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The terrorists have won

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Disagreeable

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Our government is wiretapping citizens without warrants and keeping US citizens in jail without counsel or charges for several years. Thanks to George W. Bush, the terrorists have won in taking some of our basic civil rights. For shame. Link below.

"President Bush has personally authorized a secretive eavesdropping program in the United States more than three dozen times since October 2001, a senior intelligence official said Friday night.
The disclosure follows angry demands by lawmakers earlier in the day for a congressional inquiry into whether the monitoring by the highly secretive National Security Agency violated civil liberties.
“There is no doubt that this is inappropriate,” declared Republican Sen. Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee. He promised hearings early next year
."


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10488458/
 

Itrap4u

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Disagreeable are you the left spokes person for ranchers net? I look at all your postings and there all anti Bush. You claim all the fraud on iraq elections, yet like a good liberial you deny all the good that will come from them being out from under the tirant Saddam and have a democratic nation? See the left right now must bring up all the side issues they can to cover up all the good that is going on in the US and overseas, lowest unemployment in many years, a strong economy one doing better than most anyalist predicted, a country voting in an election that 10 years ago no one ever thought would happen.

You bring up wire tapping, he is not misusing his authority on this, and he does have the right durring WAR Time, to do wire tapping from calls overseas to the US, "most" good liberials want you to think the tapping is from US city to US city not the case!!!! Also 36 times calls were monitered since 2001? Figure how many millions of phone calls are logged each day and tell me the % that works out to be? I wouldn't call that an abuse of power but a well thought out plan to get information on terrorist and what there next move may be.

Have we all forgotten 9/11 ? We were attacked on our soil and we must defend from this type of thing happing again, if wire tapping will help gather information to keep the people and children of the US safe then by all means do it, as long is there is no real abuse of it. I don't see 36 tapping sessions as abuse in 4 years time span. Also did most know cell phones and cordless phones can be picked up and listened too on a 150.00 scanner? Why don't we seek a ban on all scanners in the US, as all that own one are stepping on your rights and mine by listening to cell phone calls and cordless phone calls.
 

katrina

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Itrap4u,
Disagreeable is antiamerican, antimilitary, antibush, antireligion. She is proterrorist, projane fonda, prokerry, prokennedy, proanything that represents the USA. Instead of disagreeable it should be disgusting.
 

mp.freelance

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Disagreeable said:
Our government is wiretapping citizens without warrants and keeping US citizens in jail without counsel or charges for several years. Thanks to George W. Bush, the terrorists have won in taking some of our basic civil rights. For shame. Link below.

Everytime you say "for shame" it's like fingernails on a chalkboard. Good job in being both annoying and pompous. Try using some different vocabulary, and maybe everyone won't find you so obnoxious. Oh wait, I forgot... that's why you post here: to get your masochistic satisfaction. Carry on, then, I suppose.
 

mp.freelance

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stevec said:
Generally, people hang themselves on their own words, and only later do they come to realize their errors.

Good prediction of the realization you'll someday come to... unless, of course, you go so far over the edge that you end up having conversations with your collection of porcelain elves. Or are you already at that stage?
 

Steve

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citizens without warrants and keeping US citizens

you claim to assume they are US citizens, are they?

what makes a US citizen,,,Birth,,,allegance to country,,,,

or a piece of paper?

An applicant must have been lawfully admitted to the United States for permanent residence.

An applicant must show that he or she has been a person of good moral character for the statutory period.

An applicant must show that he or she is attached to the principles of the Constitution of the United States.

Applicants for naturalization must be able to read, write, speak, and understand words in ordinary usage in the English language.

An applicant for naturalization must demonstrate a knowledge and understanding of the fundamentals of the history and of the principles and form of government of the United States.

Oath of Allegiance

To become a citizen, one must take the oath of allegiance. By doing so, an applicant swears to:

* support the Constitution and obey the laws of the U.S.;
* renounce any foreign allegiance and/or foreign title; and
* bear arms for the Armed Forces of the U.S. or perform services for the government of the U.S. when required.

What will exclude you from being of Good Moral charactor:

"has given false testimony, under oath, in order to receive a benefit under the Immigration and Nationality Act."

Seems to me if they have violated the OATH by plotting to do harm to the US and it's lawful citizens, they are not US Citizens and not entitled to protection under MY Constitution.........

Oath of Allegiance



The oath of allegiance is:

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

So maybe you could show how these so called Good Moral US citizens that are plotting our destruction deserve to be protected by our constitution? Because by way of Plotting they have violated the oath and requirements that afforded them US Citizenship...and by law would be stripped of the US citizenship.......
 

Itrap4u

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While Disagreeable may be too politicized in some statements, the fact that Bush, Powell and others have stated wiretaps are within "the rule of law" should give most observers a sense of how distorted someone can twist the most obvious language of principles for expedient policies.


If you look you will see he is using the power given to him and many presidents before him under the law! There is no breech of law and many lawyers have proclaimed this, so disagreeable is free to speak opinions but I like mine to be backed with facts! Why would the President of the US in using his power to defeat terriorist attacks need the ok from a judge to do a wire tap? Yet then people would say it's ok because a judge gave him the power to do so? Why does a judge have the overiding authority of the President? It seems like a nice jesture on the outside but were dealing with groups of people that want us all dead and a end to freedom. Disagreeable says the terroist have won, I say handcuff the people and tools we need to defeat them and they will win 100% of the time. We have been winning since 9/11 we have had no attacks on US soil, and it is because of the patriot act and the ability to trace people and calls, not because the white house is doing the wire taps.

Show me abuse of this and then you have a discussion, until then if the federal government needs to listen to me talk to my mother so be it! Which isn't the case as they know who and when to listen too.
 

Cal

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Disagreeable said:
Our government is wiretapping citizens without warrants and keeping US citizens in jail without counsel or charges for several years. Thanks to George W. Bush, the terrorists have won in taking some of our basic civil rights. For shame. Link below.

"President Bush has personally authorized a secretive eavesdropping program in the United States more than three dozen times since October 2001, a senior intelligence official said Friday night.
The disclosure follows angry demands by lawmakers earlier in the day for a congressional inquiry into whether the monitoring by the highly secretive National Security Agency violated civil liberties.
“There is no doubt that this is inappropriate,” declared Republican Sen. Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee. He promised hearings early next year
."


Name a President in modern history that hasn't authorized and used wire taps. If we happen to be attacked again the first thing the left will do is rant and bitch about Bush "not doing everything in his power to protect us". From what I can gather, most, if not all, of the eavesdropping is al-Qaeda suspects from within this country making and recieving calls to and from overseas. So your headline "The terrorists have won" ?? :roll: is ridiculous yet predictable. Get a grip.
 

jigs

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as usual Dis, your lips are a flappin, but all I hear is blah blah blah
 

Disagreeable

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Cal said:
Disagreeable said:
Our government is wiretapping citizens without warrants and keeping US citizens in jail without counsel or charges for several years. Thanks to George W. Bush, the terrorists have won in taking some of our basic civil rights. For shame. Link below.

"President Bush has personally authorized a secretive eavesdropping program in the United States more than three dozen times since October 2001, a senior intelligence official said Friday night.
The disclosure follows angry demands by lawmakers earlier in the day for a congressional inquiry into whether the monitoring by the highly secretive National Security Agency violated civil liberties.
“There is no doubt that this is inappropriate,” declared Republican Sen. Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee. He promised hearings early next year
."


Name a President in modern history that hasn't authorized and used wire taps. If we happen to be attacked again the first thing the left will do is rant and bitch about Bush "not doing everything in his power to protect us". From what I can gather, most, if not all, of the eavesdropping is al-Qaeda suspects from within this country making and recieving calls to and from overseas. So your headline "The terrorists have won" ?? :roll: is ridiculous yet predictable. Get a grip.

Show me a president in modern history that authorized wire taps on American citizens in the US without a warrant?

It doesn't matter a bit if "most, if not all" of the eavesdropping is al Qaeda suspects. "Suspects" doesn't give our law enforcemnt the right to walk over our civil rights. If we give up our civil liberties to protect ourselves from the terrorists, they have won.

They've been eavesdropping on a Quaker group that's against the war. A group of retired Quakers. Does anyone seriously think Quakers would commit a terrorist act? While I don't like (to put it mildly) PETA, they're not a terrorist group and they've been wiretapped. ALF and ELF are on the terrorist watchlist, but not PETA. If nothing else, they're wasting millions of dollars.

And, last, but not least, President Bush has the secret court, set up especially for these situations. He can order a wiretap and wait 72 hours to request a warrant! But he refused to use that court. There's no excuse for his actions.
 

Disagreeable

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jigs said:
as usual Dis, your lips are a flappin, but all I hear is blah blah blah

And, as usual, Jigs, when you don't have any facts to argue, you insult.
 

Disagreeable

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Itrap4u said:
While Disagreeable may be too politicized in some statements, the fact that Bush, Powell and others have stated wiretaps are within "the rule of law" should give most observers a sense of how distorted someone can twist the most obvious language of principles for expedient policies.


If you look you will see he is using the power given to him and many presidents before him under the law! There is no breech of law and many lawyers have proclaimed this, so disagreeable is free to speak opinions but I like mine to be backed with facts! Why would the President of the US in using his power to defeat terriorist attacks need the ok from a judge to do a wire tap? Yet then people would say it's ok because a judge gave him the power to do so? Why does a judge have the overiding authority of the President? It seems like a nice jesture on the outside but were dealing with groups of people that want us all dead and a end to freedom. Disagreeable says the terroist have won, I say handcuff the people and tools we need to defeat them and they will win 100% of the time. We have been winning since 9/11 we have had no attacks on US soil, and it is because of the patriot act and the ability to trace people and calls, not because the white house is doing the wire taps.

Show me abuse of this and then you have a discussion, until then if the federal government needs to listen to me talk to my mother so be it! Which isn't the case as they know who and when to listen too.

Under out legal system, authorities must ask for a warrent before they can eavesdrop on our conversations. Even though Bush has a special court set up specifically for quick reaction to get wiretaps, he refused to use it. You've been listening to the Bush Buch claiming that Bush has that authority. Let me ask you this: will it be ok for Hillary to have that authority if she's our next president?

This Administration apparently wants us to give up our freedoms to be "safe." That's not acceptable to me. Maybe you should check with your mother and see how she feels about having her phone conversations overheard by our government? You might be surprised.
 

Disagreeable

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Steve said:
citizens without warrants and keeping US citizens

you claim to assume they are US citizens, are they?

what makes a US citizen,,,Birth,,,allegance to country,,,,

or a piece of paper?

An applicant must have been lawfully admitted to the United States for permanent residence.

An applicant must show that he or she has been a person of good moral character for the statutory period.

An applicant must show that he or she is attached to the principles of the Constitution of the United States.

Applicants for naturalization must be able to read, write, speak, and understand words in ordinary usage in the English language.

An applicant for naturalization must demonstrate a knowledge and understanding of the fundamentals of the history and of the principles and form of government of the United States.

Oath of Allegiance

To become a citizen, one must take the oath of allegiance. By doing so, an applicant swears to:

* support the Constitution and obey the laws of the U.S.;
* renounce any foreign allegiance and/or foreign title; and
* bear arms for the Armed Forces of the U.S. or perform services for the government of the U.S. when required.

What will exclude you from being of Good Moral charactor:

"has given false testimony, under oath, in order to receive a benefit under the Immigration and Nationality Act."

Seems to me if they have violated the OATH by plotting to do harm to the US and it's lawful citizens, they are not US Citizens and not entitled to protection under MY Constitution.........

Oath of Allegiance



The oath of allegiance is:

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

So maybe you could show how these so called Good Moral US citizens that are plotting our destruction deserve to be protected by our constitution? Because by way of Plotting they have violated the oath and requirements that afforded them US Citizenship...and by law would be stripped of the US citizenship.......

Steve, I do believe you've gone over the edge on this one.
 

Disagreeable

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Itrap4u said:
Disagreeable are you the left spokes person for ranchers net? I look at all your postings and there all anti Bush. You claim all the fraud on iraq elections, yet like a good liberial you deny all the good that will come from them being out from under the tirant Saddam and have a democratic nation? See the left right now must bring up all the side issues they can to cover up all the good that is going on in the US and overseas, lowest unemployment in many years, a strong economy one doing better than most anyalist predicted, a country voting in an election that 10 years ago no one ever thought would happen.

I've never denied Saddam was a murderous tyrant. Iraq is not on it's way to becoming a democratic nation. Iraq is on it's way to falling apart. Thousands of Iraqis are marching in the streets, demanding new elections because of voter fraud.

You bring up wire tapping, he is not misusing his authority on this, and he does have the right durring WAR Time, to do wire tapping from calls overseas to the US, "most" good liberials want you to think the tapping is from US city to US city not the case!!!! Also 36 times calls were monitered since 2001? Figure how many millions of phone calls are logged each day and tell me the % that works out to be? I wouldn't call that an abuse of power but a well thought out plan to get information on terrorist and what there next move may be.

He's not just wiretapping calls from or to overseas. He's also picking up totally domestic calls. Oh, I think he's misusing his autority and so does Arlen Spector, Republican Senator, who has called for hearings. It doesn't matter if it's only one phone call! A principal is a principal. I have the right to not have the government listening to my conversations. They have the right to get a warrant and listen. Bush has a special court just for quick reaction wiretaps. He refused to use it. Why?

Have we all forgotten 9/11 ? We were attacked on our soil and we must defend from this type of thing happing again, if wire tapping will help gather information to keep the people and children of the US safe then by all means do it, as long is there is no real abuse of it. I don't see 36 tapping sessions as abuse in 4 years time span. Also did most know cell phones and cordless phones can be picked up and listened too on a 150.00 scanner? Why don't we seek a ban on all scanners in the US, as all that own one are stepping on your rights and mine by listening to cell phone calls and cordless phone calls.

I haven't forgotten 9./11, but I haven't forgotten our Constitution either. I don't agree that giving up our libertie to be "safe" is acceptable. You may be willing to give up your rights, how about your children's rights? Will you be so accepting if Hillary Clinton is the next president?
 

Steve

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They've been eavesdropping on a Quaker group that's against the war. A group of retired Quakers. Does anyone seriously think Quakers would commit a terrorist act? While I don't like (to put it mildly) PETA, they're not a terrorist group and they've been wiretapped. ALF and ELF are on the terrorist watchlist, but not PETA. If nothing else, they're wasting millions of dollars.

are these the secret files? , did they get warrents? or did you just make this up?

while no one actually knows how many warrentless wire taps there were these appear to have been survalances that would even by your own defination "required a warrent" to wire tap.... but again you are making stuff up to say the President is doing this illigally,,,

any proof?

or is he guilty with out a trial again?
 

Disagreeable

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Steve said:
They've been eavesdropping on a Quaker group that's against the war. A group of retired Quakers. Does anyone seriously think Quakers would commit a terrorist act? While I don't like (to put it mildly) PETA, they're not a terrorist group and they've been wiretapped. ALF and ELF are on the terrorist watchlist, but not PETA. If nothing else, they're wasting millions of dollars.

are these the secret files? , did they get warrents? or did you just make this up?

while no one actually knows how many warrentless wire taps there were these appear to have been survalances that would even by your own defination "required a warrent" to wire tap.... but again you are making stuff up to say the President is doing this illigally,,,

any proof?

or is he guilty with out a trial again?

"South Florida's anti-war activists are few in number. Many are retirees, veterans or students. They carry puppets, wave placards or hand out pamphlets to potential military recruits.

But these activities have been labeled a "threat" by the Defense Department. Local peace-mongers, like many around the country, have come under surveillance by the Pentagon.
"I'm disabled, I'm 59 and if I'm a credible threat to the government of the United States, then either the government is terribly paranoid or terribly weak," said Rich Hersh of Boca Raton, whose group, the Truth Project, has come under federal scrutiny.

The military's domestic surveillance was disclosed this week in a report on NBC Nightly News, which obtained a 400-page Department of Defense document outlining the surveillance of peace groups. Acting on a complaint from the Truth Project, Florida Sen. Bill Nelson posted a letter Wednesday to Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, demanding an accounting."


http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-cspy15dec15,0,5523802.story?coll=sfla-home-headlines
 

Itrap4u

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Disagreeable were is the proof to these alligations of our President listening to you talk to your friends? Also their is a thing called war and terror and that in certain cases needs to be dealt with in a different way, look how many have exploited information on the war only to put our troops into harms way!!! Why would they trust some judge to keep things hush hush all the time?
Also you know that cell phone and wire less phones can be listened to anyone with a scanner? Were are your rights then? Lets put an end to all cell phones and cordless phones because they in themselves infringe on our priavacy do they not?

Actually steve Peta has been found to have given ALF much in the way of money to keep them going and stepping all over the rights and freedoms of people, yet you say the wiretapping is wrong, but okay for ALF to tresspass and come acts of violance aginst others and their property?
 

Disagreeable

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Itrap4u said:
Disagreeable were is the proof to these alligations of our President listening to you talk to your friends? Also their is a thing called war and terror and that in certain cases needs to be dealt with in a different way, look how many have exploited information on the war only to put our troops into harms way!!! Why would they trust some judge to keep things hush hush all the time?

I don't know if Bush is listening on my phone. But he has said he's approved warrantless wiretaps. Those wiretaps have interecepted some totally domestic calls, not international calls. "They" should trust a judge because that's what judges do.

Also you know that cell phone and wire less phones can be listened to anyone with a scanner? Were are your rights then? Lets put an end to all cell phones and cordless phones because they in themselves infringe on our priavacy do they not?

Unwarranted information coming from cell phones and wireless phones is not acceptable in court. I see today that lawyers for some accused terrorist are going to try to find out if their clients were wiretapped without a warrant. Wouldn't that be a kicker: those guys get off because Bush refused to follow the law?

Actually steve Peta has been found to have given ALF much in the way of money to keep them going and stepping all over the rights and freedoms of people, yet you say the wiretapping is wrong, but okay for ALF to tresspass and come acts of violance aginst others and their property?

Yes, PETA has been found to give ALF or ELF money. But PETA, itself is not on the goverment watch list. ALF and ELF are. So is it worthwhile to monitor PETA's phones? I doubt it. And certainly not the Quakers.
 

Cal

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Disagreeable:
Show me a president in modern history that authorized wire taps on American citizens in the US without a warrant?

From what I've heard on radio, every President from Jimmy Carter to present.
 

Steve

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Actually steve Peta has been found to have given ALF much in the way of money to keep them going and stepping all over the rights and freedoms of people, yet you say the wiretapping is wrong, but okay for ALF to tresspass and come acts of violance aginst others and their property?

Must have gotten me on the wrong side of the debate,....I would not defend Peta (can deport them to as far as I'm concerned) :lol: :lol:

I was just saying that they and the other wacko groups are an American problem are not part of the International wire tapping that disagreeable claims is watching her.....so if they were wire tapped they would, by law have been a warrant issued....

The fact that peta is a tax exemtp org. even irks me....but by Dis useing them as an example shows how twisted her allegations can be......
 

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