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Talk show

Big Muddy rancher

Well-known member
We have show The Charles Adler Show,

Had a interesting topic on today. They were talking about the customs that get brought to this country and the US by immigrants. Thing like Honor killings and the way some treat women. These thing don't meet the standards that have been attained for our countries but they are happening and to some point becoming mainstream. Why?

A point was made that we would not allow third world architecture to be built in our countries why allow third world treatment of women?
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
i do agree but, here in Canada with the hate crime laws, speaking out is hard to do.

Honor killings are supposedly carried out in the name of religion.

It is hate speech if you say too much.
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
I'm thinking that they are murder, but if you speak out against honor killings, it is considered hate speech, or racist.

Since honor killings are a part of the religious culture of many Islamic fundamentalists, speaking out against honor killings could technically fall into the category of “criticizing the Islamic religion”. Further, Islamic fundamentalists live in such a way that their religion is intricately woven into every aspect of culture: to talk of their culture is to talk of their religion, to talk of their religion is to talk of their culture. The UN document circulated by the OIC aims to prevent any criticism of Islam; therefore, any complaints about any aspect of their culture could be construed as critical of their religion and therefore illegal.

Of course, many of the principles of Islam–and Sharia law– are in opposition to western culture: there are fundamental differences in the beliefs of these two cultures. It is imperative to discuss and analyze this, but attempts are being made to squash dissent: for instance, you can read here about the push from the Organization of Islamic Countries to make criticism of Islam illegal in the western world. This is in direct violation of the fundamental belief in freedom of speech inherent in liberal democracy.

As Islam spreads across Europe and North America, how frequent are honor killings? Many in the Islamic community do not want to assimilate; indeed, there is now Sharia court in Britain, and there was a recent attempt to impose Sharia in Canada as well. Canada was able to prevent Sharia court, but it was a long, tough battle. Many from the Islamic world (not all) appear to look on western culture with disdain, and want to live in the western world– but according to the principles of Islamic fundamentalism.

http://www.zimbio.com/Aasiya+Hassan/articles/8/Honor+Killing+Aasiya+Hassan+Islamic+Fundamentalism
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
Honor Killing of Aasiya Hassan: Islamic Fundamentalism, the West, and Irreconcilable Differences

NG Lynd (Female)
Lives in Northern PA , United States


Written by DemocraticPopulist on Feb-18-09 11:34pm

In Orchard Park, New York this past week, a woman was allegedly decapitated by her estranged husband: Almost too disturbing–and telling– to mention is the fact that he did this at the television network the couple founded in order to air programs that challenged Muslim/Islamic stereotypes.

Muzzammil “Mo” Hassan is accused of doing this to his estranged wife after she filed for divorce. Of course, the media is downplaying this: Not only are we not hearing much about this, but religion and culture–and the role they may have played–is not being discussed very much either. Surprisingly, a surf of liberal and progressive chat/bulletin board sites reveals a barrage of commentary from citizens who are referring to this as an”honor killing”.

The posters who are in denial that this is related to the culture and religion of the couple’s native Pakistan are to be expected; the ideologues who immediately call any reporting on this at all as “racist” are standard. Posters that identify as Muslim and live in the West insist that this is not something that occurs in Pakistan, which is factually untrue: hundred of honor killings occur in Pakistan every year. The surprisingly high level of traffic from people posting their concern about fundamentalist Islam makes me hopeful that the liberal community is no longer allowing themselves to be controlled by those who tell them what to say, how to think, and what they may believe.

Aasiya Hassan, 37, was a remarkable, admirable woman. She was a trained architect and appeared interested in leading social reforms for women from Islamic countries. She apparently loved her two young children very much. Pictures of her on the Internet show an attractive woman who dressed and wore her hair in the western style. The Hassans lived in Orchard Park–an affluent suburb of Buffalo that has a low crime rate and an even lower homicide rate. A surf of the statistics on crime in NY suggests that there has not been a homicidal act in this area for over 20 years.

I can remember hearing about Bridges TV back when it was founded in 2004: this was during a group meeting in Philly discussing women and Islam.

My progressive friends were excited about the station, stating that it would help break stereotypes, encourage friendly relations amongst all in the United States, and encourage our friends from the Arab world who are Islamic to open up to–and embrace–more progressive ideas. The network, available in certain areas in the U.S. and Canada, was the first English-language cable station geared for the Muslim/Arab communities in both countries. It was an opportunity for their audience to be exposed to the notion that certain reformers believe: Islam is not at odds with democratic principles, women’s rights, civil liberties, and societies that embrace a separation of religion and state.

I tried to be open-minded, but I was wary. However, I decided to give it a chance and take a wait-and-see approach; perhaps it would work.

In 2006, a friend from Australia whom I knew in college emailed me this information: A BBC poll for an Asian network in the UK decided to poll this Asian audience on honor killings, and reported that 1 in 10 of the 500 Asians polled said that they would approve of/accept the murder of a woman who dishonored her family. After this, my wariness increased: the issues this community has with “honor” appear deeply ingrained in their religion–and their religion and their culture go hand-and- hand.

Apparently, Aasiya was afraid of her husband’s curious sense of “honor”; there were calls to the home for domestic incidents, one as recently as Feb. 6, 2009– the day Mo Hassan was served his divorce papers. Aasiya had a protection from abuse order served on her estranged husband as well. Her fears were well-founded.

I commend Marcia Pappas, NY president of NOW, for speaking out on this. Check out this gutsy statement:

“This was, apparently, a terroristic version of honor killing.”

In other words, she is differentiating this from domestic violence; while of course any violence against a woman by her partner and in her home/personal space is a form of domestic violence, honor killings are carried out in a framework of religious and cultural values/beliefs that are deeply ingrained in Islamic society.

Honor killings are fairly common in Pakistan, Egypt, India (among Muslims) and Jordan, as well as other countries: Husbands, fathers, and brothers murder sisters, daughters, and wives for alleged sexual “indiscretions” such as premarital sex, adultery, and being raped. Mothers sometimes support the murder of their daughters, who they see as having brought shame upon the family “honor”.

As Islam spreads across Europe and North America, how frequent are honor killings? Many in the Islamic community do not want to assimilate; indeed, there is now Sharia court in Britain, and there was a recent attempt to impose Sharia in Canada as well. Canada was able to prevent Sharia court, but it was a long, tough battle. Many from the Islamic world (not all) appear to look on western culture with disdain, and want to live in the western world– but according to the principles of Islamic fundamentalism.

While it is difficult to find information about honor killings in Europe due to censorship, some information on Germany exists: 4 years ago six Muslim women living in Berlin were murdered by family members; then there is the story of of Hatun Sürücü, who was murdered by her brother for rejecting her arranged (forced) marriage. He was given nine years in prison starting in 2006. Precise statistics on how many women are murdered every year are hard to find: perhaps many of the crimes are not reported, but simply covered-up. The Turkish women’s organization Papatya has discovered that since 1996, at least 40 honor killings in Germany have occurred.

In the UK, 13 women are murdered in honor killings per year: while it has been contested, it does appear that it is a statement of fact to say that it occurs almost exclusively within South-Asian and Middle Eastern families. While clear, specific figures and statistics do not exist for the perpetrators’ cultures and countries-of-origin, a rough estimate is that two-thirds are Muslim. However, the other one-third could possibly be Hindu fundamentalists, Sikhs, and groups that migrated from Eastern Europe.

Honor killings have now come to Canada as well: In Mississauga Ontario, December 2007, Aqsa Parvez, 16, was strangled to death by her Pakistani father, Muhammad Parvez. Her crime? Refusal to wear a hijab (traditional headscarf): Parvez enjoyed changing out of her traditional attire in the girl’s room at school. (Right there with you, Aqsa: It was standard operating procedure for several of us to make a beeline immediately to the girl’s room in junior high; changing clothes and arranging hair and makeup appropriately took on a certain urgency.) Muhammad called the police himself and admitted his murder (curiously, Mo Hassan did so as well). His daughter died later that night in a hospital; he must have been very pleased to get the news. Asqua’s brother helped to mislead investigators; both were charged with first degree murder. The hearings finally began one month ago: Jan. 7, 2009.

There are several other cases from Canada as well.

Is the case of Aasiya’s murder the first in the US? If you haven’t heard of any, it is because they are under-reported. On New Year’s Day in 2008, Yaser Said of Texas, an Egyptian, allegedly murdered his two teenage daughters, 18-year-old Amina and 17-year-old Sarah, because they had boyfriends and liked western culture. When the story aired on America’s Most Wanted a few months ago, I watched it; a young, kindly male friend of the girls who was interviewed insisted that this sort of behavior is not a part of the law in Egypt. He truly believes this because someone told him that, but here is the part of the legal code in Egypt that helps empower those in Egypt who do this:article 17 of the Penal Code allows judicial discretion to allow reduced punishment in certain instances, often used to protect those who engage in honor killings. There are honor killings in Egypt, as well as throughout many countries in the middle east and south Asia.

The story of the Said girls is almost too painful to bear: Sarah called 911 after being shot and told them her father was trying to kill her, and that she was dying. Their sin was dating boys who were not Muslims, wearing western clothes and styles, and enjoying their life. Later, their dead bodies were found in the back of their father’s taxi.

Then there is the case from summer 2008, when 25-year-old Sandeela Kanwal of Atlanta was murdered by her father, Chaudhry Rashid. Apparently she wanted out of an arranged marriage, a situation that had entailed going to Pakistan, marrying, and coming back to the US. Kanwal apparently did not like her forced marriage, as she was used to western culture. Her father allegedly strangled her to death.
Another incident occurred in the summer of 2008, this time in Henrietta, NY: A refugee from Afghanistan, Waheed Allah Mohammad–only 22 years old–pleaded guilty to attempted second-degree murder and first-degree assault after admitting that he stabbed his 19-year-old sister, Fauzia A. Mohammad, several times when she tried to leave her family. Waheed called his sister a “bad girl” because her friend intended to drive her to New York City, where Fauzia wanted to work, and live freely. One known case of abuse related to the notion of “honor” in the US that goes back a bit was it 2004, when Ismail Peltek, an immigrant from Turkey, murdered his wife Hatice by stabbing her with a knife and bludgeoning her in the head with a hammer until she was dead. He also physically attacked his 22-year-old daughter; he said he killed his wife and tried to kill his own daughter because they had been sexually abused by his brother. He also physically abused his 4-year-old daughter because she had done something very dishonorable: a gynecologist had examined (read: “touched” and “saw”) her for evidence after it was discovered that she may have been sexually abused by his brother as well.

Notice the differences in dates between those in Europe and most of those in the US? Europe’s go back further, and are now fairly common. The incidents in the US are just starting to pick up pace: the murder/attempted murder of all but one of the six girls and young women listed above are from 2008 and 2009.



It’s starting here.

Of course, many of the principles of Islam–and Sharia law– are in opposition to western culture: there are fundamental differences in the beliefs of these two cultures. It is imperative to discuss and analyze this, but attempts are being made to squash dissent: for instance, you can read here about the push from the Organization of Islamic Countries to make criticism of Islam illegal in the western world. This is in direct violation of the fundamental belief in freedom of speech inherent in liberal democracy.

Right now, in the once-libertarian Netherlands, MP Geert Wilders is being tried–yes,tried– for criticizing Islam in a documentary he made: apparently, the militant followers of Islam are making headway with their mission to ban any criticism of their religion in the western world. Of course, the spin is being put on this situation, and Wilders is being construed as far-right, and therefore such a bad person that his position on what is going on in Netherlands loses all credibility. We really need to remember that just because someone may be wrong about some things, they may be right about others. His right-wing (supposedly) political beliefs are not proof that he is wrong about what he said about Islam; to assume someone is wrong because of a stereotype associated with a label (right-wing) is an illogical non-argument that does not involve any form of rational thought or logical, objective reasoning.

Let’s say it again: This is in direct opposition to the western, democratic tradition of freedom of speech.

Since honor killings are a part of the religious culture of many Islamic fundamentalists, speaking out against honor killings could technically fall into the category of “criticizing the Islamic religion”. Further, Islamic fundamentalists live in such a way that their religion is intricately woven into every aspect of culture: to talk of their culture is to talk of their religion, to talk of their religion is to talk of their culture. The UN document circulated by the OIC aims to prevent any criticism of Islam; therefore, any complaints about any aspect of their culture could be construed as critical of their religion and therefore illegal.

Of course, speaking out against or trying to prevent Sharia court involves…well…having to speak, and any attempt at trying to prevent Sharia by arguing that it is in violation of church/state separation could be construed as “hate speech” criticizing their religion–after all, if you are against something, of course you are going to mention why you don’t like it, and that is a form of criticism. Since Sharia is part of their religious culture, speaking out against the creation of Sharia court is speaking out against an aspect of their religion. Do you see the big picture yet?

Let’s not allow this situation to veer out-of-control as we now see in Europe; let’s not get to the point that Canada got to two years ago, when they had to fight hard against Sharia being established in their country. The US government and the US media need to label and address this as what it really is: honor killing. It is time to be courageous, instead of allowing PC policing groups to tell us what to think, say, and do.

http://www.zimbio.com/Aasiya+Hassan/articles/8/Honor+Killing+Aasiya+Hassan+Islamic+Fundamentalism
 
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