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The High Cost of Doing without Universal Health Care

nonothing

Well-known member
The High Cost of Doing without Universal Health Care


Here’s the news that rocked my little world this week: We got a call that a family friend, let’s call her Lorraine, was in an ICU, barely able to breathe on her own. In the last few weeks, there’d been some mumblings about “not feeling a hundred percent,” but no hint of anything seriously wrong. The diagnosis came back in a couple of days: fourth stage breast cancer which has spread to a number of other organs including her lungs. If you know anything at all about breast cancer “staging,” you know there is no fifth stage.

Lorraine, it turns out, has no health insurance. We didn’t know that, in fact, we’d been content to believe that her consulting business was going as well as she said it was. In her late forties now, she’s a former accountant who never could find another decent job—also a news junky, an avid reader, and an energetic volunteer in a number of worthy causes. She’s usually balancing a half dozen projects at a time, all of which she’s ebullient about.

But it turns out she’s been struggling with the cell phone bill and the rent. A few weeks ago, unbeknownst to us, she’d moved out of her apartment and into a free room offered by one of the nonprofits she volunteers for. The cost of a mammogram – well over $100 – must have been out of reach.

The current discussion about President Bush’s health saving accounts proposal needs to include Lorraine. The idea, laid out in his State of the Union address, is that we should each have a “catastrophic” health insurance policy for the big ticket items like breast cancer, plus a tax-deductible savings account for the little things, like mammograms. If we have to take “personal responsibility” for our doctor visits and routine care we’ll be thrifty about it – or so the thinking goes – and the nation’s medical expenditures will stop spiking like an Ebola fever.

It’s an old idea, going back at least to the Clintons, that the problem with the American health system is that we, the consumers, just consume too much. Make us mindful of the costs by raising co-payments and other out-of-pocket costs, and we’ll stop indulging in blood work-ups, MRI’s, prostate exams, and all those other fun things.

President Bush, meet Lorraine. Her problem wasn’t that she feasted on unnecessary care, but that like so many of 45 million uninsured Americans, she wasn’t getting any care at all. Maybe, when she first noticed the lump, she should have staged a sit-in at the nearest clinic until they sprang for a free mammogram. But her idea of “personal responsibility” was not to be a bother to anyone.

And how much does the “personal responsibility” theory even apply to the insured population? I have insurance – at enormous cost, because I’m not part of a group plan and I’m an ex-breast cancer patient myself – but that doesn’t mean I choose what care I get. It’s not my idea to have annual mammogram and pap smear. The doctor had to threaten tears before I’d submit to a bone scan, and they’ll have to drag me in for a colonoscopy. No one aside from the rare victim of Munchausen’s disease goes looking for recreational medical care.

The fact is there’s a big difference between the economics of health care and that of, say, costume jewelry. We the consumers control the demand for costume jewelry; we can splurge on it or leave it alone. But we have precious little control over our demand for health care. Sure, we can exercise and refrain from smoking and sky-diving and swimming with sharks. We can eat right too (whatever that may mean, with the dietary advice fluctuating from month to month.) But it’s the medical profession that determines how often we need our blood drawn, our breasts squished, our cervices scraped or any of the other nasty interventions they have to offer.

If the medical care we consume was under our own control, I’d say, sure, save up for it and use it wisely. But it’s no more in our control than the wind and floods we insure our homes against. When something is not in our control, we share the risk with some form of insurance. We don’t say: Save up because you’re on your own.

You think it’s too expensive to have universal health insurance? Let’s be hard-headed about Lorraine’s case. If she’d been diagnosed earlier, she might have gotten by with a mastectomy and a bout of chemotherapy instead of burning up Medicaid dollars in an ICU. She might be out volunteering for the needy right now, instead of lying in terror in a hospital bed.
 

CattleRMe

Well-known member
That is the problem the need for one's health care is so outta one's hands. People who take care of theirselves can be sicker then those that abuse their bodies.

I do think there is a definate problem with the US health care system. I just don't know what else the answer is with the high rise of insurance costs?
 

BBJ

Well-known member
CattleRMe said:
That is the problem the need for one's health care is so outta one's hands. People who take care of theirselves can be sicker then those that abuse their bodies.

I do think there is a definate problem with the US health care system. I just don't know what else the answer is with the high rise of insurance costs?


Please tell me where in this world you can get better health care than in the US? :x
 

Mrs.Greg

Well-known member
BBJ said:
CattleRMe said:
That is the problem the need for one's health care is so outta one's hands. People who take care of theirselves can be sicker then those that abuse their bodies.

I do think there is a definate problem with the US health care system. I just don't know what else the answer is with the high rise of insurance costs?


Please tell me where in this world you can get better health care than in the US? :x
Maybe you won't believe this BBJ BUT Canada has a great healthcare system!!So I beg to differ with you Friendly like :D
 

BBJ

Well-known member
Mrs.Greg said:
BBJ said:
CattleRMe said:
That is the problem the need for one's health care is so outta one's hands. People who take care of theirselves can be sicker then those that abuse their bodies.

I do think there is a definate problem with the US health care system. I just don't know what else the answer is with the high rise of insurance costs?


Please tell me where in this world you can get better health care than in the US? :x
Maybe you won't believe this BBJ BUT Canada has a great healthcare system!!So I beg to differ with you Friendly like :D

So if YOU (Mrs.Greg) got bad sick you would go to Canada for treatment?
Friendly question, not being mean with that one just asking :)

And so if there system is better my response for those that don't like the way it is here is that they need to move. 8)
 

Mrs.Greg

Well-known member
I live in Canada,of course I would get treatment in Canada,I work in the healthcare system here,Alberta is known for having great hospitals and Dr.s Edmonton has the top cardiac Dr.s and a awesome childrens hopspital.I'm not sure where your information comes from but in Canada NO-ONE is turned away.Even in our small town area we have access to really good Dr.s.....oh and the nurses are great :D As we speak we have three family members recieving cancer treatments,they are getting care that we most certainly cannot complain about,and they were all diagnosed and started treatment within two weeks of diagnoses.
 

CattleRMe

Well-known member
BBJ said:
CattleRMe said:
That is the problem the need for one's health care is so outta one's hands. People who take care of theirselves can be sicker then those that abuse their bodies.

I do think there is a definate problem with the US health care system. I just don't know what else the answer is with the high rise of insurance costs?


Please tell me where in this world you can get better health care than in the US? :x

The problem is in the cost of the health care and the insurance cost you have to pay.
 

BBJ

Well-known member
Mrs.Greg said:
I live in Canada,of course I would get treatment in Canada,I work in the healthcare system here,Alberta is known for having great hospitals and Dr.s Edmonton has the top cardiac Dr.s and a awesome childrens hopspital.I'm not sure where your information comes from but in Canada NO-ONE is turned away.Even in our small town area we have access to really good Dr.s.....oh and the nurses are great :D As we speak we have three family members recieving cancer treatments,they are getting care that we most certainly cannot complain about,and they were all diagnosed and started treatment within two weeks of diagnoses.

:oops: I'll pay better attention in the future, :oops: sorry Mrs. Greg, I never even :oops: thought to look at where you are from :oops:

I guess my real point is that people love to complain about stuff and never do anything about it. Wether it be doing something to help it, besides complaining, or going to where it fits their view. I know you can't juts pack up and move everytime something happens that you don't like because you would never get to unpack. But too often people just complain to have something to do.

Once again my mistake on questioning your choice of healthcare Mrs. Greg. :cry: I am sorry too if I implied Canadas health care system was bad, that wasn't my intentions. :)
 

BBJ

Well-known member
CattleRMe said:
BBJ said:
CattleRMe said:
That is the problem the need for one's health care is so outta one's hands. People who take care of theirselves can be sicker then those that abuse their bodies.

I do think there is a definate problem with the US health care system. I just don't know what else the answer is with the high rise of insurance costs?


Please tell me where in this world you can get better health care than in the US? :x

The problem is in the cost of the health care and the insurance cost you have to pay.

I agree but I think that has more to do with frivilous lawsuits(SP?) than it does the health care system. The system is great, it's the dang lawyers that have screwed it up for you and I.
 

jodywy

Well-known member
My pet peve is young couples, get married buy a new sled(snowmobile) new 4 wheeler then the husband gets in a bad wreck. We have autions and dinners to raise money to pay hospital bills and I always figured that the cost of the sled or 4 wheeler would have bought them insurance for a few years...
Most the people I know that don't have health insurance, driver newer trucks, new tractors , more trips. We have alway had healt insurance even though some times it means a big garden, picking wild berries, and canning our veg , berries , meat,mending old clothes. Some insurance had a very high deductable $7500 but we made ends meet....
Oh Cuba has Gun controll and Univesial health care those that complaine can move there...
 

BBJ

Well-known member
jodywy said:
My pet peve is young couples, get married buy a new sled(snowmobile) new 4 wheeler then the husband gets in a bad wreck. We have autions and dinners to raise money to pay hospital bills and I always figured that the cost of the sled or 4 wheeler would have bought them insurance for a few years...
Most the people I know that don't have health insurance, driver newer trucks, new tractors , more trips. We have alway had healt insurance even though some times it means a big garden, picking wild berries, and canning our veg , berries , meat,mending old clothes. Some insurance had a very high deductable $7500 but we made ends meet....
Oh Cuba has Gun controll and Univesial health care those that complaine can move there...

EXACTLY :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Great post, if you want/need something bad enough you will go get it!
 

CattleRMe

Well-known member
How can a couple with children pay 450 a month in health insurance say if the rancher pays them 1200? Say it is their choice to be there yeah maybe it is but at least they are working trying to help themselves. I just think there is some need for some program or some cuts in health care and insurance costs. Everyone deserves to be taken care of when ill but the reality is it bankrupts some or leaves them years and years in debt.
 

CattleRMe

Well-known member
BBJ said:
jodywy said:
My pet peve is young couples, get married buy a new sled(snowmobile) new 4 wheeler then the husband gets in a bad wreck. We have autions and dinners to raise money to pay hospital bills and I always figured that the cost of the sled or 4 wheeler would have bought them insurance for a few years...
Most the people I know that don't have health insurance, driver newer trucks, new tractors , more trips. We have alway had healt insurance even though some times it means a big garden, picking wild berries, and canning our veg , berries , meat,mending old clothes. Some insurance had a very high deductable $7500 but we made ends meet....
Oh Cuba has Gun controll and Univesial health care those that complaine can move there...

EXACTLY :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap

Great post, if you want/need something bad enough you will go get it!

What if you just can't afford it??? Then everyone complains when someone uses the welfare system. Where is the happy medium??
 

BBJ

Well-known member
CattleRMe said:
BBJ said:
jodywy said:
My pet peve is young couples, get married buy a new sled(snowmobile) new 4 wheeler then the husband gets in a bad wreck. We have autions and dinners to raise money to pay hospital bills and I always figured that the cost of the sled or 4 wheeler would have bought them insurance for a few years...
Most the people I know that don't have health insurance, driver newer trucks, new tractors , more trips. We have alway had healt insurance even though some times it means a big garden, picking wild berries, and canning our veg , berries , meat,mending old clothes. Some insurance had a very high deductable $7500 but we made ends meet....
Oh Cuba has Gun controll and Univesial health care those that complaine can move there...

EXACTLY :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap

Great post, if you want/need something bad enough you will go get it!

What if you just can't afford it??? Then everyone complains when someone uses the welfare system. Where is the happy medium??

Ok, I am going to say exactly what came to mind when I read this and it might sound harsh but "What if you just can't afford it?";
#1 - Get a better job or a second one, (refering to what the rancher pays them)

#2 - Thats not my problem, I am married with one child and the only income our household has at this moment, because my wife went back to school after our little girl was born, we have NO student loans, health insurance, 1 yr old new rock house, no real debt besides that house, and all because we worked hard saved, saved, saved and did it right. When we went in to get our home loan we had 10k cash in hand and the bank looked at us like we were crazy. If you want something bad enough you can get it. I'm in no way saying the system is perfect, little is in this world, but I've worked too hard to get what I've got and I know it's possible.
 

Cowpuncher

Well-known member
There is no answer to the health care problem.

1. Unless people pay their medical bills directly, they have no incentive to explore less expensive alternatives.

2. The only incentive to have health insurance is to have other assets that can be taken to satisify medical bills.

3. Insurance companies have no incentive to control costs since they pass all costs (plus a profit margin) on to their insured.

4. There is no competition in the health care business. Rather than cutting prices to keep their facilities fully utilized, the medical profession simply raises their price to cover any shortfall.

5. Inept practitioners are not kicked out of the business, but passed on to another facility drawing malpractice suits one after another.

6. Lawyers like the current system since it provides a steady source of windfall lawsuits.

7. Employers are virtually forced to provide insurance in the US. Other coutries do not do this and as a result are very competitive forcing US companies out of business.

Some years ago while working in San Francisco the rising costs of medical care prompted California to double the number of students entering the profession to create competition. Rather than lowering prices, it had the effect of raising them so that medical professionals would have a steady income.

There are, of course. solutions to the problem. No politician is going to touch them.
 

theHiredMansWife

Well-known member
CattleRMe said:
How can a couple with children pay 450 a month in health insurance say if the rancher pays them 1200? Say it is their choice to be there yeah maybe it is but at least they are working trying to help themselves. I just think there is some need for some program or some cuts in health care and insurance costs. Everyone deserves to be taken care of when ill but the reality is it bankrupts some or leaves them years and years in debt.

We looked at a job down by Paradise Kansas a few years ago. No insurance, but the owner was quite happy to tell us Kansas's CHIPS program. (Expanded Medicaid for low-income children).
He was quick to point out that we would qualify.


We've giggled over that one several times.
"No, we don't have insurance, but don't worry! We pay lousy enough you'll qualify for Medicaid." :lol:
------------------------------------------

I think something people also forget is the expense of the unisured on the rise of health care costs. When people default on their hospital bills, that lost money needs to be recouped somewhere. So costs go up again.

Also, even in the case of people who do have insurance, in order to keep monthly premiums affordable, people have to have high deductibles and co-pays. Even with insurance, a costly procedure can still cost the insured several thousand dollars or more, out of pocket.
 

jodywy

Well-known member
CattleRMe said:
How can a couple with children pay 450 a month in health insurance say if the rancher pays them 1200? Say it is their choice to be there yeah maybe it is but at least they are working trying to help themselves. I just think there is some need for some program or some cuts in health care and insurance costs. Everyone deserves to be taken care of when ill but the reality is it bankrupts some or leaves them years and years in debt.
gees when I first came back to the ranch I milked a small herd of milk cows was lucky if we made $1000/month back then and insurance was $350/ month and 300 deductable...had 3 kids with that policy, we had meat, milk and eggs we raise and lived in a 60'x 14' two bedroom trailor house. Sold the milk cows and was paying $6500/year for a $5000 deductable insurance policy, while make less then $18,000, but we did move up to a new 3 bedroom double wide.We buy use viehicals, equiment, ride the best horse we can afford and I will pay for a good bull.
 
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