• If you are having problems logging in please use the Contact Us in the lower right hand corner of the forum page for assistance.

Things I have done and maybe you also...Are they abuse?

Help Support Ranchers.net:

PPRM

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
1,964
Reaction score
11
Location
NE Oregon
Some of the threads had me thinking back to times I have done things when it seemed the only option to me.......Some of you may be quick to jump on it, maybe I can cite some examples that may make you think as well...

I had a friend with no facilities exceot a corner pst. He had an old Glebvieh/Saler cross cow that had huge bottle tits and wasn't feeding a calf. He had to do something...I don't remember how it got on there, as I am sure we roped her to get her to that corner...But she had a Halter on and we snubbed her up close....

As Bob Milked her, she would keep kicking and would occasionally walk over him with her hind end. She would kick a calf off as well.....

I could see we werent going to gt the calf milk or someone was going to get hurt. What I did is never my first or even second choice, but it is effective. Basically, get her to focus on something else so she can quit knocking the milk pail over or mauling over the calf or guy with her hind end....

A vet had taught me a trick, or maybe it was an old cowboy. Basically, a thumb in one eye and she forgot all about what was going on around her udders. She stood there like a twitched horse. Long term, I did nothing to irrepairibly cause any harm, the calf got stronger and she eventually raised the calf and let anyone that would milk her....

I have done the same or even used my thumbs as "nose tongs" in a cows nose in a chute when she was windmilling her head and potentially going to hurt someone...

BTW, the guy kept the cow and ran into the same problem the next year. I refused to help him again, LOL...

Ever grabbed a fold of a horses skin to "Nerve twitch them"? A vet showed me this with a mare in a horse stock that maybe was going to get hurt with all her fussing around....


My two examples are not to defend nor run anyone down....Just as I read through the threads, there are things I have done and never thought twice about......In both of these cases, definetly were trying to help the animal and keep people from getting hurt....As I read other threads I thought of these things and just wndered....


PPRM
 

Turkey Track Bar

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
1,665
Reaction score
0
Location
North Central SD, South Central ND
In my opinion, no and no, but that is my opinion, which is what started this wreck to begin with, so don't take much stock in it.

Twitching and sticking fingers in the nose are so common. I even think someone (Temple Grandin?) has done research on both practices and said both have relaxing effect. Heck we are doctoring on a yearling filly right now and we twitched her yesterday using our bare hands.

One thing, PPRM, you don't seem to awfully proud that you had to use the eye trick on the cow. Maybe that is the big difference?

I probably wouldn't tell your eye story at the Farmer's Market...your customers might not take so kindly to it. :wink:

Cheers---

TTB :wink:

Edited for grammar and spelling!
 

Denny

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
5,624
Reaction score
0
Location
Mn usa
I've got so soft in recent years that I will slow down for mice and such outside NOT inside but all creatures have a purpose and it's not my duty to kill them or teach them all manners.If a cow is a habitual problem send her to town.I someone chooses to keep these rough cattle they should have the proper equipment to handle them.

Copenhagen is'nt a tool.Good fences corrals and chutes are.

I've got plenty of wrecks I could tell but they are'nt real exciteing being I'm a farmer and all.

Heres one that happened a

Month ago we were doctoring cows for footrot when done I was coiling up my rope and the cow was on the fight so I went to chase her off and she came chargeing my horse spun to get out of her way and got a steel t-post rammed up between his back legs (An old dairy farms remnants of a electric fence)Well he blew up and I got bucked off pretty hard landed head first.Dan Mortenson would have had his hands full with that horse then.I got up quick because that old cow had a new target I got away and the horse was fine but if I would have just rode away after we were done the whole problem could have been avoided.

Sometimes as humans we bring on alot of our problems ourselves either with our words or our actions.

There is a fine line between neccessary and cruel a person needs to know the differance.

Take for instance where this whole problem began (A wild cow in a wild country)If all is true most likely those cows may see humans a couple times a year a person can not expect tame cattle that are left to their own vices for survival.Basically this fellow was working with a wild animal much like a deer or elk with those conditions you had better expect some resistance from the prey and copenhagen in they eye was cruelty not neccessary if it does'nt really hurt than why did it need to be done.

I like animals most likely more than I do people I'm not perfect and I do lose my temper but its a flash deal and its over I don't stew and brew to come up with something creul.And if I do something cruel I will not be bragging to the masses about it.

As far as cows that wont feed calves I just run them in the chute or tie their head up and then I tie one back foot up enough she cant kick the calf and let them nurse.Although since we calve in bigger pastures now and leave the cattle alone it has'nt been much of a problem.
 

PPRM

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
1,964
Reaction score
11
Location
NE Oregon
Denny.

I choose which ones die weekly when I sort the calves for Tyson of my beef program......And when I am deciding on replacements and if to cull or not......


The few little tricks I know I have generally learned by being around guys that have worked "Wild Cattle"....That is the kind of country I grew up in (Wallowa County in Oregon). Hells canyon country.....You come accross something in Hells Canyon that needs help and likely there won't be a nearby Chute...

I have seen knot headed cattle tied to a tree, when you come back, they herd up usually for life....

On another thread I described bunching up about 35 Put together broken mouth pairs with very different tempermants....Some runoffs and some so dead you had to get on them to make them go....The hard part was when I got them to the 10 foot gate in the corner, it was where an electric fence usually is wired. I had to shut it off and open it up....

Those cows had been "Bit" by that hot wire enough that they wanted nothing to do with that corner. On our side, there s a lot of great grass and thier side it is gone....But you couldn't get them through.....So, try to keep these runoffs bunched, just does not want to happen.....But I did it...

Yet, I wanted to do it alone as most of my help are really 4-wheeler kind of guys with no patience and these cows woulda been runoff. Also, these pastures are irrigated with Flood Irrigation. There is a well known fella around here that ended up in the hospitlal when his 4 wheeler hit a ditch as he chased a runoff. LOL, side note, this is not a commentary on 4 wheeler guys, it is just why I hesitate to combine gathering cows with inexperienced cattle folks on 4 wheelers...

I spent at least 45 minutes holding those cows in that corner....They would not see the gate......The runoffs were the most challenging...Yet, once they got through the gate, I let them graze easily as we headed to my corrals.A good reward as they hadn't seen tat good of grass for awhile....

From that point on, those cattle watched me to see where I wanted them to go....They moved as a bunch and sorted easy...

The reason I mention this is had I been on a crew, we mighta roped one cow in particluar to hold her with the herd. Basically, as they run off, you dally and let them choke themselves down....As they get cooperative you give them slack...It really is not a lot different than breaking a show steer to lead....Reward and release....just not a Halter

I just did it with no ropes that day, but it was way longer.....

Actuallly, Denny, as this whole subject has been broached, I thought about something you and I enjoy a lot. Team Roping.......What positive thing are we doing for that animal that makes that ok to do?

Just a thought,

PPRM
 

rkaiser

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2005
Messages
1,958
Reaction score
0
Location
Calgary Alberta
We became the worlds top predator since we learned how to use tools, and it's a darn good thing; or we would have been gone a few hundred thousand years ago.

Yes we can all say we have lost our temper and done something we regret, and the first part of that is something that good old cows could say if they could say too. But regretting isn't part of their life, only survival and the fear of that predator that they cannot hope to predict.

Every story of a rancher having to do something with a tool or two to change the attitude of a beast is always - and I mean always - about that rancher or ranch hand getting out thought by a smarter individual. One who is only figuring out how to survive and would always win out over that silly human if he/ she didn't have a tool or two at his/her disposal. Does a cow truly know when we are trying to help them?

Yes we have to survive too, and we always have the option of handing the head of our opponent over to a packer. (and no I don't really mean that in a derogatory way). But rancher or ranch hand, I have to agree with old Hayshaker and say that we need to hold utmost respect for these beasts that are ultimately giving their lives for our monetary survival.

Ever heard of atravet? Calming cows or cutting cats the results are the same sort of dreamlike state.
 

Denny

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
5,624
Reaction score
0
Location
Mn usa
We have a cow that would always run off she's plumb mean in a small pen but after one time of being on a rope for a 1/4 mile to the trailer she has alot better manners.She's still high headed but she stays with the herd.I have a daughter from her that is almost a pet she's so tame direct opposite.I have about a 1/2 dozen of these rank cows I put up with them as I would'nt feel right selling them to someone else and they produce pretty good calves they are around 7 now so they will weed themselves out soon enough.They all came as a group as bred heifers from a ranch in ND where motorcycles were used daily no horses.

We leased 10 longhorn roping steers in may and I have'nt backed my horse into the box yet this summer to busy with everything else.I have'nt roped an arena steer in 2 years since I broke my hip I've kinda lost interest in it.Now pasture roping thats a good time.
 

flrooster

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
156
Reaction score
0
Location
sumter co,fl
i have to agree,we've all done things i'm sure someone not knowing anything about cattle would consider abuse on the other hand i have been abused by cows alot more than i care to remember.sometimes you have to work with what you've got handy but it seems to me when you can afford a little patience and study you can generally get it done with no harm on either side.like the man said that taught me about mules,the first rule of training is to be a little smarter than the mule.my 2cents for what it's worth.
 

PPRM

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
1,964
Reaction score
11
Location
NE Oregon
fl,

I have thought about it a lot......


That bunc of cows i was sorting calves off of, with a good crew we might of roped and a runoff cow and let her choke herself anytim she choose not to cooperate while the rest of the crew held the bunch...Eventually she would learn life is easier in the bunch...Is it crueler to each her that lesson she is no worse the wear for??? Or......to have her life ended and shipped off?????

But, the flip side is I took the time and go the same result by myself with no ropes.....

Yes, a of of things can be prevented if you take the time to think them ot. But, occassionally, there is a cow the respects nothing until she runs into it and loses.....It is not the first thing you try, and it should be businesslike enough...

I can think of a young stud colt I led through a gate. I was fiddling with the latch and suddenly felt a front hoof on my shoulder..He was trying to mount me.....My instincts kicked in and I spun out from that and kicked him in the belly about three times......It ended there and he has never tried anything since...

Was that cruel? Hmmm...I compare that to what some mares and older geldings have done when he got outta line and do not think so.....

Do I regret the thumb in the eye on that cow that was being ignorant? It got the job done and the calf was saved. Her foolishness never elevated and she was none the worse for wear.....

Like I said, I am thinking about a lot of things at this point and thinking outloud more than anything....

I posed this to Denny, but notice a lot of Rodeo fans as well as i.......I did those things in order to make the animals life easierand people safer that were trying to help long term....How does rping a calf or bulldogging a steer at a Rodeo better the animals life and why is that more accpetable? Or, is it?

Just a question,

PPRM
 

flrooster

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
156
Reaction score
0
Location
sumter co,fl
i agree with you knocking one down may not be the first choice but sometimes it seems to be all they understand.i dont think anybody here has ever done the damage to an animal that they will do to each other.is picking up a board to stop two studs from fighting cruel?as far as that goes we are all in the business to make money,injured livestock costs not pays and it takes a fool to take money out of your own pocket,or the bossman's around here the fellows that cripple too many of the boss'es critters find the road pretty quick.as far as rodeo goes again i think its not done to cause injury,i have seen a couple of guys in my time that would try to break a neck on a sour roping calf but again they don't last very long.i like to think most of us are above abuse but as you said there are times you have to be "firm".i would enjoy hearing more of everybody's thoughts on this.
 

efb

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 9, 2005
Messages
485
Reaction score
1
Location
Northeast Texas
I think the difference we are talking about here is ATTITUDE :!:

When how rough you can be with livestock adds to your MACHO, that
tells all we need to know about you. I think that is what caused the wreck on this site. One individual constantly building himself up by how macho he was, because his country and stock was rougher and wilder and harder than anyone elses, and therefor he was better and more MACHO than anyone else.
 

katrina

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2005
Messages
8,773
Reaction score
2
Location
East north east of Soapweed
I have twisted some ears from time to time and we've had cows we couldn't handle that we used the tractor on........ All in all we try and be as humane as we can.... It's no fun being mean to an animal... I think it's really a bunch of hoopla for nothing and it's Monday and time to move on..
 

PPRM

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
1,964
Reaction score
11
Location
NE Oregon
Interesting, I posted tis seperate from "The other threads" rather than scabbing onto them because I thought there is a legitmate issue to talk about seperate from any likes or dislikes of az or anyone else. It is when and what is allowable.....

When I first worked in a feedlot, a guy i worked with would laughingly chew my ass when I hit the fence with a pissed off calf...We ocasionally got those cattle that hadn't seen people for awhile....He' yell out, "Now you've just trained him to get away with it!" and roll laughing...

Some of that stuck....And look back on my life...When i was in the 7th grade a nieghbor had a hiefer and her calf in a barn. She wasn't taking the calf. All I know is he'd go in several times a day with a 2x4 and the calf started sucking. The minute she raised a hind foot, he'd raise the 2 x 4 and she would set the foot down....

It was obvious she had had that board accross her brow...Was there better ways? I think so, but it was effective and too long ago for me to really remember the circumstances or options....

I question these things all the time, just as I am always trying to find better ways...

Well, there I go again, more examples........When all I really was saying is i think there are some legitimate threads on the issue seperate from any opinions people may or may not have on az.....

PPRM
 

3waycross

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 3, 2007
Messages
186
Reaction score
0
Location
Colorado
Had a 3yr old gelding once that we tried to load in the trailer for the better part of 2 hours. After a lot of damage to the trailer , and us ,and the colt we got enough of it and threw a rope around his neck a half hitch over his nose , ran the rope thru the window in the front of the trailer and drug him in with the pickup

Only trouble we ever had after that was if you left the trailer open he would climb in and stay in there for hours. Seems like he maybe learned something?

I'm not saying we liked hurting him, we were just tired of his bull---t, and him hurting us. Of course there was no internet in 1968 so we had very little opportunity to do a lot of braggin about it.
 

Kato

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
2,679
Reaction score
0
Location
Manitoba - At the end of the road
There aren't too many problem animals that you can't outhink if you just sit down and ponder for a while.

I had a filly once who would be constantly nipping and trying to chew on my arm when I led her. Slapping her on the nose wasn't going to accomplish much, because I figured it would make her headshy. After a bit of thought, I went to the shed, got a nail, and took her for a walk. I carried the nail in my hand with about a quarter inch of nail sticking out. Every time she tried to take a nip, she stuck herself with the sharp nail. I never moved my hand toward her, or egged her on to try it, but let her do it to herself. Was this mean? I don't think so. It wasn't me who poked her, it was her. :D We walked about a mile out and by the time we got home, she had it figured out. She never nipped at anyone again.

Handling cattle around our place was pretty exciting when we first got married. The previous generation's methods involved not so great facilities, and sometimes short tempers. :shock: A great combination if there ever was one. Jobs took a lot longer than they needed to. Over time, the facilities have gotten a lot better, and the current generation has discarded the temper. :D :wink: Now we can put a hundred cows through the chute in the time it used to take to work twenty. :D The old two by four trick has been used on our place too, but as we get older and wiser, it's been traded in for a bottle of Atravet. :wink: :D :D :D

Our rule for working cattle is "The more you hurry, the slower you go."
 

Faster horses

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
29,203
Reaction score
431
Location
NE WY at the foot of the Big Horn mountains
Wow, efb. IMO you nailed it!!!!

Mr. FH does a lot of work alone with cattle. His theory is to "make no dust". It works for him just fine. Maybe he is a 'cow whisperer'. :shock: But like PPRM, he's figured out how to do things without a lot of problems.
He gets a problem cow, she gets GONE!

If you have enough people, you can do about anything (good and bad). But if you are alone, you better figure out how a cow thinks, or you are out done.

I really enjoy watching him gather some yearlings by himself. His method
is different than most. He gets ahead of them and calls them. Yeah, he is horseback. Yeah, they are in a big pasture. Yeah, they are CURIOUS. He can do that a lot easier than trying to drive them someplace by himself.
And he has created 'no dust'.But this is Montana and not as rough as some areas. I'm not saying this would work every place, but it works for him.

Remember Pat Parelli says, "You can't lead a horse to water and make him drink, but you can drive him and make him thirsty." We just need to think outside the box a little bit, IMO.

One of the funny things that happened years ago, he was helping a rancher gather some cows to ship. They sorted off the calves, loaded them up and hauled them to the scale. The next day they were to gather another pasture and do the same thing. When they rode out they found the cows from the first bunch had gotten mixed with the second bunch and they were frantically looking for their calves. It was a tough deal and it didn't look like the guys were gonna get the cows corralled because of the cows running and looking for their calves. Mr. FH rode to the front and started bawling like a calf. All the cows that were missing their calves took off to follow him and the other guys brought up the cows that had calves. When they got to the corral and got the gate shut, one of the kids said to him, "Neat trick, Jack." I really think they might not have got those pairs gathered in the normal way, or if they had it would have taken a long time. Just what you don't need on shipping day.


And Kato: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
 

cowzilla

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 27, 2005
Messages
363
Reaction score
0
Location
east of kato
Kato said:
There aren't too many problem animals that you can't outhink if you just sit down and ponder for a while.

I had a filly once who would be constantly nipping and trying to chew on my arm when I led her. Slapping her on the nose wasn't going to accomplish much, because I figured it would make her headshy. After a bit of thought, I went to the shed, got a nail, and took her for a walk. I carried the nail in my hand with about a quarter inch of nail sticking out. Every time she tried to take a nip, she stuck herself with the sharp nail. I never moved my hand toward her, or egged her on to try it, but let her do it to herself. Was this mean? I don't think so. It wasn't me who poked her, it was her. :D We walked about a mile out and by the time we got home, she had it figured out. She never nipped at anyone again.

Handling cattle around our place was pretty exciting when we first got married. The previous generation's methods involved not so great facilities, and sometimes short tempers. :shock: A great combination if there ever was one. Jobs took a lot longer than they needed to. Over time, the facilities have gotten a lot better, and the current generation has discarded the temper. :D :wink: Now we can put a hundred cows through the chute in the time it used to take to work twenty. :D The old two by four trick has been used on our place too, but as we get older and wiser, it's been traded in for a bottle of Atravet. :wink: :D :D :D

Our rule for working cattle is "The more you hurry, the slower you go."
SOOOOO we just gotta be a little smarter than the animals we are working with :roll: Like Axel Rose said we need a little PATIENCE :lol: :lol:
 

cowzilla

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 27, 2005
Messages
363
Reaction score
0
Location
east of kato
I might need some of that stuff too after today :( My new neighbors char bull got into my pasture of open yearling heifers. My guess is there not ALL OPEN anymore :eek: :eek:
 

Latest posts

Top