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the man makes a great point.

Tam

Well-known member
"Voluntary" ID Is An Idea Time Has Passed By
Anyone who knows me knows I adamantly oppose government interference in the marketplace. I believe government should be restricted in both power and scope whenever possible.

However, I'm not nearly as dogmatic as I used to be where a national animal ID system is concerned. Yes, I understand the National Cattlemen's Beef Association (NCBA) position that ID should be voluntary, but NCBA also is keenly aware of the drivers in the marketplace, and what our customers are demanding regarding traceability. What they're demanding is simply 100%.
Can you trace an outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease if only 90% of livestock are in the system? Will consumers be satisfied knowing the farm of origin is documented on only 75% of U.S. calves? Will the global community be satisfied with age verification that covers just 33% of U.S. cows, or 25% of all cattle movements? And then only if the U.S. is given 6-8 weeks to conduct an investigation?

Of course not. That's why the government will demand it as an essential tool in protecting the U.S. cow herd and consumer safety. Our customers -- consumers, restaurants and grocery stores -- are demanding it, and it's quickly becoming a cost of participating in the global beef market.

A voluntary program with 100% participation sounds to me strikingly like mandatory national ID. The real issues are if the system will be industry driven, and the data protected in private hands; and those hurdles have been cleared. USDA, recognizing it couldn't protect the data, and that private industry could do it more efficiently, more securely, and with the ability to add value creation along with it, has stepped aside.

If free enterprise works, consumers are demanding it, and our industry has the ability to do it, why are we spinning our wheels?

The most progressive cow-calf producers already have embraced national ID and, at the least, are source and age verifying their products. Breed associations, private companies and state cattlemen's groups all have producer-level programs, and the national entity has been created.

Why we seem to be stuck in quicksand is obvious -- we haven't had to move. USDA (www.usda.gov/nais) has set implementation target dates in 2008 and 2009 and, like a kid waiting until the last minute to do his chores, many in the industry are on hold, and at tremendous risk to themselves.

Thankfully, the invisible hand of the marketplace is already moving -- McDonald's is paying premiums, and Wal-Mart is making demands. And, with the impending reopening of the Japan market, we're likely to see premiums equaling those producers enjoyed last fall for source- and age-verified cattle.

USDA target dates for implementation may be two years off, but the economic incentive for cow-calf producers is clear -- they need to be compliant by the next time they market their calves.

The system will never be perfect, but it doesn't have to be. Canada has already concluded the investigation of its latest BSE case, which occurred weeks before the U.S. case in Alabama. Meanwhile, the U.S. investigation finally closed with the admission we couldn't trace the animal.

Put yourself in the position of Korea, Japan or even Wal-Mart, and tell me which product gives you more confidence? The time to move forward was yesterday.
-- Troy Marshall

barring the one mistake about Canada's last case being before the Alabama cow. (Alabama Mar 13th investigation concluded. May 2nd with no results and BC Apr 16th investigation concluded May 8 with results ) I think you guys should read this and think seriously about what he says.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I would expect no less from an NCBA member, when NCBA is hoping to make millions $ off the sale of tags and database inputs, all at the cost to the cattle producers they pretend to support......

http://www.ncbatag.com/
 

Manitoba_Rancher

Well-known member
Ot-Quit your damn whining, youve got to accept you need a traceback program or else you will never be shipping beef to Japan... YOu may be set in your ways but times are a changing and you need to follow or get out..... Im sure theres lots of Cattle Ranchers in the US that wouldnt mind putting an RFID tag in an animals ear...
 

Northern Rancher

Well-known member
That would mean some accountability and traceback capability-we can't have that. After having exported cattle to several U.S. states I wish them well in getting all their little petty bureacracies to agree on a workable system.
 

Sandhusker

Well-known member
Manitoba_Rancher said:
Ot-Quit your damn whining, youve got to accept you need a traceback program or else you will never be shipping beef to Japan... YOu may be set in your ways but times are a changing and you need to follow or get out..... Im sure theres lots of Cattle Ranchers in the US that wouldnt mind putting an RFID tag in an animals ear...

Nothings stopping them. They can do it now.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Sandhusker said:
Manitoba_Rancher said:
Ot-Quit your damn whining, youve got to accept you need a traceback program or else you will never be shipping beef to Japan... YOu may be set in your ways but times are a changing and you need to follow or get out..... Im sure theres lots of Cattle Ranchers in the US that wouldnt mind putting an RFID tag in an animals ear...

Nothings stopping them. They can do it now.

Sandhusker- You are right...If the incentive is there they could do it...The systems are in place BUT when you talk to the buyers and feedlots buying locally none are asking for it- and none will even give any type of assurance it will even be worth the $3 cost of the tag this fall....

Many around here are just sitting back and waiting-Why put out the extra cost for tags, readers, and additional labor if it isn't going to be worth anything....
 

HAY MAKER

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
I would expect no less from an NCBA member, when NCBA is hoping to make millions $ off the sale of tags and database inputs, all at the cost to the cattle producers they pretend to support......

http://www.ncbatag.com/

Well put OT,if you remember "M ID" was proceeding nicely till the ncba/packers decided they could make another buck off the producers again,this is the kind of activity that nit wits like andy,mrj ,sh, subscribe to,its beyond their comprehension level to see the facts,much less understand that there are cattle men that dont follow packers blindly,that want to bring fairness to the industry,slowly but surely fairness will come,its R CALF's agenda :wink: ...............good luck
 

Jason

Well-known member
HAY MAKER said:
Well put OT,if you remember "M ID" was proceeding nicely till the ncba/packers decided they could make another buck off the producers again,this is the kind of activity that nit wits like andy,mrj ,sh, subscribe to,its beyond their comprehension level to see the facts,much less understand that there are cattle men that dont follow packers blindly,that want to bring fairness to the industry,slowly but surely fairness will come,its R CALF's agenda :wink: ...............good luck

How was M ID proceeding? COOL as written and supported by R-calf banned M ID.

Revisionist history?
 

Econ101

Well-known member
Jason said:
HAY MAKER said:
Well put OT,if you remember "M ID" was proceeding nicely till the ncba/packers decided they could make another buck off the producers again,this is the kind of activity that nit wits like andy,mrj ,sh, subscribe to,its beyond their comprehension level to see the facts,much less understand that there are cattle men that dont follow packers blindly,that want to bring fairness to the industry,slowly but surely fairness will come,its R CALF's agenda :wink: ...............good luck

How was M ID proceeding? COOL as written and supported by R-calf banned M ID.

Revisionist history?
[/quote]

We need complete feed ban, not necessarily MID. MID is the packer program so they can get around the feed ban. Wrap it together all you want, Jason, we already know what you have done in Canada in more ways than one.

We also need an independent USDA, not a packer USDA. It is hurting the industry having them together and only benefiting corrupt politicians wanting a free ride on the back of the food industry.
 

HAY MAKER

Well-known member
Jason said:
HAY MAKER said:
Well put OT,if you remember "M ID" was proceeding nicely till the ncba/packers decided they could make another buck off the producers again,this is the kind of activity that nit wits like andy,mrj ,sh, subscribe to,its beyond their comprehension level to see the facts,much less understand that there are cattle men that dont follow packers blindly,that want to bring fairness to the industry,slowly but surely fairness will come,its R CALF's agenda :wink: ...............good luck

How was M ID proceeding? COOL as written and supported by R-calf banned M ID.

Revisionist history?
[/quote]

Damn right it's R CALF banned,if the ncba is controlling it,you're not that dumb Jason,you know as well as I the plan ncba/usda/packers tried to run on the cattle man was "BS"..............good luck
 

Murgen

Well-known member
We need complete feed ban, not necessarily MID. MID is the packer program so they can get around the feed ban. Wrap it together all you want, Jason, we already know what you have done in Canada in more ways than one.

MID will be used for more than BSE. And feed bans don't protect against FMD.
 

Econ101

Well-known member
Murgen said:
We need complete feed ban, not necessarily MID. MID is the packer program so they can get around the feed ban. Wrap it together all you want, Jason, we already know what you have done in Canada in more ways than one.

MID will be used for more than BSE. And feed bans don't protect against FMD.

MID will not protect from FMD either.

The problem is that I suspect MID will be used for things other than disease.
 

Jason

Well-known member
Animal ID, if done based on Canada's model, can't be used for anything but disease control/prevention.

Knowing the origin of an animal quickly is important, more so in the case of FMD. Limiting exposure to 1 or 2 States or even counties would be a huge blessing should it ever happen.

This crap about maybe the gov't or NCBA will know all about us is plain stupid. Everyone already knows how many cattle are out there. The only guys who are afraid of this are guys that don't report their cattle income and are evading taxes.
 

Tam

Well-known member
Sandhusker: The last ID program proposed by the USDA didn't go thru to the consumer - it stopped at the packer.
Tell us Sandhusker Does the meat from the cattle the Producers sell to the packer stop at the packers or does it go through to the consumer? Packers sell the beef they process from the cattle the producers sell them to consumers. But if the consumers sees that the USDA can't find the CATTLE of interest in an BSE investigation, because the Producers don't want to provide any help by ID ing their cattle how much confidence are they going to have in any of the BEEF the Packers are selling them. Please answer Tony's question for us
Canada has already concluded the investigation of its latest BSE case, which occurred weeks before( sorry but it was after) the U.S. case in Alabama. Meanwhile, the U.S. investigation finally closed with the admission we couldn't trace the animal.
Put yourself in the position of Korea, Japan or even Wal-Mart, and tell me which product gives you more confidence?
The demand for beef is affected by the confidence the consumers have in the WHOLE system If the producer is not willing to provide proof of where an animal is born so the USDA can find and clean up a reportable disease, not just BSE but ANY REPORTABLE DISEASE, then why should the consumer show any confidence in their product?

Oldtimer:I would expect no less from an NCBA member, when NCBA is hoping to make millions $ off the sale of tags and database inputs, all at the cost to the cattle producers they pretend to support......
Oldtimer do you care about CONSUMER CONFIDENCE? This should not be an issue about who is going to profit because if you have another FAILED INVESTIGATION because the USDA has no way of finding cattle of interest in a reportable disease outbreak your consumers will demand M"COOL" alright just so they know what is US beef so they can AVOID EATING IT!!!!! And GOOD LUCK GETTING YOUR EXPORTS BACK :roll:

Sandhusker:Nothings stopping them. They can do it now.
Again answer Tony's questions Can you trace an outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease if only 90% of livestock are in the system? Will consumers be satisfied knowing the farm of origin is documented on only 75% of U.S. calves? Will the global community be satisfied with age verification that covers just 33% of U.S. cows, or 25% of all cattle movements? And then only if the U.S. is given 6-8 weeks to conduct an investigation?

This is the problem with voluntary ID everyone sits back think they don't have to spend the money to by a tag as their herd isn't going to be the source of an outbreak. But if you ask the producers of the BSE positive cows a week before their animals were found positive I bet they would have said the same thing. :roll:

OLDTIMER:Sandhusker- You are right...If the incentive is there they could do it...The systems are in place BUT when you talk to the buyers and feedlots buying locally none are asking for it- and none will even give any type of assurance it will even be worth the $3 cost of the tag this fall....

Many around here are just sitting back and waiting-Why put out the extra cost for tags, readers, and additional labor if it isn't going to be worth anything....
Is CONSUMER CONFIENCE both Domestic and Foreign not worth anything to you Oldtimer?

Haymaker: "M ID" was proceeding nicely till the ncba/packers decided they could make another buck off the producers again
Does the M in M"ID" not stand for MANDITORY Haymaker? and wasn't it R-CALF that got it taken out of the M"COOL" bill as not to burden the US producers with proving where their cattle were raised?
Since US Beef is the safest in the World why would anyone care where it was raised. Just mark the imports because that is the ONLY BEEF THAT PRESENTS A HEALTH RISK Right Haymaker????? The NCBA had little to do with why R-CALF got it taken out of M"COOL", the burden of PROOF was the main reason and you know it. :roll:

eCON:We need complete feed ban, not necessarily MID. MID is the packer program so they can get around the feed ban.
You do need a complete feed ban but since the PRODUCERS DON"T HAVE ONE and the USDA are finding the effects of not having one. The US PRODUCERS need M"ID" so all investigations for any reportable disease including BSE on the US CATTLE HERD can be concluded WITH POSITIVE RESULTS in a speedy manner, not this 6 to 8 weeks with no DEFINITIVE answers crap. Or don't you care that the consumers need to have confidence in the CATTLE THE US PRODUCERS ARE SELLING TO THE PACKERS, THAT ARE IN TURN SOLD TO THE CONSUMERS AS BEEF IF DEMANDS ARE TO STAY HIGH? Blame the packers eCON but if beef demands fall off because the USDA can't find the cattle of interest in a BSE investigation it will be the PRODUCERS fault because they refused to ID their cattle.

M"ID" is not about NCBA profits or packer profits it is about CONSUMER CONFIDENCE both domestic and Foreign and in a demand sensitive industry, consumer confidence is crucial to the success of ALL PRODUCERS. Stop blaming the USDA. the NCBA And the PACKERS and start TAKING RESPONCIBILITY FOR YOUR CATTLE BEFORE THERE IS NO CONSUMER CONFIDENCE LEFT IN THE US!!!!!!! :x
 

ranch hand

Well-known member
Tam, if you have foot and mouth and a steer up there that has been sold 3 times, moved to 2 different locations, how will you tell with your system besides where it was born? Yours doesn't seem like it will work for foot and mouth.
 

Tam

Well-known member
ranch hand said:
Tam, if you have foot and mouth and a steer up there that has been sold 3 times, moved to 2 different locations, how will you tell with your system besides where it was born? Yours doesn't seem like it will work for foot and mouth.

How much faster can you search the total movements of an animal when you start at BOTH END OF ITS LIFE and work towards the middle????
When we started down the road to M"ID" we had nothing but now after alot of hard work by the INDUSTRY we HAVE RFID that can find the birthplace and age veritify by birthdate. Our system does have its limits BUT the meeting are already being called within the Canadian industry to review the plans designed for the next step which is FULL TRACEABILITY. So I pray we will have a workable industry driven system up and ready to go if and when we ever need it in a Foot and mouth investigation. The Canadian industry has in the past implement their system improvements as reactionary measure to what is going on in other countries. Our consumers see us succeed where others have failed (BSE investigations) and that is how we maintain consumer confidence both domestic and foreign. We have not sat back and rethought things until we are asking ourselves well what do we do now and how fast can we do it so we can get back what we lost because we sat back and waited until it was worth it. It is long past the time to sit back it is time to REACT and try save your industry from further damage.
 

Econ101

Well-known member
Tam:
Quote:
eCON:We need complete feed ban, not necessarily MID. MID is the packer program so they can get around the feed ban.
You do need a complete feed ban but since the PRODUCERS DON"T HAVE ONE and the USDA are finding the effects of not having one. The US PRODUCERS need M"ID" so all investigations for any reportable disease including BSE on the US CATTLE HERD can be concluded WITH POSITIVE RESULTS in a speedy manner, not this 6 to 8 weeks with no DEFINITIVE answers crap. Or don't you care that the consumers need to have confidence in the CATTLE THE US PRODUCERS ARE SELLING TO THE PACKERS, THAT ARE IN TURN SOLD TO THE CONSUMERS AS BEEF IF DEMANDS ARE TO STAY HIGH? Blame the packers eCON but if beef demands fall off because the USDA can't find the cattle of interest in a BSE investigation it will be the PRODUCERS fault because they refused to ID their cattle.

M"ID" is not about NCBA profits or packer profits it is about CONSUMER CONFIDENCE both domestic and Foreign and in a demand sensitive industry, consumer confidence is crucial to the success of ALL PRODUCERS. Stop blaming the USDA. the NCBA And the PACKERS and start TAKING RESPONCIBILITY FOR YOUR CATTLE BEFORE THERE IS NO CONSUMER CONFIDENCE LEFT IN THE US!!!!!!! Mad

Tam, the USDA may try to blame bse on producers for not going along with what the packers want them to go along with but who cares?

It is easy to see it is the USDA that is messing up this food safety deal from inaccurate bse testing to coverups to inspection mistakes and to lousy policy. The consumer confidence problem is not MID, it is about the USDA doing its mandated job of food safety. That baby belongs to the USDA/NCBA alone.

To have you even saying these things makes me wonder what world you live in. Some things will remain incredulous.

I think you just like to cause a ruckus.
 

Murgen

Well-known member
Tam, if you have foot and mouth and a steer up there that has been sold 3 times, moved to 2 different locations, how will you tell with your system besides where it was born? Yours doesn't seem like it will work for foot and mouth.

All sales are to be recorded! and that means salesbarns and private sales. Salesbarns have already been charged for not providing that information.
 

Sandhusker

Well-known member
Quote:
Sandhusker: The last ID program proposed by the USDA didn't go thru to the consumer - it stopped at the packer.


Tam, "Tell us Sandhusker ........."

Don't crab at me, Tam, I'm just stating a fact. I didn't write the dang thing.




Quote:
Sandhusker:Nothings stopping them. They can do it now.

Tam, "Again answer Tony's questions Can you trace an outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease if only 90% of livestock are in the system?"

M-ID isn't going to work worth a crap if we have an outbreak of foot-and-mouth, ask a vet.

Why don't you worry about your situation up there, Tam. We've got a shred of control and independence yet and we're tying to keep it. You've got a boat-load of problems that would be a better use for your time.
 
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