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Steve, been following this Conspiracy Theory?

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
Recent, “near conclusive” evidence reports that MH-370 (M9-MRO) was actually hijacked raising the possibility that aircraft parts from M9-MRO could have been salvaged, altered, re-painted and used to create the crash scene for MH-17 (M9-MRD).

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/20/wrong-aircraft-identified-as-malaysia-flt-mh-17-fuels-doubts/

and now Russia claims...

Russia Says Has Photos Of Ukraine Deploying BUK Missiles In East, Radar Proof Of Warplanes In MH17 Vicinity

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-21/russia-says-has-photos-ukraine-deploying-buk-missiles-east-rader-proof-warplanes-mh1
 

Steve

Well-known member
no,.

I had heard early claims the bodies were old and decaying when they crashed..

obviously Russia is going to try to blame the Ukraine... I am sure the US intelligence has a pretty good idea of what happened and who did it..

Like TWA 800 ,.. I doubt we will ever get a definitive answer on this one...
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
Steve said:
no,.

I had heard early claims the bodies were old and decaying when they crashed..

obviously Russia is going to try to blame the Ukraine... I am sure the US intelligence has a pretty good idea of what happened and who did it..

Like TWA 800 ,.. I doubt we will ever get a definitive answer on this one...

If the US has any evidence, then maybe they should produce it, and not just statements, that are only to produce emotional reactions.

Appears the Russians have tangible evidence and we already know that the Ukrainians have BUK SAMs, are trained more so in their use, than the rebels.

To be honest...I don't trust the obama administration when it comes to foreign policy, or World happenings.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
hypocritexposer said:
Steve said:
no,.

I had heard early claims the bodies were old and decaying when they crashed..

obviously Russia is going to try to blame the Ukraine... I am sure the US intelligence has a pretty good idea of what happened and who did it..

Like TWA 800 ,.. I doubt we will ever get a definitive answer on this one...

If the US has any evidence, then maybe they should produce it, and not just statements, that are only to produce emotional reactions.

Appears the Russians have tangible evidence and we already know that the Ukrainians have BUK SAMs, are trained more so in their use, than the rebels.

To be honest...I don't trust the obama administration when it comes to foreign policy, or World happenings.

So why does almost all the Repubs and a good share of Dems in Congress all want Obama to send military arms and assistance to the Ukranians :???:

I think this guys video (wish I could speak Russian)- and posts about how they shot down the plane (mistaking it as a cargo plane) - then deleting it once it was learned it was a passenger plane - and the fact they are the same ones now keeping investigators from the site speak highly toward it being the Rebels...


Pro-Russian separatist commander Igor ‘The Terrible’ Strelkov allegedly appears on mobile phone video of MH17 crash saying: ‘That was a blast’

RUSSIAN rebel military chief Igor ‘The Terrible’ Strelkov has allegedly been filmed in a mobile phone video of MH17 plane as it crashed, gleefully bragging “That was a blast — look at the smoke!”.

Strelkov is alleged to have later penned a triumphant war cry on Twitter, saying: “We warned you — do not fly in ‘our sky’.”


A sickening mobile phone video posted online shows a pall of black smoke billowing over the crash site as three rebels provide an excited commentary.

The extraordinary footage — which was apparently filmed by the shooters themselves — charts the terrible final moments of the doomed airliner.

Their camera does not zoom in enough to see the plummeting plane in the sky, but the rebels’ voices can be heard talking happily of “black spots — these are the parts flying”, suggesting it fell to earth in several pieces.

A voice believed to be that of Strelkov — dubbed “Igor the Terrible” — announces: “The plane was hit!” He adds: “Look at those black spots, these are the parts flying … it was a blast … look, look, black smoke!”

Another rebel, possibly referring to the missile system, laughs and says: “It was worth bringing this thing, wasn’t it? It was not in vain.”

None of the rebels can be seen in their horrific film, but it appears to be genuine because at the time only they seemed to be aware of what was happening.

Ordinary life carries on in the village where they are standing. A car drives past and an unsuspecting villager is seen wandering past the camera.

Shortly after the passenger plane was downed, Strelkov — seen smirking in propaganda photos — tweeted a boastful message claiming responsibility.

At the time, he apparently believed he had shot down an Antonov-26 military plane of the Ukrainian air force, saying it landed near a mine named Progress.

His chilling message read: “In the area Torez we just hit down An-26, it’s lying somewhere in the mine ‘Progress’.

“We warned you — do not fly in ‘our sky’. And here is the video confirmation of the ‘bird dropping’.

“Bird fell near the mine, the residential sector was not disturbed. Civilians are not injured.” Later as the horror became clear, the tweet was deleted.


Far from civilians being unharmed, accounts began to emerge of bodies falling out of the stricken plane over the village of Rassypnaya. Residents said charred and naked bodies lay in the streets.

Strelkov, who minutes earlier had been boasting about his “military” success, seems to have gone to ground once he realised his catastrophic mistake.

A man of mystery with at least three names, Strelkov is believed by Ukraine to be a serving colonel in the Main Intelligence Directorate (GRU) of the Russian army — a charge firmly denied by Moscow.

He commands pro-Russian forces now in control of Sloviansk in eastern Ukraine, but his enemies suspect he is a direct agent of the Kremlin.

The secret service in Kiev claims his real identity is Igor Girkin. He has an ex-wife and children still living in Moscow, and his Russian passport number and address in Moscow have been published by media in Ukraine.

http://www.news.com.au/world/prorussian-separatist-commander-igor-the-terrible-strelkov-allegedly-appears-on-mobile-phone-video-of-mh17-crash-saying-that-was-a-blast/story-fndir2ev-1226993406156
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
So you also believe the rebels claim that the bodies were not fresh, correct, OT?

So are the Russian claims of the Ukrainian fighter jet true? Is that what the Rebel thought was shot out of the sky?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
hypocritexposer said:
So you also believe the rebels claim that the bodies were not fresh, correct, OT?

Nope- I think it didn't take very long laying out there blown apart and you could easily call them not "fresh"....
Without forensic autopsies they never will know... And the longer they lay/laid there the more evidence was lost.... (as well as their valuables and credit cards)...
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
Good work OT, you just proved that the rebels did not intentionally down the civilian aircraft. And Putin can't be held responsible, any more so than obama, for providing weapons to ISIS and the death of civilians.

"It could have been a tragedy"
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
hypocritexposer said:
Good work OT, you just proved that the rebels did not intentionally down the civilian aircraft. And Putin can't be held responsible, any more so than obama, for providing weapons to ISIS and the death of civilians.

"It could have been a tragedy"

I think they intentionally downed an aircraft- BUT I think they believed it was a Ukranian cargo plane like the ones they had shot down previously- and shot this one down accidentally by mistake...

Not too much different then when our guided missile cruiser mistook an Iranian passenger plane (Flight 655) for a warplane and shot it down in 1988...

A tragedy for sure- but nothing to start a war over!
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
hypocritexposer said:
Good work OT, you just proved that the rebels did not intentionally down the civilian aircraft. And Putin can't be held responsible, any more so than obama, for providing weapons to ISIS and the death of civilians.

"It could have been a tragedy"

I think they intentionally downed an aircraft- BUT I think they believed it was a Ukranian cargo plane like the ones they had shot down previously- and shot this one down accidentally by mistake...

Not too much different then when our guided missile cruiser mistook an Iranian passenger plane (Flight 655) for a warplane and shot it down in 1988...

A tragedy for sure- but nothing to start a war over!

But, is it possible that the Ukrainians shot down what they thought was a Russian plane?

They have the exact missile system. And it has not been proven that the rebels do.

If one side, might have, the unproven means, and one does have the proven means, what are the probabilities, that it was the side with the means, that made the mistake?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
hypocritexposer said:
Oldtimer said:
hypocritexposer said:
Good work OT, you just proved that the rebels did not intentionally down the civilian aircraft. And Putin can't be held responsible, any more so than obama, for providing weapons to ISIS and the death of civilians.

"It could have been a tragedy"

I think they intentionally downed an aircraft- BUT I think they believed it was a Ukranian cargo plane like the ones they had shot down previously- and shot this one down accidentally by mistake...

Not too much different then when our guided missile cruiser mistook an Iranian passenger plane (Flight 655) for a warplane and shot it down in 1988...

A tragedy for sure- but nothing to start a war over!

But, is it possible that the Ukrainians shot down what they thought was a Russian plane?

They have the exact missile system. And it has not been proven that the rebels do.

If one side, might have, the unproven means, and one does have the proven means, what are the probabilities, that it was the side with the means, that made the mistake?

Then why haven't the Rebels welcomed the investigators with open arms :???: Instead they have not kept the incident scene secure, allowed looting of the dead's belongings, not properly moved many of the bodies ,packed off much of the evidence and not allowed investigators in...
If truly innocent they should be welcoming an international investigation not hindering it....
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
hypocritexposer said:
Oldtimer said:
I think they intentionally downed an aircraft- BUT I think they believed it was a Ukranian cargo plane like the ones they had shot down previously- and shot this one down accidentally by mistake...

Not too much different then when our guided missile cruiser mistook an Iranian passenger plane (Flight 655) for a warplane and shot it down in 1988...

A tragedy for sure- but nothing to start a war over!

But, is it possible that the Ukrainians shot down what they thought was a Russian plane?

They have the exact missile system. And it has not been proven that the rebels do.

If one side, might have, the unproven means, and one does have the proven means, what are the probabilities, that it was the side with the means, that made the mistake?

Then why haven't the Rebels welcomed the investigators with open arms :???: Instead they have not kept the incident scene secure, allowed looting of the dead's belongings, not properly moved many of the bodies ,packed off much of the evidence and not allowed investigators in...
If truly innocent they should be welcoming an international investigation not hindering it....

they turned over the black boxes to the Malaysians, after securing assurances of not being railroaded...

Didn't media hinder investigations by rummaging through luggage? How did they get there, if the rebels were not allowing anyone in?

For an ex-sharriff, you really suck at investigations and not coming to a conclusion before all evidence is collected.

What's the Tea Party platform when it comes to illegal immigration?
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
Then why haven't the Rebels welcomed the investigators with open arms :???: Instead they have not kept the incident scene secure, allowed looting of the dead's belongings, not properly moved many of the bodies ,packed off much of the evidence and not allowed investigators in...
If truly innocent they should be welcoming an international investigation not hindering it....

where did you hear that OT?


Dutch forensic team 'impressed' by work at MH17 crash site

21 July 2014 Last updated at 18:06 BST

The leader of a Dutch forensics team has said he was impressed with the work done at the site of the MH17 airliner crash in Ukraine.

Forensics expert Peter Van Vliet said: "I think they did a hell of a job in a hell of a place".

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28405448
 

loomixguy

Well-known member
Nobody, I mean NOBODY, has more " crimnal investigation experience" than Uncle Bad Touch. With 137 years as a LEO, I'm quite frankly surprised that his boy hasn't called him in on this investigation. Those pesky "ventures" must be getting in the way again.
 

Steve

Well-known member
hypocritexposer said:
But, is it possible that the Ukrainians shot down what they thought was a Russian plane?

They have the exact missile system. And it has not been proven that the rebels do.

If one side, might have, the unproven means, and one does have the proven means, what are the probabilities, that it was the side with the means, that made the mistake?

not really.. they have air traffic control and would know the plane was flying from Europe towards Russia...

additionally the operators would be more inclined to use the system as it was designed.. with the ability to identify planes..



The missile operators sit inside a very cramped launch vehicle looking at a basic radar screen that shows the various objects the system is tracking. But without the larger network, that information has very little in the way of context. That explains why its operators may not have had enough information to distinguish the civilian airliner from a military threat. “This definitely could have been an error,” Zaloga says.

Being a Soviet design, the user interface is fairly simple, says Michael Pietrucha, a former F-4G and F-15E electronic warfare officer and expert on air defenses. Pietrucha says he trained with German forces operating a similar Russian-built system during the 1990s.

Pietrucha says that the Buk variant that is likely to have been operated by the rebels might have been especially unable to distinguish between civilian and military air traffic because of a quirk related to aircraft transponders. The transponder is a device that broadcasts an aircraft’s identity when a radar “interrogates” it for information.

my understanding is that it takes a battery of three to correctly identify aircraft,.. and isn't that hard to operate,



But to function correctly, an SA-11 launcher, also known as a Buk, is supposed to be connected to a central radar command — as opposed to acting alone — to be certain of exactly what kind of aircraft it is shooting at.

The Ukraine has that system,.. so if they shot it down it was an intentional act, sanctioned (or covered up by our government)

so without proof,.. (facts) or a better knowledge of what you are talking about you insinuation is insulting..
 

Steve

Well-known member
On Friday, Russia's state-owned RIA Novosti news agency also quoted Konstantin Sivkov, director of the Academy of Geopolitical Problems, as saying Buk missiles "should be provided with external systems of target identification, that is, radio-location systems. It's an entire system. And the insurgents certainly don't have radio-location."

Without a backup, a missile can be fired by operators who are not totally sure of what they are aiming at.
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
I would think you would be even more insulted if I insinuated that misidentification and mistaking a civilian jet, for a military plane, never happens.

In these types of situations, mistakes can happen, as in the case of Iran Air Flight 655
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
The intelligence officials were cautious in their assessment, noting that while the Russians have been arming separatists in eastern Ukraine, the U.S. had no direct evidence that the missile used to shoot down the passenger jet came from Russia.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/us-present-intelligence-data-plane-crash-0
 

Mike

Well-known member
hypocritexposer said:
I would think you would be even more insulted if I insinuated that misidentification and mistaking a civilian jet, for a military plane, never happens.

In these types of situations, mistakes can happen, as in the case of Iran Air Flight 655


Big difference on this shooting and Iran 655. They were taking fire from the Iranians at the time. Fully justified accident.
On July 3, 1988, the USS VINCENNES and USS ELMER MONTGOMERY were operating in international waters of the Persian Gulf near the Strait of Hormuz. (On July 2, the MONTGOMERY had responded to a distress signal from a Danish tanker that was under attack by Iranian small boats and had fired a warning shot, which caused the breaking off of the attack.) Having indications that approximately a dozen Iranian small boats were congregating to attack merchant shipping, the VINCENNES sent a Mark III LAMPS Helicopter on investigative patrol in international airspace to assess the situation. At about 1010 local Gulf time (2:10 a.m. EDT), when the helicopter had approached to within only four nautical miles, it was fired on by Iranian small boats (the VINCENNES was ten nautical miles from the scene at this time). The LAMPS helicopter was not damaged and returned immediately to the VINCENNES.

As the VINCENNES and MONTGOMERY were approaching the group of Iranian small boats at approximately 1042 local time, at least four of the small boats turned toward and began closing in on the American warships. At this time, both American ships opened fire on the small craft, sinking two and damaging a third. Regrettably, in the course of the U.S. response to the Iranian attack, an Iranian civilian airliner was shot down by the VINCENNES, which was firing in self defense at what it believed to be a hostile Iranian military aircraft. We deeply regret the tragic loss of life that occurred. The Defense Department will conduct a full investigation.

The actions of U.S. forces in response to being attacked by Iranian small boats were taken in accordance with our inherent right of self-defense, as recognized in Article 51 of the United Nations Charter, and pursuant to my constitutional authority with respect to the conduct of foreign relations and as Commander in Chief. There has been no further hostile action by Iranian forces, and, although U.S. forces will remain prepared to take additional defensive action to protect our units and military personnel, we regard this incident as closed. U.S. forces suffered no casualties or damage.
 
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