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So the Windbag questioned if Bush/Cheney were war criminals

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Steve said:
Oldtimer said:
Steve said:
faceless (unknown) enemies are targets.. (such as a combatant )

by law you can shoot at the enemy combatant... because they are a military target..

but if you know who the enemy is that you are shooting at, and want him dead... then it is an assassination..

the exception is if the enemy is shooting at you, then you can return deadly force..

So then you believe FDR's authorization to seek out and kill General Yamamoto was illegal :???:

the law is clear. it doesn't say if the guy is the devil himself you can kill him...

shall I re-post it?




In 1976, President Ford issued Executive Order 11905 to clarify U.S. foreign intelligence activities.
In a section of the order labeled "Restrictions on Intelligence Activities," Ford outlawed political assassination: Section 5(g), entitled "Prohibition on Assassination," states: "No employee of the United States Government shall engage in, or conspire to engage in, political assassination."

In 1978 President Carter issued an executive order with the chief purpose of reshaping the intelligence structure. In Section 2-305 of that order, Carter reaffirmed the U.S. prohibition on assassination.
Executive Order 11905 was revised.138 In 1978, President Carter broadened the scope of the ban, newly numbered Executive Order 12306,139 by adding the phrase "those acting on behalf of the United States," to the text and deleting the word "political."140

In 1981, President Reagan, through Executive Order 12333, reiterated the assassination prohibition. Reagan was the last president to address the topic of political assassination. Because no subsequent executive order or piece of legislation has repealed the prohibition, it remains in effect.

Steve- I see no law (Congressionally passed) in your posting- just Presidential Executive Orders- which the sitting President can then throw out or change at will....

And it appears President Reagan set precedence to that in 1986 in trying to kill Qadhafi...

In reality, contemporary critics have suggested Executive Order 11905 likely prohibited assassination in general terms primarily in order to resolve political pressure to correct the problem and to serve as a visible symbol of policy.143 Others suspect that the Order may have preempted actual legislation that would have been much more specific and prohibitive—and thus harmful to the military and intelligence capabilities of the United States.144

Part of the advantage of employing an executive order to prohibit assassinations is its inherent flexibility. Although each order has the effect of law, they are not immutable, and allow the President a variety of ways to circumvent them. The President has the authority to overrule the order, make an exception to it, or ask Congress to legislate its removal.145 Additionally, the President may designate any of these changes as classified if he considers them "intelligence activities . . . or intelligence sources and methods," effectively preventing them from ever reaching public view.146

The executive order ban on assassinations may also be bypassed through a number of other executive actions. First, the President may ask Congress to declare war.147 As stated above, during wartime, a different body of law is used to define assassination, under which the President has much greater legal latitude to strike at foreign leaders as combatants. Second, the President may invoke the United States' Article 51 rights to self-defense,148 an act which authorizes the use of force equivalent to a declaration of war. Finally, the President could exercise his executive discretion to interpret the order narrowly, free[*PG24]ing him to authorize activities which potentially could result in a leader's death, but do not explicitly call for it.149

So many options exist to get around the ban that many observers have suggested that Executive Order 11905 and its successors are mostly symbolic in function, doing little to actually restrict the use of force.150 In a public memorandum of law, senior military lawyers came to a similar conclusion, finding that Executive Order 12333 does not limit action in wartime or restrict self-defense action during peacetime against legitimate threats to the national security of the United States.151 Therefore, the Order should not be viewed as a practical ban, but instead as a preventive measure to stop unilateral actions by officials within the government and a guarantee that the authority to order assassinations lies with the President alone.152

C. Executive Order 12333 and Schultz's "Active Defense"
In 1981, President Reagan issued the most recent version of the ban, Executive Order 12333. This new Order, which remains in effect today, retained President Carter's wording, but added a section that prohibits indirect assassination by members of the intelligence community.153 It was the Reagan administration's use of force in response to terrorism, however, not the minor revisions in the Order itself, that proved to be more significant. On April 15, 1986, U.S. Air Force F-111 fighter-bombers struck three targets in Libya in retaliation for a Libyan-plotted terrorist attack at a Berlin nightclub that had killed a U.S. servicemen and wounded over two hundred others. One of these targets, the El Azziziya Barracks, was reportedly known by American intelligence to be the home and headquarters of Libyan leader Colonel Muammar Qadhafi. Although he was not present at the time of the attack, his wife and two sons were injured, and his young adopted daughter was killed.154

Press scrutiny of the raid revealed considerable evidence suggesting that the attack was intended to kill Qadhafi.155 The strike targets were close to his tent—which was in the corner of a very large open [*PG25]courtyard156—and the United States supposedly sought intelligence on his location right up until the night of the attack.157 According to reporter Seymour Hersh, nine of the eighteen bombers employed in the raid had a specific mission to target Qadhafi and his family.158 As one Air Force intelligence officer put it: "There's no question they were looking for Qadhafi. It was briefed that way. They were going to kill him."
159 Additionally, administration officials were instructed before the raid to prepare briefs that distinguished how Qadhafi's hypothetical death in the pending attack was not an assassination.160 Furthermore, language announcing his demise was reportedly prepared for the President's speech that evening.
 
Steve- I see no law (Congressionally passed) in your posting- just Presidential Executive Orders- which the sitting President can then throw out or change at will....

Executive orders have the full force of law,

Thirty days after it is officially published in the Federal Register, an EO becomes law.

seems clear enough..
 
A law that can be overridden by another executive order--and it appears Obama did issue an Executive Order- and that GW set precedent with the targeting of another American citizen :

Although each order has the effect of law, they are not immutable, and allow the President a variety of ways to circumvent them. The President has the authority to overrule the order, make an exception to it, or ask Congress to legislate its removal.

Secret U.S. memo sanctioned killing of Aulaqi



By Peter Finn,
The Justice Department wrote a secret memorandum authorizing the lethal targeting of Anwar al-Aulaqi, the American-born radical cleric who was killed by a U.S. drone strike Friday, according to administration officials.

The document was produced following a review of the legal issues raised by striking a U.S. citizen and involved senior lawyers from across the administration. There was no dissent about the legality of killing Aulaqi, the officials said.


"What constitutes due process in this case is a due process in war," said one of the officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss closely held deliberations within the administration.

The administration has faced a legal challenge and public criticism for targeting Aulaqi, who was born in New Mexico, because of constitutional protections afforded U.S. citizens. The memorandum may represent an attempt to resolve, at least internally, a legal debate over whether a president can order the killing of U.S. citizens overseas as a counterterrorism measure.

The operation to kill Aulaqi involved CIA and military assets under CIA control. A former senior intelligence official said that the CIA would not have killed an American without such a written opinion.

A second American killed in Friday's attack was Samir Khan, a driving force behind Inspire, the English-language magazine produced by al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. An administration official said the CIA did not know Khan was with Aulaqi, but they also considered Khan a belligerent whose presence near the target would not have stopped the attack.

The circumstances of Khan's death were reminiscent of a 2002 U.S. drone strike in Yemen that targeted Abu Ali al-Harithi, a Yemeni al-Qaeda operative accused of planning the 2000 attack on the USS Cole. That strike also killed a U.S. citizen who the CIA knew was in Harithi's vehicle but who was a target of the attack .

The Obama administration has spoken in broad terms about its authority to use military and paramilitary force against al-Qaeda and associated forces beyond "hot," or traditional, battlefields such as Iraq or Afghanistan. Officials said that certain belligerents aren't shielded because of their citizenship.

"As a general matter, it would be entirely lawful for the United States to target high-level leaders of enemy forces, regardless of their nationality, who are plotting to kill Americans both under the authority provided by Congress in its use of military force in the armed conflict with al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and associated forces as well as established international law that recognizes our right of self-defense," an administration official said in a statement Friday.

President Obama and various administration officials referred to Aulaqi publicly for the first time Friday as the "external operations" chief for al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, a label that may be intended to underscore his status as an operational leader who posed an imminent threat.

A Justice Department spokeswoman declined to comment. The administration officials refused to disclose the exact legal analysis used to authorize targeting Aulaqi, or how they considered any Fifth Amendment right to due process.
 
Oldtimer said:
A law that can be overridden by another executive order--and it appears Obama did issue an Executive Order-

feel free to show the proof.. all executive orders are filed and public..

for him to do so he must resend all the prior Executive orders and change the US code..

otherwise the President violated the law..
 
Steve said:
Oldtimer said:
A law that can be overridden by another executive order--and it appears Obama did issue an Executive Order-

feel free to show the proof.. all executive orders are filed and public..

for him to do so he must resend all the prior Executive orders and change the US code..

otherwise the President violated the law..


Although each order has the effect of law, they are not immutable, and allow the President a variety of ways to circumvent them. The President has the authority to overrule the order, make an exception to it, or ask Congress to legislate its removal.

Well its being reported he said he authorized it-- and as President and Commander and Chief, I would call that an executive order...If its anything like GW's orders/authorizations it may be years before we see it....

I'm not going to play semantics-- He ordered it and the Good Guys went out and carried it out...An ATTA-BOY to both the President and our military/CIA boys is in order!!
 
Steve, in an effort to prove OT's point that President Obama did not break the law or trample the US Constitution with his order to kill an American citizen without due process, I did extensive research. Unfortunately, I was unsuccessful.

I did though come across a photo of OT's efforts.

It's quite the sight and illustrates how he can reconcile in his own mind what no one else can see.

lj109.jpg


TheOldWindbag said:
I'm not going to play semantics

Yeah right. :lol:
 
Oldtimer said:
To me this brings up another question...Should we still be allowing these folks that are US born citizens- that then leave/abandon their country and take on a new countries citizenship to keep their US citizenship?

And used passports from both countries- and claimed citizenship to whichever benefited him the most at that time.....


Well some good came out of this thread-- at least oldtimer FINALLY figured out Barry Sotero is not Constitutionally eligible to be President of the U.S. :D
 
don't worry oldtimer will over look that because it is to his benefit eh ??? :wink: :wink: :wink:
 
Oldtimer said:
Steve said:
Oldtimer said:
A law that can be overridden by another executive order--and it appears Obama did issue an Executive Order-

feel free to show the proof.. all executive orders are filed and public..

for him to do so he must resend all the prior Executive orders and change the US code..

otherwise the President violated the law..


Although each order has the effect of law, they are not immutable, and allow the President a variety of ways to circumvent them. The President has the authority to overrule the order, make an exception to it, or ask Congress to legislate its removal.

Well its being reported he said he authorized it-- and as President and Commander and Chief, I would call that an executive order...If its anything like GW's orders/authorizations it may be years before we see it....

I'm not going to play semantics-- He ordered it and the Good Guys went out and carried it out...An ATTA-BOY to both the President and our military/CIA boys is in order!!

I would agree on the atta boy...

as for the rest.. it is NOT a Executive Order, nor lawful..

the president broke the law.. I stand by my principles .. illegal is illegal.. no matter how much I agree with the decision..
 
Assassin-in-Chief
From the Nov. 1, 2010, issue of NR.

A commander-in-chief does not have unilateral authority to invade foreign countries or to name belligerents, and it is clear that the Founders did not intend to give the president that kind of unchecked war-making power, much less to compound it with unchecked domestic police and surveillance powers, which is why the power to declare war resides with Congress rather than with the president. Our Constitution, as in all things, relies upon checks and balances when it comes to the conduct of war. It is significant that the final powers — to declare war, to ratify a peace treaty, to punish treason — do not rest with the president, but with Congress.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/278845/assassin-chief-kevin-d-williamson
 

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