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Special Counsel to Probe Holder on 'Fast and Furious'

Lonecowboy

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
Gunrunning to Mexico has been going on since the days of the Juaristas and old Pancho Villa...Not sure if it was even illegal back then...

But I'm curious how would all you Kojaks go about investigating and making a case against these criminal elements in both the US and Mexico that are conspiring to illegally take US firearms into Mexico and furnishing the drug cartels with them :???: ....

I'm interested to hear....

Taking down the mules could be done any day- but with the big profits to be made there will be hundreds of new ones standing in line... How do you propose you make a case against the major players- the big money conspirators?

if this is legit then why did holder lie? why is he trying to distance himself from this if it is legit and not illegal? issa is trying to "make case against these criminal elements in both the US and Mexico that are conspiring to illegally take US firearms into Mexico and furnishing the drug cartels with them." the criminal elements being namely the ATF agents, holder and probably obama!
 

Steve

Well-known member
But I'm curious how would all you Kojaks go about investigating and making a case against these criminal elements in both the US and Mexico that are conspiring to illegally take US firearms into Mexico and furnishing the drug cartels with the

I would start by arresting them when they committed the first crime... the straw purchase.

a swift conviction and a long jail term often seems to loosen the tongue..

and if it doesn't oh well at least the guns were stopped..

in other words.. uphold the laws already on the books..
 

Steve

Well-known member
Taking down the mules could be done any day- but with the big profits to be made there will be hundreds of new ones standing in line... How do you propose you make a case against the major players- the big money conspirators?

making the case against criminals in another country is often difficult.. especially in a lawless situation like Mexico..

this bungled operation shows how not to do it..

This whole scam of going after the big guys is only for padding resumes.. it seldom actually makes the US safer, or puts a real dent in crime..
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Steve said:
But I'm curious how would all you Kojaks go about investigating and making a case against these criminal elements in both the US and Mexico that are conspiring to illegally take US firearms into Mexico and furnishing the drug cartels with the

I would start by arresting them when they committed the first crime... the straw purchase.

a swift conviction and a long jail term often seems to loosen the tongue..

and if it doesn't oh well at least the guns were stopped..

in other words.. uphold the laws already on the books..

Steve- thank you for being the first one that actually has a positive idea...

I don't think it will work- because many/most of those purchasing these guns are doing so legally under current US law...Yes everyone knows they are straw purchasers- and are then transferring them on to some mule to get them across the border- but unless you can show the trail- they walk... And the profits for these mules/smugglers is so high- that as soon as one is locked up- there will be 100 more volunteer... The drug money has thrown everything out of proportion..

I remember during the Bush administration when the ATF/Customs/etc agents served search warrents on some homes of individuals that had made huge amounts of gun purchases- and found no guns- and the gunsrights/NRA folks went nuts complaining about it ...

There was a great show on the National Geographic Channel a couple weeks back-- showing the nations enthusiasm and legal use of guns-- but also showing how some dealers and these purchasers for profit were abusing the system right inside the country... It highlighted Camden NJ- that has stringent firearms laws- but has one of the highest shooting rates in the nation...They showed how the straw purchasers could go to a gun store in PA.- buy all the guns they had money for- and take them back to Camden and sell them at a high profit margin to the drug gangs there that have unlimited funds... The sad thing of the whole show- was when the interviewed the legal gun dealer that most of the crime guns were found to originate from- he said he had no idea of where all those guns went when they left his store- nor did he care.....

I really don't know the answer--but I'm not going to knock the law enforcement officers of either the Bush or Obama administration for trying...

My personal opinion is that Mexico- and what is happening in Mexico right now with the drug cartels trying to take over the country presents as big or a greater terrorist threat than any of the Muslim countries.....These drug cartels could care less who or how many they kill- and or where....They already have hired ex-Soviet Union submarine technicians to help them build submarines that are carrying tons of drugs into the country undetected - and they would not be beyond helping any terrorist if there was a profit to be made or it would further their cause....
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
Steve said:
But I'm curious how would all you Kojaks go about investigating and making a case against these criminal elements in both the US and Mexico that are conspiring to illegally take US firearms into Mexico and furnishing the drug cartels with the

I would start by arresting them when they committed the first crime... the straw purchase.

a swift conviction and a long jail term often seems to loosen the tongue..

and if it doesn't oh well at least the guns were stopped..

in other words.. uphold the laws already on the books..

Steve- thank you for being the first one that actually has a positive idea...

I don't think it will work- because many/most of those purchasing these guns are doing so legally under current US law...Yes everyone knows they are straw purchasers- and are then transferring them on to some mule to get them across the border- but unless you can show the trail- they walk... And the profits for these mules/smugglers is so high- that as soon as one is locked up- there will be 100 more volunteer... The drug money has thrown everything out of proportion..

I remember during the Bush administration when the ATF/Customs/etc agents served search warrents on some homes of individuals that had made huge amounts of gun purchases- and found no guns- and the gunsrights/NRA folks went nuts complaining about it ...

There was a great show on the National Geographic Channel a couple weeks back-- showing the nations enthusiasm and legal use of guns-- but also showing how some dealers and these purchasers for profit were abusing the system right inside the country... It highlighted Camden NJ- that has stringent firearms laws- but has one of the highest shooting rates in the nation...They showed how the straw purchasers could go to a gun store in PA.- buy all the guns they had money for- and take them back to Camden and sell them at a high profit margin to the drug gangs there that have unlimited funds... The sad thing of the whole show- was when the interviewed the legal gun dealer that most of the crime guns were found to originate from- he said he had no idea of where all those guns went when they left his store- nor did he care.....

I really don't know the answer--but I'm not going to knock the law enforcement officers of either the Bush or Obama administration for trying...

My personal opinion is that Mexico- and what is happening in Mexico right now with the drug cartels trying to take over the country presents as big or a greater terrorist threat than any of the Muslim countries.....These drug cartels could care less who or how many they kill- and or where....They already have hired ex-Soviet Union submarine technicians to help them build submarines that are carrying tons of drugs into the country undetected - and they would not be beyond helping any terrorist if there was a profit to be made or it would further their cause....


he wasn't the first one, but you were just too dense to pick up on it...... :lol:
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
hypocritexposer said:
Oldtimer said:
Steve said:
I would start by arresting them when they committed the first crime... the straw purchase.

a swift conviction and a long jail term often seems to loosen the tongue..

and if it doesn't oh well at least the guns were stopped..

in other words.. uphold the laws already on the books..

Steve- thank you for being the first one that actually has a positive idea...

I don't think it will work- because many/most of those purchasing these guns are doing so legally under current US law...Yes everyone knows they are straw purchasers- and are then transferring them on to some mule to get them across the border- but unless you can show the trail- they walk... And the profits for these mules/smugglers is so high- that as soon as one is locked up- there will be 100 more volunteer... The drug money has thrown everything out of proportion..

I remember during the Bush administration when the ATF/Customs/etc agents served search warrents on some homes of individuals that had made huge amounts of gun purchases- and found no guns- and the gunsrights/NRA folks went nuts complaining about it ...

There was a great show on the National Geographic Channel a couple weeks back-- showing the nations enthusiasm and legal use of guns-- but also showing how some dealers and these purchasers for profit were abusing the system right inside the country... It highlighted Camden NJ- that has stringent firearms laws- but has one of the highest shooting rates in the nation...They showed how the straw purchasers could go to a gun store in PA.- buy all the guns they had money for- and take them back to Camden and sell them at a high profit margin to the drug gangs there that have unlimited funds... The sad thing of the whole show- was when the interviewed the legal gun dealer that most of the crime guns were found to originate from- he said he had no idea of where all those guns went when they left his store- nor did he care.....

I really don't know the answer--but I'm not going to knock the law enforcement officers of either the Bush or Obama administration for trying...

My personal opinion is that Mexico- and what is happening in Mexico right now with the drug cartels trying to take over the country presents as big or a greater terrorist threat than any of the Muslim countries.....These drug cartels could care less who or how many they kill- and or where....They already have hired ex-Soviet Union submarine technicians to help them build submarines that are carrying tons of drugs into the country undetected - and they would not be beyond helping any terrorist if there was a profit to be made or it would further their cause....


he wasn't the first one, but you were just too dense to pick up on it...... :lol:

I've seen nothing yet that will work...So what is your answer Dudley Dooright? :wink:
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
hypocritexposer said:
Oldtimer said:
Steve- thank you for being the first one that actually has a positive idea...

I don't think it will work- because many/most of those purchasing these guns are doing so legally under current US law...Yes everyone knows they are straw purchasers- and are then transferring them on to some mule to get them across the border- but unless you can show the trail- they walk... And the profits for these mules/smugglers is so high- that as soon as one is locked up- there will be 100 more volunteer... The drug money has thrown everything out of proportion..

I remember during the Bush administration when the ATF/Customs/etc agents served search warrents on some homes of individuals that had made huge amounts of gun purchases- and found no guns- and the gunsrights/NRA folks went nuts complaining about it ...

There was a great show on the National Geographic Channel a couple weeks back-- showing the nations enthusiasm and legal use of guns-- but also showing how some dealers and these purchasers for profit were abusing the system right inside the country... It highlighted Camden NJ- that has stringent firearms laws- but has one of the highest shooting rates in the nation...They showed how the straw purchasers could go to a gun store in PA.- buy all the guns they had money for- and take them back to Camden and sell them at a high profit margin to the drug gangs there that have unlimited funds... The sad thing of the whole show- was when the interviewed the legal gun dealer that most of the crime guns were found to originate from- he said he had no idea of where all those guns went when they left his store- nor did he care.....

I really don't know the answer--but I'm not going to knock the law enforcement officers of either the Bush or Obama administration for trying...

My personal opinion is that Mexico- and what is happening in Mexico right now with the drug cartels trying to take over the country presents as big or a greater terrorist threat than any of the Muslim countries.....These drug cartels could care less who or how many they kill- and or where....They already have hired ex-Soviet Union submarine technicians to help them build submarines that are carrying tons of drugs into the country undetected - and they would not be beyond helping any terrorist if there was a profit to be made or it would further their cause....


he wasn't the first one, but you were just too dense to pick up on it...... :lol:

I've seen nothing yet that will work...So what is your answer Dudley Dooright? :wink:


first off, you'd do better in the US with some additional "Dudley Doorights", instead of the "Diddling DoNothings" you already have......

I wouldn't break international law, that's for sure. Next I would use all means necessary to enforce existing laws.

Weapons travelling across the border and then back again to kill US citizens.......?

Why not try beefing up border security, instead of letting every "T, D and Harry" cross?

complete the fence on the southern border, instead of playing politics with a proposal to build one on the Northern border.

Or.....keep things the way they are, keep spending over $100 billion a year to support the illegals, let them cross unchecked and watch the cancer spread into the Southern states. choose this option and it will only be a matter of time before the US will have to send in troops, to Mexico. "Ounce of prevention", ever heard of it?

1 of 2 choices, but choose wisely, and quickly, you're running out of time
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
hypocritexposer said:
Oldtimer said:
hypocritexposer said:
he wasn't the first one, but you were just too dense to pick up on it...... :lol:

I've seen nothing yet that will work...So what is your answer Dudley Dooright? :wink:


first off, you'd do better in the US with some additional "Dudley Doorights", instead of the "Diddling DoNothings" you already have......

I wouldn't break international law, that's for sure. Next I would use all means necessary to enforce existing laws.

Weapons travelling across the border and then back again to kill US citizens.......?

Why not try beefing up border security, instead of letting every "T, D and Harry" cross?

complete the fence on the southern border, instead of playing politics with a proposal to build one on the Northern border.

Or.....keep things the way they are, keep spending over $100 billion a year to support the illegals, let them cross unchecked and watch the cancer spread into the Southern states. choose this option and it will only be a matter of time before the US will have to send in troops, to Mexico. "Ounce of prevention", ever heard of it?

1 of 2 choices, but choose wisely, and quickly, you're running out of time

I agree with building the fence- and more agents on the border-- but with the money to be made from the Mexican drug gangs- and with the money they have (enough to hire engineers, finance, and build submarines) that will not stop it in my opinon...

It would be a start- but probably never happen as neither party will close the border... Where would all the rich folks stuffing their campaign war chests their get their nanny's, housekeepers, gardeners and pool boys ? Where could some of the corporates and business's find semi slave labor?

I'm turning more to the belief that you may have to put some responsibility to gun ownership...So that when hundreds of guns you purchased show up being used in crimes- you can't just say you must have lost them...
I believe every law abiding citizen has a right to own a firearm- but with it they must take some responsibility.....
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
I agree with building the fence- and more agents on the border-- but with the money to be made from the Mexican drug gangs- and with the money they have (enough to hire engineers, finance, and build submarines) that will not stop it in my opinon...

It would be a start- but probably never happen as neither party will close the border... Where would all the rich folks stuffing their campaign war chests their get their nanny's, housekeepers, gardeners and pool boys ? Where could some of the corporates and business's find semi slave labor?

I'm turning more to the belief that you may have to put some responsibility to gun ownership...So that when hundreds of guns you purchased show up being used in crimes- you can't just say you must have lost them...
I believe every law abiding citizen has a right to own a firearm- but with it they must take some responsibility.....


a gun registry....... :lol: :lol:


sure reduced crime here in Canada, that's for sure.......so much so, we got no gun crime anymore, so we're going to end the gun registry.......

:roll:


what they should do is legislate the registration off door locks and that way there won't be any more "break and enters"

:wink:
 

okfarmer

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
hypocritexposer said:
Oldtimer said:
I've seen nothing yet that will work...So what is your answer Dudley Dooright? :wink:


first off, you'd do better in the US with some additional "Dudley Doorights", instead of the "Diddling DoNothings" you already have......

I wouldn't break international law, that's for sure. Next I would use all means necessary to enforce existing laws.

Weapons travelling across the border and then back again to kill US citizens.......?

Why not try beefing up border security, instead of letting every "T, D and Harry" cross?

complete the fence on the southern border, instead of playing politics with a proposal to build one on the Northern border.

Or.....keep things the way they are, keep spending over $100 billion a year to support the illegals, let them cross unchecked and watch the cancer spread into the Southern states. choose this option and it will only be a matter of time before the US will have to send in troops, to Mexico. "Ounce of prevention", ever heard of it?

1 of 2 choices, but choose wisely, and quickly, you're running out of time

I agree with building the fence- and more agents on the border-- but with the money to be made from the Mexican drug gangs- and with the money they have (enough to hire engineers, finance, and build submarines) that will not stop it in my opinon...

It would be a start- but probably never happen as neither party will close the border... Where would all the rich folks stuffing their campaign war chests their get their nanny's, housekeepers, gardeners and pool boys ? Where could some of the corporates and business's find semi slave labor?

I'm turning more to the belief that you may have to put some responsibility to gun ownership...So that when hundreds of guns you purchased show up being used in crimes- you can't just say you must have lost them...
I believe every law abiding citizen has a right to own a firearm- but with it they must take some responsibility.....


So what you are saying is that if a citizen's gun is stolen and used to commit a crime, the citizen should be held responsible?

And in the previous breath, the ATF has done nothing wrong by knowingly supplying criminals with guns..



You may want to inform yourself a little better, there were multiple gun store owners not wanting to sell guns to the criminals but proceeded because they were asked to by the feds. At one point, a gun store owner was threatened to lose his FFL if he did not comply with the feds and continue to sell guns.
 

Steve

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
If they are going to scream and object to the latest investigation it appears as tho they better expand their investigation into ATF's activities under the Bush years too- as it appears Congress knew nothing of this operation either....
Looks like Obama dumbly followed a GW precedent again....... :wink:

Report: Bush let guns 'walk'


The Bush administration also ran an operation that allowed hundreds of guns to be transferred to suspected arms traffickers - the same tactic that congressional Republicans are criticizing the Department of Justice for using, the AP reports.

Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Calif.), chairman of the House Committee on Oversight, and other Republicans have been slamming Attorney General Eric Holder and the Department of Justice over the Fast and Furious operation, a controversial gun-running program that went wrong.

Under the Fast and Furious program, weapons were allowed to be illegally purchased so that they could be tracked to gun traffickers and drug cartel leaders. But the ATF, which operates within the DoJ, lost track of these firearms, and many were allowed to cross into Mexico.

The practice of “letting guns walk” to trace their sales was also used in the Bush administration, federal officials tells the AP. The ATF began what became known as Operation Wide Receiver in 2006, after receiving information about a suspicious purchase of firearms. The investigation involved letting the guns “walk,” and the investigation concluded in 2007 without any charges being filed.
----

Senator Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa), the ranking Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee, told the AP in a statement that “whether it’s Operation Fast and Furious, Operation Wide Receiver, or both, it’s clear that guns were walked, and people high in the Justice Department knew about it. There’s no excuse for walking guns, and if there are more operations like this, Congress and the American people need to know.”

several important and interesting facts have come out on operation wide receiver..

1. the guns were to be tracked with radio tracking.
2. the Mexican government knew of the program
3. the guns were to be "physically" tracked from point of origin to illegal sale.
4. the operation was considered a utter failure.

so essentially the same agents were involved in both failed operations, . yet under new "Obama" leadership... they tried the same failed program with less controls and more guns and a fancy new name... and "expected" better results

but my guess is they didn't expect better results.. instead intended the operation to be ammunition for stricter gun control laws..
 

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