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Disagreeable

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Georgie was really unhappy yesterday when the newsmedia finally put out the story that he's been spying on American citizens. So far I haven't seen anyone defend that policy. Does he seriously think he's above the law? There is a secret court set up for him to use in emergency situations; he refused to even use it! Link to full article below; my emphasis. BTW, for those who claim the press is slanted against this Administration, the Times held this story for a year because the White House asked them to. Shame on them. If they had broken it before the election....

"Months after the Sept. 11 attacks, President Bush secretly authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans and others inside the United States to search for evidence of terrorist activity without the court-approved warrants ordinarily required for domestic spying, according to government officials.
Under a presidential order signed in 2002, the intelligence agency has monitored the international telephone calls and international e-mail messages of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people inside the United States without warrants over the past three years in an effort to track possible "dirty numbers" linked to Al Qaeda, the officials said. The agency, they said, still seeks warrants to monitor entirely domestic communications.
The previously undisclosed decision to permit some eavesdropping inside the country without court approval represents a major shift in American intelligence-gathering practices, particularly for the National Security Agency, whose mission is to spy on communications abroad. As a result, some officials familiar with the continuing operation have questioned whether the surveillance has stretched, if not crossed, constitutional limits on legal searches.
"This is really a sea change," said a former senior official who specializes in national security law. "It's almost a mainstay of this country that the N.S.A. only does foreign searches."
Nearly a dozen current and former officials, who were granted anonymity because of the classified nature of the program, discussed it with reporters for The New York Times because of their concerns about the operation's legality and oversight.
According to those officials and others, reservations about aspects of the program have also been expressed by Senator John D. Rockefeller IV, the West Virginia Democrat who is the vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, and a judge presiding over a secret court that oversees intelligence matters. Some of the questions about the agency's new powers led the administration to temporarily suspend the operation last year and impose more restrictions, the officials said."


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/15/politics/15cnd-program.html?ei=5094&en=0a4739ca3ab6d63b&hp=&ex=1134709200&adxnnl=1&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print&adxnnlx=1134921689-p4jSKAZKT5A1FTM7G6Ib3g
 

Steve

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Zacarias Moussaoui (born May 30, 1968) is a French terrorist of Moroccan descent involved in the conspiracy that resulted in the September 11, 2001 attacks. He was taken into custody by the Federal Bureau of Investigation in on August 16, 2001., ,,,

On August 16, 2000, Moussaoui was arrested by the FBI in Minnesota and charged with an immigration violation. Some agents worried that his flight training had violent intentions, so the Minnesota bureau tried to get permission to search his laptop computer, but they were turned down.

Leading in that research was agent Coleen Rowley who made an explicit request for permission to search the personal rooms of Moussaoui. This request was turned down.,,

Several further attempts failed the very same way. As a result the chance of finding early evidence passed unused...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zacarias_Moussaoui

had we monitered his calls, searched his laptop,or went through his things, ,yes had we violated his civil liberties, thousands could have been saved a horrific death, ,,,,,,,,,...
 

wdcook

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link; http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/12/18/221452.shtml

Bush is blasted by the Dim's when he 'didn't connect the dots' in order to prevent 911, now the idiotic Dim's blast him for trying to do so to prevent future attacks. Must be nice, Dis, to have your cake and eat it too.
 

kolanuraven

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Watch out....." they" could be reading this forum. The " G" men could come-a-knockin' soon!!!

Hmmmm....any one remember NIXON and his little habit of eavesdropping......ring a bell???
 

Steve

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Watch out....." they" could be reading this forum. The " G" men could come-a-knockin' soon!!!

Well invite them in Give them some Hot Chocolate, and sugar cookies, (could be Santa)...

Really just as searching little old ladies, and making all of US take our shoes off at the airport is a waste of resources, watching this site would also be....

Merry Christmas and a happy New Year

And Remember Santa is always watching,,

Check to see which list you made....

http://www.claus.com/naughtyornice/index.php

Mine.....

Steven
Nice, but with a few naughty marks. Neatness needs improvement. ( so does your Speelling), Behavior has been good sometimes, not so good other times. Manners could still use some attention. Was very nice last Monday.
 

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Steve said:
Zacarias Moussaoui (born May 30, 1968) is a French terrorist of Moroccan descent involved in the conspiracy that resulted in the September 11, 2001 attacks. He was taken into custody by the Federal Bureau of Investigation in on August 16, 2001., ,,,

On August 16, 2000, Moussaoui was arrested by the FBI in Minnesota and charged with an immigration violation. Some agents worried that his flight training had violent intentions, so the Minnesota bureau tried to get permission to search his laptop computer, but they were turned down.

Leading in that research was agent Coleen Rowley who made an explicit request for permission to search the personal rooms of Moussaoui. This request was turned down.,,

Several further attempts failed the very same way. As a result the chance of finding early evidence passed unused...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zacarias_Moussaoui

had we monitered his calls, searched his laptop,or went through his things, ,yes had we violated his civil liberties, thousands could have been saved a horrific death, ,,,,,,,,,...[/quote]

Are you ignoring my post that Al-Zarqawi was caught and released by Iraqis? There is a secret court that Bush allowed Bush wiretap for 72 hours before asking for a warrant. He didn't even bother.
 

Disagreeable

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Steve said:
Zacarias Moussaoui (born May 30, 1968) is a French terrorist of Moroccan descent involved in the conspiracy that resulted in the September 11, 2001 attacks. He was taken into custody by the Federal Bureau of Investigation in on August 16, 2001., ,,,

On August 16, 2000, Moussaoui was arrested by the FBI in Minnesota and charged with an immigration violation. Some agents worried that his flight training had violent intentions, so the Minnesota bureau tried to get permission to search his laptop computer, but they were turned down.

Leading in that research was agent Coleen Rowley who made an explicit request for permission to search the personal rooms of Moussaoui. This request was turned down.,,

Several further attempts failed the very same way. As a result the chance of finding early evidence passed unused...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zacarias_Moussaoui

had we monitered his calls, searched his laptop,or went through his things, ,yes had we violated his civil liberties, thousands could have been saved a horrific death, ,,,,,,,,,...[/quote]

Are you ignoring my post that Al-Zarqawi was caught and released by Iraqis? There is a secret court that allows Bush to wiretap for 72 hours before asking for a warrant. He didn't even bother.
 

Disagreeable

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reader (the Second) said:
All of you are right. There's a tightrope act, preserving civil liberties and privacy while at the same time protecting the nation. In my opinion, the Intelligence agencies / FBI were so traumatized and demoralized by being slammed by Congress for violating civil liberties that they failed to share information that would have prevented 9/11. On the other hand, we have to keep an eye out to not have an unchecked Patriot Act but to renew it as appropriate, not give out a blanket approval to presidents for all eternity.

Having lived in Israel and willingly submitted to search everytime I entered the grounds of the university I attended and when I flew in and out of Israel, I understand allowing some violation of civil liberties for safety. God forbid, if suicide bombing ever comes to our shores (Canada and U.S.), things will get even more drastic.

It's quite interesting that, so far, no Republicans have come out and defended Bush in this thing.
 

Steve

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Steve wrote:
Quote:
Zacarias Moussaoui (born May 30, 1968) is a French terrorist of Moroccan descent involved in the conspiracy that resulted in the September 11, 2001 attacks. He was taken into custody by the Federal Bureau of Investigation in on August 16, 2001., ,,,

On August 16, 2000, Moussaoui was arrested by the FBI in Minnesota and charged with an immigration violation. Some agents worried that his flight training had violent intentions, so the Minnesota bureau tried to get permission to search his laptop computer, but they were turned down.


Leading in that research was agent Coleen Rowley who made an explicit request for permission to search the personal rooms of Moussaoui. This request was turned down.,,

Several further attempts failed the very same way. As a result the chance of finding early evidence passed unused...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zacarias_Moussaoui

had we monitered his calls, searched his laptop,or went through his things, ,yes had we violated his civil liberties, thousands could have been saved a horrific death, ,,,,,,,,,...
[/quote]
Is that a NO response? Dis.......

Maybe you could answer this....

Would you have violated Moussaoni's rights, and illigally searched his laptop, room, communications to stop the Sept 11, deaths?

Would you have interogated him?

Would you have tortured him?

To save thousands of innocent lives.......
 

Disagreeable

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Steve said:
Steve wrote:
Quote:
Zacarias Moussaoui (born May 30, 1968) is a French terrorist of Moroccan descent involved in the conspiracy that resulted in the September 11, 2001 attacks. He was taken into custody by the Federal Bureau of Investigation in on August 16, 2001., ,,,

On August 16, 2000, Moussaoui was arrested by the FBI in Minnesota and charged with an immigration violation. Some agents worried that his flight training had violent intentions, so the Minnesota bureau tried to get permission to search his laptop computer, but they were turned down.


Leading in that research was agent Coleen Rowley who made an explicit request for permission to search the personal rooms of Moussaoui. This request was turned down.,,

Several further attempts failed the very same way. As a result the chance of finding early evidence passed unused...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zacarias_Moussaoui

had we monitered his calls, searched his laptop,or went through his things, ,yes had we violated his civil liberties, thousands could have been saved a horrific death, Is that a NO response? Dis.......

Maybe you could answer this....

Would you have violated Moussaoni's rights, and illigally searched his laptop, room, communications to stop the Sept 11, deaths?

Would you have interogated him?

Would you have tortured him?

To save thousands of innocent lives.......

It's a ridiculous post, Steve. About par for you.

No, I would not have violated his rights and illegally searched his property. I would have pushed harder for a warrant. The secret court that issues those warrants approves 99% of the requests. All the agent had were his suspicions and that's not enough for me.

I would have followed agency guidelines on interrogration.

No, I would not have tortured him.

Would it have saved thousands of lives? I doubt it. The communications between our intelligence agences was nonexistent at that time and not much better today.

Now, what say you about the capture and release of Al-Zarqawi by Iraqis?
 

Disagreeable

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stevec said:
We are not fighting terrorists, we are fighting our mirror image.

So true. It's not an image of this country that I like to look at.
 

Steve

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Now, what say you about the capture and release of Al-Zarqawi by Iraqis?

Pretty lame when you have to hijack your own thread to provoke a response.....



This came out some time ago, ,,,,and now appears true, Had our fine military captured and held him, I am confident we would still have him, but the fledging Iraq military is going to be prone to make mistakes, But unlike those who don't support our troops and attack every mis-step,, most of US can support them even when mistakes are made...........

but to lower your self to Bashing them and, now the Iraqi's at every chance is nothing new for you,,,so both the news of his re-lease and your Bashing the troops is old news......
 

Steve

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It's a ridiculous post, Steve. About par for you.

No, I would not have violated his rights and illegally searched his property. I would have pushed harder for a warrant. The secret court that issues those warrants approves 99% of the requests. All the agent had were his suspicions and that's not enough for me.

I would have followed agency guidelines on interrogration.

No, I would not have tortured him.

Would it have saved thousands of lives?

So you would have taken the civil rights of a known terrorist over the 2823 innocent lives lost to thier terrorist act..........You truely are a scum bag....

not even deserving a response......Maybe you and ultra liberal SteveC could take your anti-military side show on the road with Hanoi Jane....
 

Mike

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COURT SAYS U.S. SPY AGENCY CAN TAP OVERSEAS MESSAGES

By DAVID BURNHAM, SPECIAL TO THE NEW YORK TIMES (NYT) 1051 words Published: November 7, 1982

A Federal appeals court has ruled that the National Security Agency may lawfully intercept messages between United States citizens and people overseas, even if there is no cause to believe the Americans are foreign agents, and then provide summaries of these messages to the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Because the National Security Agency is among the largest and most secretive intelligence agencies and because millions of electronic messages enter and leave the United States each day, lawyers familiar with the intelligence agency consider the decision to mark a significant increase in the legal authority of the Government to keep track of its citizens.

Reverses 1979 Ruling

The Oct. 21 decision of the United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit involves the Government's surveillance of a Michiganborn lawyer, Abdeen Jabara, who for many years has represented Arab-American citizens and alien residents in court. Some of his clients had been investigated by the F.B.I.

Mr. Jabara sued the F.B.I, and the National Security Agency, and in 1979 Federal District Judge Ralph M. Freeman ruled that the agency's acquisition of several of Mr. Jabara's overseas messages violated his Fourth Amendment right to be free of ''unreasonable searches and seizures.'' Last month's decision reverses that ruling.

In earlier court proceedings, the F.B.I. acknowledged that it then disseminated the information to 17 other law-enforcement or intelligence agencies and three foreign governments.

The opinion of the three-judge panel of the Court of Appeals held, ''The simple fact remains that the N.S.A. lawfully acquired Jabara's messages.''

The court ruled further that the lawyer's Fourth Amendment rights ''were not violated when summaries of his overseas telegraphic messages'' were furnished to the investigative bureau ''irrespective of whether there was reasonable cause to believe that he was a foreign agent.''
 
A

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I positively know that this was being done during the Clinton administration and authorized by the liberalist of all libs- Janet Reno...

How do you think they became aware of and stopped Al Quaeda's attempt to hijack several US & Asian flights and fly them into the sea?
 

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FBI's Illegal Carnivore Runs Amuck With Congress & Public - Government Activity

Carnivore is a name given to a system implemented by the Federal Bureau of Investigation that is analogous to wiretapping except in this case it is email that is being tapped instead of telephone conversations. It is a form of policeware.

U.S. Government officials will confirm or deny little about the physical or logical workings of Carnivore,
http://www.epic.org/privacy/carnivore/carnivorequestions.html


But it was not nearly as bad as the"ECHELON", "Clipper Chip" or was it?

So if you were worried about GW Bush Spying on international calls, then you would be really worried about the programs Clinton, Gore and Reno trompled on our rights to impliment......

or Dragonet?
http://www.epic.org/privacy/carnivore/dragonnetproposal.html
or Omnivore?
http://www.epic.org/privacy/carnivore/omnivoreproposal.html

When you start loking it is amazing how much Clinton, Gore, and Reno were spying on US.....why weren't the liberals whining then about our privacy?

oops they were already investigating Clinton's dirty little secret in Nov. of 2000......
http://www.epic.org/privacy/carnivore/jud_comm.html
 

Disagreeable

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Oldtimer said:
I positively know that this was being done during the Clinton administration and authorized by the liberalist of all libs- Janet Reno...

How do you think they became aware of and stopped Al Quaeda's attempt to hijack several US & Asian flights and fly them into the sea?

No, you know no such thing. This is what Clinton signed: http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo/eo-12949.htm

It says "Section 1. Pursuant to section 302(a)(1) [50 U.S.C. 1822(a)] of the [Foreign Intelligence Surveillance] Act, the Attorney General is authorized to approve physical searches, without a court order, to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of up to one year, if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that section."

That section requires the Attorney General to certify is the search will not involve “the premises, information, material, or property of a United States person.” That means U.S. citizens or anyone inside of the United States. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00001822----000-.html

As for Carter, he signed this "1-101. Pursuant to Section 102(a)(1) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1802(a)), the Attorney General is authorized to approve electronic surveillance to acquire foreign intelligence information without a court order, but only if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that Section.
http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo12139.htm

And that section says: "there is no substantial likelihood that the surveillance will acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party;"http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00001802----000-.html

You guys can spin all you want, but Bush has assured Americans that our privacy was safe because warrents were need to wiretap our conversations, all the while, running this secret program that does listen on American's phone conversations, emails, etc. Neither Carter nor Clinton did any such thing.
 
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Disagreeable said:
Oldtimer said:
I positively know that this was being done during the Clinton administration and authorized by the liberalist of all libs- Janet Reno...

How do you think they became aware of and stopped Al Quaeda's attempt to hijack several US & Asian flights and fly them into the sea?

No, you know no such thing. This is what Clinton signed: http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo/eo-12949.htm

It says "Section 1. Pursuant to section 302(a)(1) [50 U.S.C. 1822(a)] of the [Foreign Intelligence Surveillance] Act, the Attorney General is authorized to approve physical searches, without a court order, to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of up to one year, if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that section."

That section requires the Attorney General to certify is the search will not involve “the premises, information, material, or property of a United States person.” That means U.S. citizens or anyone inside of the United States. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00001822----000-.html

As for Carter, he signed this "1-101. Pursuant to Section 102(a)(1) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1802(a)), the Attorney General is authorized to approve electronic surveillance to acquire foreign intelligence information without a court order, but only if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that Section.
http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo12139.htm

And that section says: "there is no substantial likelihood that the surveillance will acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party;"http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00001802----000-.html

You guys can spin all you want, but Bush has assured Americans that our privacy was safe because warrents were need to wiretap our conversations, all the while, running this secret program that does listen on American's phone conversations, emails, etc. Neither Carter nor Clinton did any such thing.

Dis- I don't care what Clinton signed-- they were doing it... I saw it...Janet Reno hamstrung the FBI and CIA and all our intelligence agencies terribly (which probably contributed heavily to the fact 9/11 occurred) , but they were still monitoring calls originating from or going to a foreign country.....
 

Disagreeable

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Oldtimer said:
Disagreeable said:
Oldtimer said:
I positively know that this was being done during the Clinton administration and authorized by the liberalist of all libs- Janet Reno...

How do you think they became aware of and stopped Al Quaeda's attempt to hijack several US & Asian flights and fly them into the sea?

No, you know no such thing. This is what Clinton signed: http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo/eo-12949.htm

It says "Section 1. Pursuant to section 302(a)(1) [50 U.S.C. 1822(a)] of the [Foreign Intelligence Surveillance] Act, the Attorney General is authorized to approve physical searches, without a court order, to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of up to one year, if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that section."

That section requires the Attorney General to certify is the search will not involve “the premises, information, material, or property of a United States person.” That means U.S. citizens or anyone inside of the United States. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00001822----000-.html

As for Carter, he signed this "1-101. Pursuant to Section 102(a)(1) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1802(a)), the Attorney General is authorized to approve electronic surveillance to acquire foreign intelligence information without a court order, but only if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that Section.
http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo12139.htm

And that section says: "there is no substantial likelihood that the surveillance will acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party;"http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00001802----000-.html

You guys can spin all you want, but Bush has assured Americans that our privacy was safe because warrents were need to wiretap our conversations, all the while, running this secret program that does listen on American's phone conversations, emails, etc. Neither Carter nor Clinton did any such thing.

Dis- I don't care what Clinton signed-- they were doing it... I saw it...Janet Reno hamstrung the FBI and CIA and all our intelligence agencies terribly (which probably contributed heavily to the fact 9/11 occurred) , but they were still monitoring calls originating from or going to a foreign country.....

:roll: Requests for wiretaps are approved every day. What Bush is doing is wiretapping without a warrant, even though a special court has been set up for his use. And all the while, he's been assuring Americans that that they can't be wiretapped without a warrant. I find that disturbing.
 

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