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SRM and ignorance running rampant!

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bse-tester

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Here is a PM I sent to TAM - I had to share this with the rest of you as it sort of P O'd me somewhat and folks, I do not post this to slight TAM in any way but I do certainly post it to show the level of ignorance that is out there regarding politically sponsered statements and how many people actually are sucked in by them.


bse-tester wrote:
SRM removal doesn't make beef or anything else safer!! The rogue prions are found throughout the animal and are present in blood, meat, sinue, brain, liver, lungs - throughout the entire body of the infected animal period! We detect prions in urine with our test and in order for it to be found in urine, it has to be borne throughout the cardiovascular system (blood0 and thusly, the prions travel throughout the entire body and sure, they do concentrate in the brain, the spinal cord, the yes and lymphatic system, but that does not mean they are not present throughout the entire animal. So please, do some research before you fall victim to the standard lies that most governments put out to appease the masses. In science, we do not have the luxury of being able to discount everything to suit a political effort.

TAM replied:

Sorry but I tend to take the word of the OIE expert Scientists over the word of someone that has a vested interest in selling a test that no Government has yet to approve for detection of BSE. The OIE recommendation to Canada and the US state.

the Implementation of an SRM ban is the MOST critical and Valuable central measure for public health protection and food safety and is fully endorsed by the review team. An SRM ban would also reduce the risk of infectivity in animal feed. until you have the OIE experts believeing in your theory don't bother PMing me again.
 

bse-tester

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Here is a part of an OIE report that is somewhat old (2001) but it is interesting. I thought I would post it to share with those of you who feel as I do that SRM removal is a bit of a joke.

Joint WHO/FAO/OIE Technical Consultation on
BSE, Public Health and Trade


Background
On 21December 2000, WHO organized a joint informal meeting of World Health Organization (WHO), Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) and the Office International des Epizooties (OIE) with twelve consultants and with the participation of the World Trade Organization (WTO) and the European Commission (EC). The meeting discussed two issues which were clearly emerging for the public regarding Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE) safety – ‘what is safe to eat?’ and ‘is enough being done to protect human populations from exposure to BSE?’ The goal of the meeting was to determine if there was sufficient new science for a formal consultation, with a view toward providing updated information to assist our member countries and the public, particularly in non-EU countries.
The meeting participants concluded that while there are no new breakthroughs in science, there is a much higher level of awareness of the issues and high levels of concern from the public, and that these forces are driving country needs for evidence-based, independent information and advice to create good policy.
Several specific problems were identified:
- Major studies on the distribution of transmissible spongiform encephalopathy (TSE) infectivity in various tissues are under way, and although results have been continuously published in the literature, there is a need for review and clearer communication to the public. We would need to review this evidence to decide if there was need to alter the current WHO table on the distribution of infectivity. There is also a need to review abattoir and slaughter practices in more detail, particularly international practices, as this determines the potential for cross contamination of different parts of the carcass.
- New testing programs for BSE have proven valuable in supplementing surveillance systems for BSE. Strong concerns were expressed about the pros and cons of mass testing – particularly whether testing will lead to safer food.
- There are a number of mathematical projections about the future of the variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (vCJD) and BSE epidemics, with broad estimates. Some are alarming. It was felt there was a need for a critical review of these studies and clearer communication of their meaning.
- Managing risk from BSE and vCJD is problematic with a number of issues including actual national/regional variation in risk levels and national/regional variation in policies.
- There is a need to look more closely at the implications of global trade – how food is exchanged across borders, how animal feed based on meat-and-bone meal (MBM) moves around the world, how rendered materials are used and moved around the world, how meat preparations containing risk materials and how live animals are sold around the world, and to consider the potential impacts on countries without BSE cases or vCJD cases and without surveillance capacity. As the principle route for transmission of BSE is contaminated animal feed, this subject requires close scrutiny.
- A number of ‘risk assessments’ have been conducted, but some countries cannot quickly find the core information they need to determine if they are at risk of BSE, or if they are importing foods with a risk of causing vCJD.
- Getting updated information on the potential presence of BSE in sheep, and about BSE exposure to other animal species is also necessary. Although there are, as yet, no cases of BSE identified in native flocks, the issue is critically important at the global level.
- Risk communication was specifically identified as a problem area.
A Joint Technical Consultation is warranted to pull this information together. We will work towards clear and workable recommendations for countries, particularly developing countries, to:
- protect their human populations from vCJD
- protect their livestock populations from BSE, and
- protect their industries from trade restrictions and their repercussions
Goals of a Joint Technical Consultation
The principle goal of the consultation will be to provide better information to countries (especially those that don’t have experience with BSE and vCJD) that require information to help them make their own risk assessment and determine if they may have already introduced or at risk of introducing the BSE agent. Those countries that do not have BSE in their native cattle populations require information to help them identify risks for BSE in other countries, notably those that, knowingly or unknowingly, could lead to the undesired importation of either BSE or vCJD risks. In addition, it is important from the international perspective that countries are prevented from exporting materials which they do not consume within their own boundaries and that could either seed BSE, or could cause vCJD. To this end, the conditions which should result in the prevention of exports from a country will also be reviewed.
A secondary goal is to provide a forum for the review of some of the most compelling problems in BSE control internationally. The Joint Technical Consultation will discuss and synthesize current knowledge on pathogenesis, epidemiology, distribution, likely course of the epidemics, prevention and control of BSE/vCJD.
The key policy and communications issues are as follows:
1. Reducing the risk for BSE and vCJD – extensive international experience has accrued regarding the most significant activities to reduce the risk of BSE or vCJD; policies to minimize human exposure to BSE have been introduced (and evaluated) in many countries.
2. Global risk and global need for action - there is a global risk of BSE due to trade in live animals and certain bovine-tissue containing products; the global risk assessment will include information about global trade practices with the aim of highlighting potential high risk activities.
3. Risk assessment for vCJD and BSE –It is essential that countries should not wait until their first case of vCJD or BSE before acting; there are some hypothesized risks in trade in meat and meat products, live animals and animal feed; countries without known BSE cases must conduct risk assessments and may require surveillance systems for BSE and vCJD.
4. Communication of Risk – one of the largest problems has been the difficulties in communicating risks in the face of incomplete knowledge; the process of development of public policy through iterative processes has undermined public confidence.
Format
The first two days will be spent in plenary presentations, with time periods for questions. The second day and a half will be spent alternating small working groups with joint sessions, ending with a joint session summarizing recommendations.
Proposed working groups (DRAFT)
1. Risk Assessment
- Define ‘safe to eat’ and/or ‘not safe to eat’
- What are the essential questions to be answered by a country to decide if it is importing BSE/vCJD risk? What are the essential activities to undertake to avoid an internal BSE/vCJD risk? Include – feed practices, rendering practices, slaughter practices etc.
2. Risk Management – International
- Spreading of BSE internationally – how can this be prevented? Includes discussions of international trade in bovines, animal feed, specified risk materials (SRM), meat and bone meal (MBM); consideration of export restrictions, animal feed bans, mechanically recovered meat (MRM) bans; considerations of prevalence of BSE in country if relevant
3. Risk Management - National
- Controlling BSE nationally – Methods of surveillance and cost implications, herd cull vs. cohort cull, etc.
- Condemned materials – MBM storage, alternative uses, environmental contamination; balancing risks
- Testing for BSE – Safety or Surveillance?
4. Risk of BSE in sheep and other animal species; scenarios
5. Risk communication – what are the key messages? Include discussion of epidemic projections; what are the consumer requirements and how do we fill the requirements for information from consumers?

Venue
OIE Headquarters
Paris, France
Date
June 11-14, 2001
Participation
By invitation only;
- Subject area specialists
- NGOs and representatives of stakeholder organizations - e.g. renderers associations, consumers associations, other International Organizations
- Representatives of regions and countries, including participants from developing countries
- National Public Health, Food and Animal Health authorities
Information Dissemination (Draft)
Before
Web site postings, background papers and information package, press communications.
After
Press conference; Technical report including the presentations
 

rkaiser

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Could you please share with us your thoughts on the Prion vs. the Misfolded Prion bse tester.

You speak of rouge prions, which are these - the misfolded ones.

Do you feel that prions in their natural state have a purpose in the body of an animal or not?


Are you saying that you have identified misfolded prions in muscle tissue and that you have proof that these prions got to these areas by means of feed transmission, and digestion, or some other infectious way?
 

bse-tester

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RKaiser wrote:

Could you please share with us your thoughts on the Prion vs. the Misfolded Prion bse tester.

You speak of rouge prions, which are these - the misfolded ones.

Do you feel that prions in their natural state have a purpose in the body of an animal or not?


Are you saying that you have identified misfolded prions in muscle tissue and that you have proof that these prions got to these areas by means of feed transmission, and digestion, or some other infectious way?

Randy, the rogue prion term is one that I use to describe the PrPsc - the scrapie-isoform and deadly misfolded prion. As for what I think of normal prions vs misfolded prions, I will use the human example and say that all of us play host to normal prions. They are in us from the time of birth until the day we die. As a normal prion protein the reason for them being in our bodies has been the topic of discussion for decades. So what is its role? Normal Prion Protein - PrP- is derived from PrP33-35 KDa precurser protien coded by a normal gene assigned to human chromosome 20. There is only a single PrP gene, expressed to equal extent in normal and infected humans, giving rise to the same primary translation product in normal and scrapie-infected brain. A comparative backbone amino-acid sequence of precurser proteins, a 254 amino-acids protein, is similar to that sequenced from other mammalian species. There are different amino acids at some places in the sequence in different animal speicies. Once it was realised that the PrP was derived, molecular genetics entered onto the scene and a search began for mutations in the corresponding PrP human gene among infected families.

Misfolded prions in muscle tissue - Randy, there have been a number of studies done that show conclusive evidence of PrPsc in all tissues of the body. Concentrations of the PrPsc has varied from one tissue set to another but this has also been affected by the sampling taken at different times thoughout the incubation period and by the size of the tissue sample taken. During stduies doen in England and France, PrPsc was found to be in spleen, lymph nodes and salivary gland within 4 weeks of the detection od the presence of PrPsc. This increased to a plateau of concentration of 10-4 to 10-5 titre of infectivity in these tissues during the first quarter of the clinical disease. Most of the other tissues, including bone marrow, intestines, placenta and muscles in some of the studies, have been shown to contain an infective dose of approximately 10-3. The scrapie agent has sometimes been found in spinal fluid. Blood from affected sheep has also occasionally produced cases of scrapie suggesting a brief viraemic phase (virus in blood) during the incubation period. You might also be interest in knowing that studies have been done on the soil contaminated by animals known to be carrying the misfolded PrPsc. Sheep that were samples for PrPsc were also found to have sheep stomach-worm and these worms also were found to be carrying the deadly PrPsc which conclusively demonstrates that the parasite can also become infected while in the intestinal tract and/or stomach and can easily pass the disease to other animals when excreted through the normal manner and ingested by another (Hourrigan et al 1979). Although this can be argued as a remote possibility, it has been shown to be entirely possible. People invaribly do not think of parasitic infection routing for such incidious diseases. We tend to think of Malaria or Typhoid or some obscure swamp disease in such a manner but not BSE. I trust this will answer your questions.
 

Tam

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I see PRIVATE MESSAGE means nothing to you BSE Tester. But I still stand on the comment don't bother PRIVATE Messaging me again if I want to read your stuff I will read it in the Public forum just like everyone else. Then I will know my response will be for public viewing.
 

bse-tester

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Actually TAM I do like the concept of "Private Messaging." I do not however, like to receive the kind of remarks that border on insulting from those I PM. You happen to be the only one that has pissed me off on this board and for that I chose to share your comments. If you really want to engage in that kind of rhetoric, then do it elsewhere as I have no time to waste on people like you who close their mind to what just might be the truth and feel that their opinion is the only one to listen to.

Having said that, I will be glad to share information with you on the open forum and would hope that you would take it for what it's worth and even perhaps, do some due-diligence to see what is out there to support it or to hammer it. But to blatantly throw a comment that was not only untrue but extremely unfair in light of my already being on the public record regarding the profits that my company will hopefully make and how they will utlimately be used, is beyond words to me. Frankly, I am sick and tired of attitudes that seem to think that money is the only reason for existing in life and you seem to follow that path as indicated by your comments.
 

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bse-tester said:
Actually TAM I do like the concept of "Private Messaging." I do not however, like to receive the kind of remarks that border on insulting from those I PM. You happen to be the only one that has p****d me off on this board and for that I chose to share your comments. If you really want to engage in that kind of rhetoric, then do it elsewhere as I have no time to waste on people like you who close their mind to what just might be the truth and feel that their opinion is the only one to listen to.

Having said that, I will be glad to share information with you on the open forum and would hope that you would take it for what it's worth and even perhaps, do some due-diligence to see what is out there to support it or to hammer it. But to blatantly throw a comment that was not only untrue but extremely unfair in light of my already being on the public record regarding the profits that my company will hopefully make and how they will utlimately be used, is beyond words to me. Frankly, I am sick and tired of attitudes that seem to think that money is the only reason for existing in life and you seem to follow that path as indicated by your comments.
Who asked you to waste you time on PM ing me and when was the last time you and I had a discussion on the public forum. I have no Idea why you singled me out as I don't even remember that last time I actually posted to you So how could I have Pi__ed you off. If you don't like the fact I tend to believe the OIE that is to bad but PRIVATE MEANS PRIVATE. You stepped over the line and I hope anyone that responsed to one of your PM's is warned that it may just become public viewing material.
 

Tam

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Oldtimer said:
New broom this week- Eh Tam... :???: :wink: :lol: :lol:
Oldtimer if you recieved a PM that you didn't agree with and you replied to the poster would you expect to see your PRIVATE MESSAGE on the PUBLIC FORUM. What does PRIVATE MEAN TO YOU? To me it means PRIVATE NOT to be seen by everyone on the WEB.
 

Mike

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Tam wrote:
Sorry but I tend to take the word of the OIE expert Scientists over the word of someone that has a vested interest in selling a test that no Government has yet to approve for detection of BSE.

Tam, it might interest you to know that there are SEVERAL Professors and Doctors who the OIE consults with regularly that have a "vested" interest in BSE tests.
 
A

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Tam said:
Oldtimer said:
New broom this week- Eh Tam... :???: :wink: :lol: :lol:
Oldtimer if you recieved a PM that you didn't agree with and you replied to the poster would you expect to see your PRIVATE MESSAGE on the PUBLIC FORUM. What does PRIVATE MEAN TO YOU? To me it means PRIVATE NOT to be seen by everyone on the WEB.

Doesn't fly as good as the old one-Eh :???: :lol:
 

Econ101

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Tam said:
Oldtimer said:
New broom this week- Eh Tam... :???: :wink: :lol: :lol:
Oldtimer if you recieved a PM that you didn't agree with and you replied to the poster would you expect to see your PRIVATE MESSAGE on the PUBLIC FORUM. What does PRIVATE MEAN TO YOU? To me it means PRIVATE NOT to be seen by everyone on the WEB.

Maybe you should watch what you say in private as well as on this forum, Tam. Do you always say things privately that you don't publically? Maybe you should get your mind together both in public and private.
 

Tam

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Mike said:
Tam wrote:
Sorry but I tend to take the word of the OIE expert Scientists over the word of someone that has a vested interest in selling a test that no Government has yet to approve for detection of BSE.

Tam, it might interest you to know that there are SEVERAL Professors and Doctors who the OIE consults with regularly that have a "vested" interest in BSE tests.

Good then they should know about testing and beable to tell the OIE what they think of BSE tester's theories when they reach the OIE. But until the I will tend to believe like most countries that the OIE is there to protect the health of the consumer and when they say Implementation of an SRM ban is the MOST critical and Valuable central measure for public health protection and food safety I'm not going to say they don't know what they are talking about.
By the way Mike how do you like the fact the BSE tester posted a PRIVATE MESSAGE on the PUBLIC forum without asking to do it? Would you care to see some of your PMs on the PUBLIC forum.
 

Tam

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Econ101 said:
Tam said:
Oldtimer said:
New broom this week- Eh Tam... :???: :wink: :lol: :lol:
Oldtimer if you recieved a PM that you didn't agree with and you replied to the poster would you expect to see your PRIVATE MESSAGE on the PUBLIC FORUM. What does PRIVATE MEAN TO YOU? To me it means PRIVATE NOT to be seen by everyone on the WEB.

Maybe you should watch what you say in private as well as on this forum, Tam. Do you always say things privately that you don't publically? Maybe you should get your mind together both in public and private.

Yes and I think most people do say things in private that they wouldn't say in public but that is beside the fact BSE tester took a PRIVATE comment without permission and posted and that is wrong PRIVATE MEANS PRIVATE and I have learned one thing here Don't reply to BSE TESTER
 

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I guess TAM, I should try to diffuse this situation by offering you an apology for publishing your PM. You are absolutely right when you say that "Private" should mean exactly that! One thing though, do you think it is ok to insult people while hiding behind that door? I sure don't! So again, if I offended you in any way it was not intentional. You, on the other hand, went out of your way to do that to me. Having said that, I will publicly apologize to you for posting your comments to me and hopefully, that will allow you to move on and not take this as personally as I took your comments. One might say that I have already put this issue aside. Can you do the same? It is far easier to agree to disagree than to wage war.
 

rkaiser

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Start a new thread about sucking your thumb Tam.

This site is for folk with thick skin only.

BSE-tester - I am not going to argue that PrPsc (I will continue to use the term misfolded prions if you don't mind) will not show up in muscle tissue etc., but your simple explaination about the stomach worm with misfolded prions in his system still does not explain transmission. The metal arguement could explain that little theory just as well.

The words you tried to decribe the role of a normal functioning Prion are truely nothing bse-teaser. If there has not been enough reseach to give any more explaination than this then following a THEORY of feed transmission through normal digestion is premature and even simplistic.

If you care to try again my question stands -

Are you saying that you have identified misfolded prions in muscle tissue and that you have proof that these prions got to these areas by means of feed transmission, and digestion, or some other infectious way?
 

bse-tester

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TAM wrote:
Who asked you to waste you time on PM ing me and when was the last time you and I had a discussion on the public forum. I have no Idea why you singled me out as I don't even remember that last time I actually posted to you

Just to refresh your memory TAM, you actually PM'd me last July 3 - no, I am not going to share it here - wherein you wished me good luck on getting the test validated. Again twice on July 4th last year wherein you discussed the potential for Government to be full of fools - that was the title of your PM "Fools." And finally, this last time wherein you slapped me with the money and vested interest crap! So TAM, which is it going to be, your version of the truth or the real truth? I will say no more on this matter other than to suggest you climb down off that high horse and get into valuable discussion.
 

bse-tester

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RKaiser wrote:

Are you saying that you have identified misfolded prions in muscle tissue and that you have proof that these prions got to these areas by means of feed transmission, and digestion, or some other infectious way?

Randy, two things: 1. The stomach worm is actually a good example of how the agent PrPsc can and does actually enter the system of sheep. It can be argued that this form of transmission of the agent is rather a long shot but it happens regardless of the odds. I know you do not like that example so I shall give you another. Mice, fed infected material - ground oats soaked in scrapie infected blood were found to have clinical symptoms of PrPsc infectivity at 178 days in our first study. Muscle tissue taken from the neck, middle back and thighs - including fatty tissue - showed high doses of PrPsc. Brain and spinal tissue from the same mouse showed high incidence of PrPsc. Muscle & Brain tissue taken from this mouse and homogenated was used to inoculate four of the five other mice - 2 of which died within 10 weeks of inoculate and 2 of the remaining three showed clinical symptoms of PrPsc infectivity at 140 and 163 days respectively. The fifth mouse was fed an homogenate of muscle tissue, taken from the bodies of the two mice that succumbed at 140 and 163 days and it developed the tell-tale symptoms of PrPsc infectivity at 193 days following inoculation. Of course, the original mouse contracted the PrPsc through ingestion and normal means of digestive absorbtion, whereas the others were inoculated. I do understand that you may discount those which were inoculated but you have to understand - Randy, I am sure you do - that the vast majority of studies are done in this manner. Our test was used to identify all incidences of PrPsc infectivity. This study has yet to be published.
 

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bse-tester said:
TAM wrote:
Who asked you to waste you time on PM ing me and when was the last time you and I had a discussion on the public forum. I have no Idea why you singled me out as I don't even remember that last time I actually posted to you

Just to refresh your memory TAM, you actually PM'd me last July 3 - no, I am not going to share it here - wherein you wished me good luck on getting the test validated. Again twice on July 4th last year wherein you discussed the potential for Government to be full of fools - that was the title of your PM "Fools." And finally, this last time wherein you slapped me with the money and vested interest crap! So TAM, which is it going to be, your version of the truth or the real truth? I will say no more on this matter other than to suggest you climb down off that high horse and get into valuable discussion.

POSTED AT 6:16
One might say that I have already put this issue aside. Can you do the same?
Posted at 6:53
I will say no more on this matter other than to suggest you climb down off that high horse and get into valuable discussion
So much for putting it behind you BSE. and so Much for the meaning of Private messaging when you refer to even more Private messages in your second post. That said The PM's you are refering to I doubt invited any further PM's now when I haven't been in any of your current discussions on the PUBLIC forum.
 

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Mike,Would you care to see some of your PMs on the PUBLIC forum.

Go ahead and put them up there Tam. I don't care.

Tell you what, let's start a little game and post some PM's on the Public Forum without names and see if we can guess who wrote them. :wink:
 

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