ukraine (AP) — One of the biggest mysteries hanging over the protest mayhem that drove Ukraine's president from power: Who was behind the snipers who sowed death and terror in Kiev?

all we have are alot of conflicting statements.. so so yes it is a mystery
the sniper shootings took place in a protest/riot. in mass confusion getting accurate eyewitness accounts let alone tracking them down
takes time and a careful investigation...



That riddle has become the latest flashpoint of feuding over Ukraine — with the nation's fledgling government and the Kremlin giving starkly different interpretations of events that could either undermine or bolster the legitimacy of the new rulers.

they have no facts and little access to credible evidence at this point.


Ukrainian authorities are investigating the Feb. 18-20 bloodbath, and they have shifted their focus from ousted President Viktor Yanukovych's government to Vladimir Putin's Russia — pursuing the theory that the Kremlin was intent on sowing mayhem as a pretext for military incursion. Russia suggests that the snipers were organized by opposition leaders trying to whip up local and international outrage against the government.

still no facts no evidence,.. just accusations.

so far you could not prove or disprove either sides accusation.


The government's new health minister — a doctor who helped oversee medical treatment for casualties during the protests — told The Associated Press that the similarity of bullet wounds suffered by opposition victims and police indicates the shooters were trying to stoke tensions on both sides and spark even greater violence, with the goal of toppling Yanukovych.

sniper rifles, in regions and states come in similar caliber. snipers are often trained by the same manual , Ukrainians would have been trained by the Russians, and would have trained new snipers in a similar if not same method. so no proof.

ok.. unless they could be traced back to a source.. them being the same doesn't prove anything.. more then likely most of the rifles in the Ukraine use the same type of ammunition. 7.62×39mm or 12.7×55mm ect..

in other words.. a different caliber would show more evidence then all being the same caliber.

and like the assault gun description we get from liberals.. to them all the rifles were sniper rifles..

so this is not proof..
http://ranchers.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=69251


"I think it wasn't just a part of the old regime that (plotted the provocation), but it was also the work of Russian special forces who served and maintained the ideology of the (old) regime," Health Minister Oleh Musiy said.[/b]

he is a doctor, of " Anesthesiology and Critical Care Medicine" , an ICU nurse and an activist.
and hold several prestigious positions http://dovidka.com.ua/user/?code=479306

but so far he has no proof or evidence to back up his accusation.



This much is known: Snipers firing powerful rifles from rooftops and windows shot scores of people in the heart of Kiev. Some victims were opposition protesters, but many were civilian bystanders clearly not involved in the clashes. Among the dead were medics, as well as police officers. A majority of the more than 100 people who died in the violence were shot by snipers; hundreds were also injured by the gunfire and other street fighting.
this has not been proven in detail .. it is a strong assumption,. but it is the AP author's opinion based on his investigation from reports and witnesses. some of the details will change but the statement is more then likely correct in it's conclusion.
(in other words.. we also already knew this much.)

but so far.. no proof.




On Tuesday, Interior Minister Arsen Avakov signaled that investigators may be turning their attention away from Ukrainian responsibility.

"I can say only one thing: the key factor in this uprising, that spilled blood in Kiev and that turned the country upside down and shocked it, was a third force," Avakov was quoted as saying by Interfax. "And this force was not Ukrainian."

Arsen Avakov, is an engineer, investor, politician , former civil servant,.. who was barred from civil service due to an ethics violations.

:roll:
no proof.



The next day, Prosecutor General Oleh Makhntisky said officials have found sniper bullet casings on the National Bank building a few hundred yards up the hill from Maidan, the square that became the center and the symbol of the anti-government protests. He said investigators have confirmed snipers also fired from the Hotel Ukraine, directly on the square, and the House of Chimeras, an official residence next to the presidential administration building.

if you do a search "sniper hotel ukraine" and look at images. you will find several pictures of 'snipers" leading to journalist accounts.
all sources appear to quote the same AP article.

those photos along with bullet casings indicates actual evidence supporting what he said but it does not tie in or prove the accusation.

and other then this article there does not appear to be much information on " Prosecutor General Oleh Makhntisky"

so he could be an imposter like the guy claiming he is the Mayor of Sevastopol ,... who knows?

no proof to back up accusation.


Deputy Interior Minister Mykola Velichkovych told AP that commanders of sniper units overseen by the Berkut police force and other Interior Ministry subdivisions have denied to investigators that they had given orders to shoot anyone.

at this point they may be facing extensive murder charges
so I wouldn't take a denial as proof.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_killed_during_Euromaidan

and other then this article there does not appear to be much information on "Deputy Interior Minister Mykola Velichkovych"

so he could be an imposter like the guy claiming he is the Mayor of Sevastopol ,... who knows?

no proof

Musiy, who spent more than two months organizing medical units on Maidan, said that on Feb. 20 roughly 40 civilians and protesters were brought with fatal bullet wounds to the makeshift hospital set up near the square. But he said medics also treated three police officers whose wounds were identical.

Forensic evidence, in particular the similarity of the bullet wounds, led him and others to conclude that snipers were targeting both sides of the standoff at Maidan

he is a doctor, of " Anesthesiology and Critical Care Medicine" , an ICU nurse and an activist.
and hold several prestigious positions http://dovidka.com.ua/user/?code=479306

the wound is evidence. but both sides could have had snipers.
if you google "Ukraine sniper" or "Kiev Sniper" you can find pictures with links to stories about actual snipers. (people with guns)

but if this was opposition, or Russian sponsored ,.. they wouldn't tell the journalist that.
so until actual people start getting arrested and convicted. no one know is it was one group, two or three with what as told to us in the accounts.

a witness account from another doctor that was there as well
"No one who just sees the wounds when treating the victims can make a determination about the type of weapons," she was quoted as saying. "I hope international experts and Ukrainian investigators will make a determination of what type of weapons, who was involved in the killings and how it was done. I have no data to prove anything."

at this point there is no proof..


— and that the shootings were intended to generate a wave of revulsion so strong that it would topple Yanukovych and also justify a Russian invasion.

again that is an opinion. it could have been a false signal, I doubt it..

no proof.



Here is where it gets interesting.
A former top security official with Ukraine's main security agency, the SBU, waded into the confusion, in an interview published Thursday with the respected newspaper Dzerkalo Tizhnya. Hennady Moskal, who was deputy head of the agency, told the newspaper that snipers from the Interior Ministry and SBU were responsible for the shootings, not foreign agents.

a former policeman who worked his way up through the ranks and politician ,... but so far,.. he is the first with some investigative experience that could shed light on the subject.
from 1975 to 2001 he worked for the militsiya or police,

but as a sole source. he is recounting a witness testimony.
witness testimony is proof..

and we do know that a former police do not tend to implicate their own often without proof. but we do not live in Eastern Europe.

added with he is actually implicating the Ukraine and not Russia..means he may have something or missed the party briefing.

alone it enough to say what he said is true. ,.. I would wait for more to come out.
no proof. yet.. and would actually dispel both accusations.. this one and the other..


"In addition to this, snipers received orders to shoot not only protesters, but also police forces. This was all done in order to escalate the conflict, in order to justify the police operation to clear Maidan," he was quoted as saying.

the last article CP claimed the operation was done by the opposition to invoke outrage,
this article had claimed it was done by Russia to "sowing mayhem as a pretext for military incursion."
and now we have a third theory

I couldn't prove it or disprove it.


One of the victims of the snipers was Alexander Tonskikh, 57. He told AP that at around 10 a.m. on Feb. 20, he and dozens of opposition fighters moved south out of the main battleground on Maidan.

Riot police withdrew suddenly, he said, and an instant later snipers began firing from at least two different directions, from what seemed to be the rooftops of government buildings, between 200 and 300 yards away.

He said dozens of people were "mown down like grass" as he and others crouched behind a waist-high stone wall, holding wooden clubs and metal riot shields.

At least 10 people, he said, were killed instantly, and many others wounded. The bodies piled up on top of each other like fallen tree branches.

Shooting then began from a third direction, he said. As he crouched with his back to a tree, he was hit by a bullet that entered his right arm, went through his right side, punctured his lung and lodged just below his heart.

He then lost consciousness.
his description backs up the third theory.
and what the president was ousted for.

but not this one.. in fact it would make the allegation look even flimsier the it already is


AP writers Edith Lederer at the United Nations, and Jari Tanner in Tallinn, Estonia, contributed to this report.
http://www.cencom.org/ecom-prodshow/edith_lederer.html

she has impeccable credentials and presented it objectively.
I did not "impeach her article" but it like the others is just a theory based on accusations without proof.



my opinion.. to many people involved in the Ukraine have to much to lose right now to be objective.

they have asked the International court to step in and investigate..

http://www.scribd.com/doc/210919059/Kiev-Sniper-Case-Communication-to-International-Court-about-Kiev-Sniper-case


which is probably for the best..

is it a conspiracy theory. yes..
A conspiracy theory is an explanatory proposition that accuses two or more persons, a group, or an organization of having caused or covered up, through secret planning and deliberate action

is it Russian propaganda.
you would have to have them doing a false flag to cover up a false flag
(which in itself is another conspiracy theory)
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
Thanks for your analysis Steve...

A conspiracy theory is an explanatory proposition that accuses two or more persons, a group, or an organization of having caused or covered up, through secret planning and deliberate action
 
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