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The Return of the Ukrainian Far Right

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
This is who obama supports and Putin is trying to protect Crimea from.




http://www.academia.edu/2481420/_The_Return_of_the_Ukrainian_Far_Right_The_Case_of_VO_Svoboda_in_Ruth_Wodak_and_John_E._Richardson_eds._Analyzing_Fascist_Discourse_European_Fascism_in_Talk_and_Text_London_and_New_York_Routledge_2013_228-255
 

Steve

Well-known member
defining the sides in Ukraine based on WWII is not really accurate..

while there are many factions.. it comes down to Russia ruling over the Ukraine for a hell of a long time, while giving "Russian" citizens favorable treatment..

the Ukraine unfortunately sits between Russian and European power and is a pawn they muscle around to show the other side who is boss..

and now the people of the Ukraine are again fed up with getting shoved around like a pawn...

so if we get into this to help the Ukraine it isn't as much about the Ukraine as it is about putting Russia back in it's cage..
 

Mike

Well-known member
The Holodomor (Ukrainian: Голодомор, "Extermination by hunger" or "Hunger-extermination";[2] derived from 'Морити голодом', "Killing by Starvation" [3][4][5]) was a man-made famine in the Ukrainian SSR in 1932 and 1933.[6] During the famine, which is also known as the "Terror-Famine in Ukraine" and "Famine-Genocide in Ukraine",[7][8][9] millions of citizens of Ukrainian SSR, the majority of whom were Ukrainians, died of starvation in a peacetime catastrophe unprecedented in the history of Ukraine.[10] Since 2006, the Holodomor has been recognized by Ukraine and several other countries as a genocide of the Ukrainian people.[11]

Early estimates of the death toll by scholars and government officials varied greatly; anywhere from 1.8[12] to 12 million[13] ethnic Ukrainians were said to have perished as a result of the famine. Recent research has since narrowed the estimates to between 2.4[14] and 7.5[15] million. The exact number of deaths is hard to determine, due to a lack of records,[16][17] but the number increases significantly when the deaths inside heavily Ukrainian-populated Kuban are included.[18] Older estimates are still often cited in political commentary.[19] According to the decision of Kyiv Appellation Court, the demographic losses due to the famine amounted to 10 million, with 3.9 million famine deaths, and a 6.1 million birth deficit.[16]

Scholars disagree on the relative importance of natural factors and bad economic policies as causes of the famine and the degree to which the destruction of the Ukrainian peasantry was premeditated on the part of Joseph Stalin.[
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
The party was founded in 1991 as the Social-National Party of Ukraine (Ukrainian: Соціал-національна партія України), a reference to National Socialism.[10][11] Today Svoboda acts as a populist proponent of nationalism and anti-communism. It is positioned on the right of the Ukrainian political spectrum,[12][2][13][14][15] and has also been described as far-right,[16][4][17][18] fascistic or anti-semitic.[19][20][21][22][23][24][25][26]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VO_Svoboda
 

Steve

Well-known member
hypocritexposer said:
Steve, did you read the paper?

yes..

In the 2007 parliamentary elections, the party received 0.76% of the votes cast.

"the revolution will not end with the establishment of the Ukrainian state, but will go on to establish equal opportunities for all people to create and share material and spiritual values and in this respect the national revolution is also a social one"

Svoboda is known for its anti-communist stance

you are making the same mistake OT makes.. conflating past nationalistic nazi movements with current nationalistic trends..

the extremists in Ukraine are united in their hatred of Russia..

to say the sentiment is that of all Ukrainians would be like saying the TEA party agrees with skin heads..

I am not sure why some so called right wing groups are taking this stance.. but so far today I have removed my name from three groups..

there are anarchists in all societies.. and most claim to be nationalistic.. and liberals often make more out of them then they really are..

so why wouldn't an academic paper take a similar stance.. but looking at the sources.. and actual numbers shows this extreme view is held by less then a percentage point of the actual population..
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
Svoboda actually took 12% of the vote, in 2012, and were the main "protesters" that just overtook the government.

Ethnic Russians have reason to fear for their safety.

It was Svoboda that was responsible for the most iconic image to come out of Euromaidan: On December 8, masked protestors waving blue Svoboda flags and yelling “Hang the Commie!” toppled a 67-year-old statue of Vladimir Lenin in the city center. Svoboda leader Ihor Miroshnychenko, who has faced charges for pulling down a Lenin statue in another city, told journalists his party was responsible.

Svoboda is the most visible party on the square, it has essentially taken over Kiev City Hall as its base of operations, and it has a large influence in the protestors’ security forces.

It also has revived three slogans originating in the Ukrainian nationalist movement of the 1930s that have become the most popular chants at Euromaidan. Almost all speakers on Independence Square—even boxer-turned-opposition-leader Vitaly Klitschko, who has lived mostly in Germany and has a US residence permit—start and end with the slogan, “Glory to Ukraine!,” to which the crowd responds “To heroes glory!” Two other nationalist call-and-response slogans often heard on the square are “Glory to the nation! Death to enemies!” and “Ukraine above all!”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_%28political_party%29
 

Steve

Well-known member
hypocritexposer said:
Svoboda actually took 12% of the vote, in 2012, and were the main "protesters" that just overtook the government.

Ethnic Russians have reason to fear for their safety.

It was Svoboda that was responsible for the most iconic image to come out of Euromaidan: On December 8, masked protestors waving blue Svoboda flags and yelling “Hang the Commie!” toppled a 67-year-old statue of Vladimir Lenin in the city center. Svoboda leader Ihor Miroshnychenko, who has faced charges for pulling down a Lenin statue in another city, told journalists his party was responsible.

Svoboda is the most visible party on the square, it has essentially taken over Kiev City Hall as its base of operations, and it has a large influence in the protestors’ security forces.

It also has revived three slogans originating in the Ukrainian nationalist movement of the 1930s that have become the most popular chants at Euromaidan. Almost all speakers on Independence Square—even boxer-turned-opposition-leader Vitaly Klitschko, who has lived mostly in Germany and has a US residence permit—start and end with the slogan, “Glory to Ukraine!,” to which the crowd responds “To heroes glory!” Two other nationalist call-and-response slogans often heard on the square are “Glory to the nation! Death to enemies!” and “Ukraine above all!”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_%28political_party%29

I am not sure why you are hell bent on taking sides with Russia.. but over the last few decades ethnic Russians and Ukrainians have lived side by side without many if any clashes.. that was until Putin stuck his nose in their affairs..

the country is Ukraine.. not east Russia.. if Russians don't like it.. maybe they should move back to Russia..


as for fearing retaliation..

Let me give you an example..

if the illegal down the street sided with a Mexican invasion of the US.. he would be wise to fear for his safety..
 

Steve

Well-known member
It was Svoboda that was responsible for the most iconic image to come out of Euromaidan: On December 8, masked protestors waving blue Svoboda flags and yelling “Hang the Commie!” toppled a 67-year-old statue of Vladimir Lenin in the city center. Svoboda leader Ihor Miroshnychenko, who has faced charges for pulling down a Lenin statue in another city, told journalists his party was responsible.

Svoboda is the most visible party on the square, it has essentially taken over Kiev City Hall as its base of operations, and it has a large influence in the protestors’ security forces.

It also has revived three slogans originating in the Ukrainian nationalist movement of the 1930s that have become the most popular chants at Euromaidan. Almost all speakers on Independence Square—even boxer-turned-opposition-leader Vitaly Klitschko, who has lived mostly in Germany and has a US residence permit—start and end with the slogan, “Glory to Ukraine!,” to which the crowd responds “To heroes glory!” Two other nationalist call-and-response slogans often heard on the square are “Glory to the nation! Death to enemies!” and “Ukraine above all!”

gee how is that bad?

I don't blame them one bit for toppling that statue.. or singing national songs..

lenin ukraine genocide
However, their new-found freedom was short-lived. By the end of 1917, Vladimir Lenin, the first leader of the Soviet Union, sought to reclaim all of the areas formerly controlled by the Czars, especially the fertile Ukraine. As a result, four years of chaos and conflict followed in which Ukrainian national troops fought against Lenin's Red Army, and also against Russia's White Army (troops still loyal to the Czar) as well as other invading forces including the Germans and Poles.

By 1921, the battles ended with a Soviet victory while the western part of the Ukraine was divided-up among Poland, Romania, and Czechoslovakia. The Soviets immediately began shipping out huge amounts of grain to feed the hungry people of Moscow and other big Russian cities. Coincidentally, a drought occurred in the Ukraine, resulting in widespread starvation and a surge of popular resentment against Lenin and the Soviets.

But when Lenin died in 1924, he was succeeded by Joseph Stalin, one of the most ruthless humans ever to hold power. To Stalin, the burgeoning national revival movement and continuing loss of Soviet influence in the Ukraine was completely unacceptable. To crush the people's free spirit, he began to employ the same methods he had successfully used within the Soviet Union. Thus, beginning in 1929, over 5,000 Ukrainian scholars, scientists, cultural and religious leaders were arrested after being falsely accused of plotting an armed revolt. Those arrested were either shot without a trial or deported to prison camps in remote areas of Russia.

Stalin also imposed the Soviet system of land management known as collectivization. This resulted in the seizure of all privately owned farmlands and livestock, in a country where 80 percent of the people were traditional village farmers. Among those farmers, were a class of people called Kulaks by the Communists. They were formerly wealthy farmers that had owned 24 or more acres, or had employed farm workers. Stalin believed any future insurrection would be led by the Kulaks, thus he proclaimed a policy aimed at "liquidating the Kulaks as a class."

Declared "enemies of the people," the Kulaks were left homeless and without a single possession as everything was taken from them, even their pots and pans. It was also forbidden by law for anyone to aid dispossessed Kulak families. Some researchers estimate that ten million persons were thrown out of their homes, put on railroad box cars and deported to "special settlements" in the wilderness of Siberia during this era, with up to a third of them perishing amid the frigid living conditions. Men and older boys, along with childless women and unmarried girls, also became slave-workers in Soviet-run mines and big industrial projects.

Back in the Ukraine, once-proud village farmers were by now reduced to the level of rural factory workers on large collective farms. Anyone refusing to participate in the compulsory collectivization system was simply denounced as a Kulak and deported.

I hope you don't expect me to get upset over them toppling a statue of a commie and singing patriotic songs..

no considering how Russia treated the Ukraine.. the Russians are lucky the Ukrainians didn't try to shove the statue up someones' ---
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
the Nazis toppled statues of commies too. Their were many Countries that intitially supported them, because they did not support commies.

should we jump to support those that topple Jewish statues, without first finding out why?

Is Russia any more communist now, than the US, or Canada?

Remember, that I believe both communism and fascism are both collective ideologies, which are both destructive and a tool of the left, to suppress all man.

But, in fighting one, you sometimes have to leverage the other.
 

Steve

Well-known member
hypocritexposer said:
the Nazis toppled statues of commies too. Their were many Countries that intitially supported them, because they did not support commies.

should we jump to support those that topple Jewish statues, without first finding out why?

Is Russia any more communist now, than the US, or Canada?

Remember, that I believe both communism and fascism are both collective ideologies, which are both destructive and a tool of the left, to suppress all man.

But, in fighting one, you sometimes have to leverage the other.

I fail to see how the Ukraine can be nazi.. yet modern Germany isn't?

should we just give Germany back to Russia as well?

your argument do not make any sense.. so what if a small.. (less the one percent) of the population really hates communists..

I am not so fond of communists either..
 

Steve

Well-known member
hypocritexposer said:
Investigate the protesters a bit more. I'm done arguing.

Russians bad, extreme ultranationalists good...I understand.

I am not concerned with or on the protestors side.. usually to go to the lengths they went to you either have to be radical.. or have nothing left to lose..



I am on the side of the free independent nation of the Ukraine and all of it's people.
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
Steve said:
hypocritexposer said:
Investigate the protesters a bit more. I'm done arguing.

Russians bad, extreme ultranationalists good...I understand.

I am not concerned with or on the protestors side.. usually to go to the lengths they went to you either have to be radical.. or have nothing left to lose..



I am on the side of the free independent nation of the Ukraine and all of it's people.

Great, the independents won...the protesters, 1% of the population, did not have any impact, by burning buildings and threatening death on those citizens that did not agree with them.

Democracy won!
 

Steve

Well-known member
hypocritexposer said:
Steve said:
hypocritexposer said:
Investigate the protesters a bit more. I'm done arguing.

Russians bad, extreme ultranationalists good...I understand.

I am not concerned with or on the protestors side.. usually to go to the lengths they went to you either have to be radical.. or have nothing left to lose..



I am on the side of the free independent nation of the Ukraine and all of it's people.

Great, the independents won...the protesters, 1% of the population, did not have any impact, by burning buildings and threatening death on those citizens that did not agree with them.

Democracy won!

nope... the Russians invaded.. that really can't be democracy..

but I guess you missed the part where the parliament impeached the last president and is setting up a new elections..
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
Steve said:
hypocritexposer said:
Steve said:
I am not concerned with or on the protestors side.. usually to go to the lengths they went to you either have to be radical.. or have nothing left to lose..



I am on the side of the free independent nation of the Ukraine and all of it's people.

Great, the independents won...the protesters, 1% of the population, did not have any impact, by burning buildings and threatening death on those citizens that did not agree with them.

Democracy won!

nope... the Russians invaded.. that really can't be democracy..

but I guess you missed the part where the parliament impeached the last president and is setting up a new elections..

they impeached him after he was overthrown.

I would impeach a President too, with a gun to my head.
 
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