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Terminal Vs. Maternal Bulls

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Mike

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http://ansci.colostate.edu/documents/05ResearchReports/Growth_carcassteers.pdf

Summary

Weaned calves from Terminal bulls born to British crossbred females profited $39.52 more net return per head than the calves sired by Maternal bulls.

Fed calves from Terminal bulls born to British crossbred females profited $83.66 more net return per head than the calves sired by Maternal bulls.
 

Andy

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If they figured the heifers in there the terminals would have made even more than the maternals.
I really don't know why more people don't identify ther top cows and breed them maternal and breed everything else to a terminal sire. That is the best of both worlds.
 

Denny

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It takes a whole lifetime to build a great cowherd and one generation to wreck them...

Did they take into account the big dead calves and the dead cows from trying to have them plus all the extra labor that goes into getting a large live calf?

My first cows I ever bought came bred charlaios let's just say no thank you.
 

Faster horses

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Denny: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Our neighbors don't mind big birthweight calves, but they don't mind going through all their cows like they were calving heifers either. Every two hours, all day, all night, all the time.

No thanks to that, too.
 

Mike

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Faster horses said:
Denny: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Our neighbors don't mind big birthweight calves, but they don't mind going through all their cows like they were calving heifers either. Every two hours, all day, all night, all the time.

No thanks to that, too.

I've heard all the so-called calving problems associated with the terminals. That's all I use and don't have those problems though. Think they might be blown out of proportion a little?

Don't say much for your neighbors cows or their bull buying decisions. :???:

I haven't helped anything with a normal presentation other than a heifer in years.

Non-progressive thinking people will be just that........................."non-progressive".

Andy's got the system down. My hat's off to you Andy.

Ya'll keep on breeding to those Low Birthweight bulls. One day your gonna wake up and your cows won't be able to give birth to a goat. :roll:
 

Andy

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Faster horses said:
Denny: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Our neighbors don't mind big birthweight calves, but they don't mind going through all their cows like they were calving heifers either. Every two hours, all day, all night, all the time.

No thanks to that, too.

I even AI'ed some of my hefiers to a Char bull and they have been coming just fine. Both the cleanup bulls I used were chars and they have both been used on hefiers with no problems.

Your neibors must not be very good managers if they have to watch there cows like that. But maybe they just like to watch there cows close and don't really need to.
 

Jason

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Chars up here were really hot a few years back. They do as a breed tend to have more calving difficulty than say british breeds, but I know the breeders here really concentrated on getting the weights down.

One of the side effects of the easier calving was that the offspring from the easy bulls no longer gained as well as the traditional Chars.

The few guys left that have herds of Chars are the ones that struck a balance. Not too hard calving and yet good gains.

I agree with Mike that selection for super easy calving for too long is a bad deal. Keep me in the 85 pound range and I'm happy.
 

WB

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Mike: I agree with most of what you said but the part about your cows won't be able to give birth to a goat is not actually true. Just because you use larger birth weight sires does not garantee larger pevic areas of the females. Consequently using lower birth weight sires does not garantee smaller pelvic areas either. By using lower birth weight sires you can actually wean more pounds of calf in many instances. Higher birthweight cattle require more labor and most of us in this business don't have much to waste.


The Angus breed far excels all others when it comes to maternal calving ease. While many of the high birth weight continentals will have no larger pelvic areas and need to have them to deliver their larger calves.


In my own personal situation I have been around some higher birthweight cattle that caused a lot of unecessary grief and I won't go back to those days again. There are simply to many of what they call curvebending genteics out there that make life a lot easier.
 

Mike

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WB:Higher birthweight cattle require more labor and most of us in this business don't have much to waste.

But if you read the study, you are getting a return in value. How could your labor be wasted?

Fact: There is a high correlation in BW's, WW's, mature weights and pelvic sizes.
Fact: Most heterosis studies put the benefit at around 15% with the highest achievable hybrid vigor. Do you see any un-hybridized corn anymore?

On your first point. I just haven't seen the higher birthweights OR the calving problems everyone speaks of. Am I the only one, or is it somewhat mythical?
 

BRG

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As far as the hybred business goes. Their are pros and cons to it. Depends on what you are trying to achieve.

The calving difficulties WERE there in the past. But now most of the problems have been solved. I think you can get the same problems with english breeds as well. Just know what you are using. Mikes type of Chars are not the typical old time Char breeding. He has gone out, like most other breeders, and fixed the problem.

It is tough to change the mind of someone who was at one time burned by this problem. It is like the stigma that Red Angus is nothing more than a calving ease breed. I know that isn't true, but that is what it was used for for many years and we are just now finally getting the respect that we deserve.
 

sw

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Mike,
the calving problems have been really reduced in most of the Continental cattle so you don't see the problems that people had 20 years ago and at the same time too many of the British breeds went after growth and increased birth weights. The breeds are getting so much alike now that you can have anything that you want within a breed. Too many producers do not take advantage of heterosis like they should, one of the excuses is where do I get my replacements if using a terminal sire? Easy, do as we have done with AI, using semen from bulls we want daughters out of and cleaning up with terminal sires, or use both sire types on the cow herd and only keep females from the maternal sire. Had this same conversation with an Angus breeder awhile back, he was trying to tell me that the Angus breed has sires that are better in growth than the GV sires I have been using so I should be breeding everything to Angus as they can provide everything needed. No heterosis. I need that 15% improvement. Just this week when talking with feeders and packers, everybody wants the cross bred cattle because they perform in the feedlot and in the cooler. They see too many straight bred cattle that either are British that finish too light with too much fat and too little muscle and then they see too many Continentals that won't grade but they have the size and muscle, so they want the cross breds.
 

Mike

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I have to fight the "Hard Calving" misconceptions every day and it's quite a challenge, but I enjoy taking someone into my pasture and show them calves that are up to 300-400 lbs. at just a couple of months of age.

Best part of it is that I haven't touched anything older than a heifer when calving in several years. (Except maybe mal-presentations)

I sleep good at night too.

Most guys that talk down the Char calving problems heard it from their Dad's, Uncle's and Grandad's who were putting those big huge French bulls on 800 pound cows and expecting miracles to happen.

I am breeding some Char heifers as we speak to a Red Angus bull too. My mind is not closed.
 

lazy ace

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Mike I give you credit for using hybrid vigor in your operation. WE ARE NOT using hybrid vigor and seem to be getting along just fine. I belive there is more than one way to skin a cat (or goat for that matter).

Our replacement heifers and some of our bull customers replacement heifers dollared out just as good if not better than there steer calves!

One question for everybody? Do you think there is a difference between birth weight and calving ease? For example I believe a first calf heifer could give birth to a 200 pound snake easier than giving birth to a 2 pound basketball. Sire selection for calving ease is just as important as sire selection for growth.
 

Jason

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There is a huge difference in birth weight and calving ease.

One of my customers told me about some heifers bred to a Hereford bull one year. All the calves were about 60 pounds but short necked. He pulled every one. The head would sink into the shoulders and they all had to come out at once.

Take an exotic calf that weighs 85 pounds and stand him next to an Angus calf of the exact same weight. The exotic calf will be larger every time. ( a pound of feathers a pound of gold idea )

Taking a weight is easy, ranking a calving ease isn't quite as easy. 2 heifers might have their calves unassisted (same rank) but 1 is up and licking the calf while the other has to rest for an hour.

Or 2 heifers have an easy pull (again same rank) 1 because you were there the other because the tongue was starting to hang out.

Mike your temps down there eliminate a lot of calving troubles. Warmer weather is proven to lower birth weights. Many guys here that use exotics still pull several calves a year even out of good sized cows.
 

sw

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Calving ease is not all about birth weight, the basketball type or the snake is a good analogy. I think the one thing most over looked is gestation length, almost all of the bulls that work for heifers have gestations of 275 days and sometimes even less and some of the harder calving sires have gestation lengths of 290 plus. Temperature also does have an effect, fall calving I can get away with using bulls that are not all that much calving ease but they don't cause problems because they will be lighter and the cows are in better shape, they have been out foraging all summer, not waiting in the chow line.
 

Broke-T

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I have been using Charolais bulls on commercial cows for a cpl of years now. Have had no calving diffaculty. Its all in the shape and selection. Good Charolais are a lot different than 10 to 15 years ago. Angus are too. If you start looking at those Angus with YWT above 70 many into the 100 range the look just like black Charolais. Going all black is not the answer that a lot of people think it is. I agree that 50/50 English Continental is the way to go. As for replacements, Wish I could buy what I want but looks like I must raise own.

Johnny
 

Andy

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No matter what breed you use you need to be able to trust who ever you gat the bulls from. Were I buy my bulls they really stress vigor at birth and calving ease(not really low birth Wts). My char calves are on average alittle more vigors at birth than my angus.
 

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