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Mike

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Faster horses said:
Question: If you had bought a bull and then found out his ribeye was only 10.6 on an ultrasound and you really liked the bull anyway would you go ahead and use him?

Not if you want your calves to be a Yield grade 1 or 2. Course it's gonna be hard to find an angus with a 15 or over. According to the report in "BEEF" magazine only 3% of the angus bulls sold last year qualify. I "think" they said only 28% of the chars qualify. We've gone flabby with our cattle and that's what happens when we go for those "easy keepin" mama cows.

Plus the fact that it takes about 3 times the energy to put on a lb. of fat than it does muscle. It takes longer to feed them cause they can only eat so much. Your feed bill just got higher too.
 

PPRM

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FH,

I wouldn't, but the calves I raise I sell on the grid. I need as close to a YG 1, definetely no YG 4's. A month ago, YG 4 discount was $20.00 per hundred.

If I was seliing calves to feeders, I wouldn't want the reputation of producing poor yeilding cattle.

In this day and age, there may be a premium for small ribeyes somewhere if you search long enough, but I doubt it.

Many Branded beef programs call for moderate ribeye. I believe Oregon Country Beef asks for a target of 13.

I agree with a lot of what Mike says, but stress there's room for moderation. Unless i knew my cows had extreme rib-eye size, I probably would stay away from him,

Just my 2 cents,

PPRM
 

Northern Rancher

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As a producer who sells the majority of his production on the rail on a carcass grid-I'll still select for those easy keeping momma cows-an efficient low cost cowherd will make you alot of money by saving you alot of money. I have some of those deep soggy cows who've steers have hung up yield grade 1-prime carcasses. The challenge in the cattle business is deciding what balance of traits will return you the most profit. the old adage of you breed cows to fit your enviroment and use bulls that fit your market.
 

PPRM

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NR,

I think you are right on fitting cattle to your environment,. But the original question was in regard to a 10 ribeye. I think there are too many good bulls of a variety of sizes and shaps to waste a calf crop on this one.

Are you in an environment that calls for a 10 ribeye bull?????
 

Mike

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Northern Rancher said:
As a producer who sells the majority of his production on the rail on a carcass grid-I'll still select for those easy keeping momma cows-an efficient low cost cowherd will make you alot of money by saving you alot of money. I have some of those deep soggy cows who've steers have hung up yield grade 1-prime carcasses. The challenge in the cattle business is deciding what balance of traits will return you the most profit. the old adage of you breed cows to fit your enviroment and use bulls that fit your market.

You are correct NR. We must find that balance for ourselves. But a 10 in ribeye on a bull is asking for trouble unless the cows can help out a little.
 

Denny

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what was the age of the bull when it was measured?

I would use him if I liked him I have one here that measured 10 inch at 11 months of age 2 at 10.5 and one at 11.8 the 10 inch bull has the most eye appeal from a really effiecient 1100# cow sometimes I think people rely to much on certain numbers and not enough on the total package.Do you keep heifers?Kit Pharo has a star system for his bull sale 1 thru 5 stars 5 being best.He has them for fleshing ability,udder quality, dispositin and,calving ease these traits are more important than all the carcass data.Take some of those big frame carcass Bulls turn them out to work for a living they come back in in 60 to 90 days looking lioke a reservation dog all ribs and balls and it will take 6 months to put them back into condition.And bulls like that will sire daughters the same way can you afford those type of cattle I cant.I figure once my heifers leave the pen in the first spring they are now cows and need to make it on the same ration as the cows if the bull cant make it on the cows ration cut his head off..If you are driving down the road and make a mistake do you keep driving or do you turn around and get on the right road?
 

Northern Rancher

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You sounded like you don't like easy fleshing cows there Mike-if you read carcass e.p.d's selection for only ribeye inches/cwt will be selection for smaller frame in the long run-everything has a trade off. The problem is more with producers trying to get one breed to excel in every trait-pretty much an impossible feat. You want more yield on Angus cattle -crossbreed a little bit.
 

Faster horses

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Denny, I certainly think like you do. I just didn't know if 10 was 'too far out' in the wrong way; to consider using. The bull would have been ultrasounded at 10 months. I chose the bull because I REALLY LIKED HIS TYPE. Fits exactly what we are looking for. However, the ultrasound came back and the RE was 10.6. I will admit I don't know enough about carcass epd's, ratios or whatever they are~so that is why I was asking here. I believe in easy-doing mother cows. It is very important in our climate and forage conditions. We just can't have big rib-eye, hard doing cattle and stay in business. There is compromise, however.

One thing I have learned in getting carcass data back on our cattle through the feeder that buys them~if the grader is having a bad day, SO ARE YOU! It is unbelievable to me that we are worried about carcass traits and it still comes down to one man in the end. There is something wrong with that picture. Least ways that was the way it was in 2000, when we got carcass data back. Correct me if I am wrong.

We thought this bull to be full of meat and muscle and in a moderate frame. Good disposition, great mother and balanced EPD's all across the board. Just what we were looking for.

What about marbling that was 17% higher than the average of this herd? That was the other bull we bought. I think I will ask for the ultrasound, post it here and see what you all think about it. We really need to learn more about carcass traits, ultrasound, etc.

Had a bull producer tell me that they quite ultrasounding because the ones that scored the best had been sick!!! What do you think of that? Is ultrasounding still too much in infancy to trust the numbers? What is the accuracy. I really hope to get an education from you folks that understand this.

Thanks!!!
 

Northern Rancher

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I've used some bulls who've had steers grid well for me but haven't really had great carcass e.p.d's when they came out. Had a good talk with a buddy about the Angus E.P.D's lately-I wonder if they aren't almost becoming more about marketing thamn selection. There are so many of them that virtually any bull will have a few above breed average so they can be promoted-I think I'll just worry about my cow side of things as we seem to be doing o.k.carcass wise with that approach. Wonder how many purebreed breeders actually have fed a pen or two of cattle-a closeout of a bull's calve's mean more to me than his e'p'd's.
 

Faster horses

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I'm beginning to think we have way too much information provided to us. It is hard to cipher it all~guess that is the point I am at, anyway. I see other successful ranchers that pay no attention to EPD's, etc. (Soapweed is an prime example.)

When we select a bull, we always look at the mother and the granddam, if possible. Larry Leonhardt told us that the most important individual in the pedigree is the granddam on the bottom side, so we try to find out what we can about her. (It has been interesting.) We also try to not select any outliers; or extremes in any direction. Larry said in the 1970's he tried that and it did not work; that cattle will breed to the average of that line of cattle. Outliers will not breed back to themselves. He said he bought the best performing cattle at the bull tests and it did not work at all for him. He quit the performance deal in 1979.

His input has helped us immensely to sort through the information that a breeder provides. We have always selected for maternal traits.

But I think we should learn a little about carcass, even if it is what NOT to do.

Thanks!
 

Andy

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I have beed working for years on building an easy keeping cow herd that has a lot of longevity built in, but also has alot of feedlot preformance and carcass quaility. I would not use a bull with a 10.6ribeye, unless he weighed under 950lbs. I like to see a ribeye of 1.2 in per 100lbs. On the marbeling side I try and pick something that is in the top 35% but not in the top 5%. I have found that the very high and the very low marbleing heifers tend to be open.

I think that NR is right, but you need a certain level of everything on the cow side. A good cow can make up for a bad bull, but a good bull can't make up for a bad cow.
 

BRG

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Something else you need to look at is his weight at time of ultrasound. They recommend that the ribeye shoulds be around 1 inch per hundred pounds of weight. I personally don't ever want to go to a restaurant and sit down to a 16 inch ribeye. The portions are to big the way it is.

Also, I think we should stay in the middle of the road on everything. To many fads going on and if you chase one you will loose something somewhere else. Like rib eye for example. You get to big of rib eyes and then you will loose back fat and marbling ussually, then you will have harder keeping cows and then more opens in the fall. You can't make any money on an open cow. We haven't ever chased the carcass deal and we always kill around 85% choise and almost all of the yeild grades are 2's and 3's. Never big premiums, but never big losses either.
 

Faster horses

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I'm still trying to figure this out (it must be my age!). This bull weighed 1193, so he should have 11.9 ribeye, correct?

None of the other bulls we bought have been ultrasounded, so they might have a 10 ribeye, or 14. We just don't know. Now, about he marbling, should I find out the marbling score? The ratio of 117 only means he marbled 17% higher than the rest of this particular herd, right?

Does a small ribeye mean more fat over the back? Ribeye, is the size of the T-bones, right? Does that correlate to anything else?

As I mentioned, I'm pretty much in the dark here. Our cattle do grade mostly choice, that is why the same buyer feeds them out every year. Some make CAB. Would that be selling on the grid? He doesn't always sell that way though. I think he has sold through US Premium Beef. If he doesn't sell on the grid is he just taking averages? They do go for restaurant trade, I think is what he has said. I guess I need to pay more attention, OR understand it better; which is what I am striving to do.

I am serious about trying to figure this out.
Thanks!
 

PPRM

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Andy,

Great reply, liked the way you quantify things.

FH, you look at it as too much information. I look at th time we are in as one where there are enough real good bull out there that I shouldn't have to waste my time with one that doesn't measure up. Hitting the average o where you need to be is ok, but going down really isn't in my book.

I look at bulls like hoses, too many good ones to waste my time with a bad one,

PPRM
 

BRG

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You also have to look at that bull. If he qualified for every other requirement you have. Then maybe he will work. Remember, their was no ultrasound a few years ago and we all did just fine. Sometimes I think we would be better off without all of these things because it is in peoples nature to go to extremes. Don't let everyone dictate how you need to run your cattle. We need the buyers and feeders, but they don't know your enviroment. We still have to raise them in our own pastures. You know better than anyone what your pasture and feed situation will let you do.
 

PPRM

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BRG,

I would think within the context of the environment FH has to work with, she can do better.

Do just fine my tail. I do a damb good job sorting cattle, mainly bought cattle to sell on the grid. My percentage that hit choice is high. Saleyard cattle on a lot of this. Every so often there will be one that I find out was all "Bark", couldn't yeild for anything. Last one was a YG 4 and I got docked $20..0/cwt. I have had some select calves with YG3, heaven help you if you get a select YG 4. Be down to getting about $65/cwt on the hoof.

If I could have sourced this calf back to his sire, it would save me from making that mistake again. As it is, best I cn do is give the ranch it came from a label. I would rather we were in a world of enough info we could all improve and all make more.

I did great on a pen of Charlais calves, but I do well on others. I can buy moderate and even smaller calves and do well. But stick me with a small ribeye and I am sunk, the discounts will put me in the red. I am not saying they have to be giant, but can't be small,

my 2 cents

PPRM
 

Andy

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FH"I'm still trying to figure this out (it must be my age!). This bull weighed 1193, so he should have 11.9 ribeye, correct?"
I would like a 1200lb bull to have a 14.4in Ribeye (1.2 per 100lbs).

FH"None of the other bulls we bought have been ultrasounded, so they might have a 10 ribeye, or 14. We just don't know. Now, about he marbling, should I find out the marbling score? The ratio of 117 only means he marbled 17% higher than the rest of this particular herd, right?"

The marbling score would be nice to know, but also the backfat. I have seen bulls with high marbling scores, but they have .4in backfat so they are as fat as our steers going to kill. They 117 ratio means he was 17% higher than the average of his contempary group, some herds may have 3-5 contempary groups.

FH"Does a small ribeye mean more fat over the back? Ribeye, is the size of the T-bones, right? Does that correlate to anything else?"

The ribeye correlates to only two things. The size of the ribeye, which makes up only 9% of the carcass. It also correlates to the redmeat yield.

BRG, A 16 once ribeye is very big, but just because the ribeye is big doesn't mean the other cuts will be any bigger, because most other cuts are cut down to size anyway.
 

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