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This is shameful

fff

Well-known member
Maybe we can agree on something.

The US Defense Department knew years before insurgent actions began in Iraq of the threat posed by roadside bombs but failed to take available steps to mitigate the risk to US troops, a Pentagon audit concluded Tuesday.

The US Marine Corps asked the Pentagon's inspector general to perform the audit after coming under fire for setting aside an urgent request from field commanders in 2005 for Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) armored vehicles.

"DoD (Department of Defense) was aware of the threat posed by mines and improvised explosive devices (IEDs) in low-intensity conflicts and of the availability of mine-resistant vehicles years before insurgent actions began in Iraq in 2003," the audit found.

More at the link: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081209/wl_mideast_afp/usmilitaryiraqmrap_081209180156;_ylt=AlMVCkQTQVQeehjU3QbS3xgZO7gF
 

jigs

Well-known member
is that worse than Clinton gutting our military, and never chasing down those who attacked us repeatedly over the 8 years he was humping interns in the oral office??
 

fff

Well-known member
jigs said:
is that worse than Clinton gutting our military, and never chasing down those who attacked us repeatedly over the 8 years he was humping interns in the oral office??

Sending our troops into an unnecessary war in Iraq as Bush did is shameful. The Marine Corp refusing to get the equipment they needed to be as safe as they could be in a war is beyond that.

Your comments are, as usual, stupid and pointless.
 

TexasBred

Well-known member
Bill Clinton gutted our military to reap the “Peace Dividend.” He rode the Peace Dividend coat tail for eight years, claiming his policies “righted” our economy as America became militarily weaker and weaker. The 2d and 3d Armored Divisions were eliminated. Barry McCaffrey’s 24th Mechanized Infantry Division has been reduced to a training Division along with the poorly-equipped 2d Armored Cavalry Regiment. All of these units played a significant role in the liberation of Kuwait and are sorely missed today.

Not only did the Clinton Administration gut our ground forces, worse yet, they infected the Pentagon with a dangerous military policy that to some extent still persists. American generals were “Clintonized.” Officers that came up through the ranks in the 90s became convinced that America could fight antiseptic, high-tech wars from the sky, suffering few if any American casualties. Clinton ordered several air attacks on Iraq as punishment for repeated UN resolution violations, never having any effect on Saddam Hussein and his regime. Again, President Clinton made a futile attempt to kill Usama bin Ladin by hurling a hundred cruise missiles at his hideouts in Afghanistan. And finally, Clinton’s worst example of military leadership was the shameful retreat from Somalia. The Clinton Administration drew down the force in Somalia to the point that it could barely protect itself, refused requests for armored vehicles and Apache helicopters, and ordered lightly-armed Army Rangers to attack directly into a hornets nest without the proper backup. To the Rangers’ credit, they accomplished their mission successfully while suffering many casualties. What did the Clinton Administration do? They pulled all Americans out of Somalia and released the captured warlords, turning victory into defeat.
 

alice

Well-known member
fff said:
Maybe we can agree on something.

The US Defense Department knew years before insurgent actions began in Iraq of the threat posed by roadside bombs but failed to take available steps to mitigate the risk to US troops, a Pentagon audit concluded Tuesday.

The US Marine Corps asked the Pentagon's inspector general to perform the audit after coming under fire for setting aside an urgent request from field commanders in 2005 for Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) armored vehicles.

"DoD (Department of Defense) was aware of the threat posed by mines and improvised explosive devices (IEDs) in low-intensity conflicts and of the availability of mine-resistant vehicles years before insurgent actions began in Iraq in 2003," the audit found.

More at the link: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081209/wl_mideast_afp/usmilitaryiraqmrap_081209180156;_ylt=AlMVCkQTQVQeehjU3QbS3xgZO
7gF

Yes, it is absolutely shameful. :mad: People can preach till the cows come home and blame it all on Clinton, or try to sidetrack the shamefulness of it by carrying on about Bill Clinton, but the simple matter of the fact is that GW and Cheney and their cohorts sent troops into harm's way ill equiped and poorly trained, and KNEW it when they did it! Arrogant, cavalier b'tards! :mad:

Alice
 

jigs

Well-known member
I read once that the amount of military forces that Clinton got rid of would amount to the 3rd largest force in the world.

we were hit a dozen times and Clinton vowed to punish them....he was too busy "smoking" cigars to defend te country

if Washington stayed out of the war, it would be mopped up and over by now. the press is not helping things either.

America has lost the gut fire to defend freedom through the world....I fear this will allow us to be overtaken in the future.....America's spirit is near death, and the liberals are the ones holding the pillow over her face.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
jigs said:
I read once that the amount of military forces that Clinton got rid of would amount to the 3rd largest force in the world.

we were hit a dozen times and Clinton vowed to punish them....he was too busy "smoking" cigars to defend te country

if Washington stayed out of the war, it would be mopped up and over by now. the press is not helping things either.

America has lost the gut fire to defend freedom through the world....I fear this will allow us to be overtaken in the future.....America's spirit is near death, and the liberals are the ones holding the pillow over her face.

But the country wasn't bankrupt then-with a $12 TRILLION debt, our kids and grandkids will never be able to repay-- nor had we lost over 4,000 lives in a war that lost us total credibility around the world....

I'd take the Clinton days-- his cigar- and however many girlfriends he wanted over what GW has left us with.... :roll:
 

alice

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
jigs said:
I read once that the amount of military forces that Clinton got rid of would amount to the 3rd largest force in the world.

we were hit a dozen times and Clinton vowed to punish them....he was too busy "smoking" cigars to defend te country

if Washington stayed out of the war, it would be mopped up and over by now. the press is not helping things either.

America has lost the gut fire to defend freedom through the world....I fear this will allow us to be overtaken in the future.....America's spirit is near death, and the liberals are the ones holding the pillow over her face.

But the country wasn't bankrupt then-with a $12 TRILLION debt, our kids and grandkids will never be able to repay-- nor had we lost over 4,000 lives in a war that lost us total credibility around the world....

I'd take the Clinton days-- his cigar- and however many girlfriends he wanted over what GW has left us with.... :roll:

Oh heck yeah!

Alice
 

Richard Doolittle

Well-known member
alice said:
fff said:
Maybe we can agree on something.

The US Defense Department knew years before insurgent actions began in Iraq of the threat posed by roadside bombs but failed to take available steps to mitigate the risk to US troops, a Pentagon audit concluded Tuesday.

The US Marine Corps asked the Pentagon's inspector general to perform the audit after coming under fire for setting aside an urgent request from field commanders in 2005 for Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) armored vehicles.

"DoD (Department of Defense) was aware of the threat posed by mines and improvised explosive devices (IEDs) in low-intensity conflicts and of the availability of mine-resistant vehicles years before insurgent actions began in Iraq in 2003," the audit found.

More at the link: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081209/wl_mideast_afp/usmilitaryiraqmrap_081209180156;_ylt=AlMVCkQTQVQeehjU3QbS3xgZO
7gF

Yes, it is absolutely shameful. :mad: People can preach till the cows come home and blame it all on Clinton, or try to sidetrack the shamefulness of it by carrying on about Bill Clinton, but the simple matter of the fact is that GW and Cheney and their cohorts sent troops into harm's way ill equiped and poorly trained, and KNEW it when they did it! Arrogant, cavalier b'tards! :mad:

Alice

Please do not insult our men and women in uniform (living and dead) by calling them poorly trained. You obviously don't know many soldiers. They serve by choice and regardless of what hand they are dealt by politics, they take their job and their training seriously.
 

alice

Well-known member
Richard Doolittle said:
alice said:
fff said:
Maybe we can agree on something.



More at the link: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081209/wl_mideast_afp/usmilitaryiraqmrap_081209180156;_ylt=AlMVCkQTQVQeehjU3QbS3xgZO
7gF

Yes, it is absolutely shameful. :mad: People can preach till the cows come home and blame it all on Clinton, or try to sidetrack the shamefulness of it by carrying on about Bill Clinton, but the simple matter of the fact is that GW and Cheney and their cohorts sent troops into harm's way ill equiped and poorly trained, and KNEW it when they did it! Arrogant, cavalier b'tards! :mad:

Alice

Please do not insult our men and women in uniform (living and dead) by calling them poorly trained. You obviously haven't don't know many soldiers. They serve by choice and regardless of what hand they are dealt by politics, they take their job and their training seriously.

What training they got they took seriously and trusted...and it failed them! The fact is they got poor, poor, training and sorry equipment! Lambs sent to slaughter...and simply considered collateral damage. Shameful... :mad: Where do I get this? From returning soldiers...from grieving parents, husbands, wives, sisters, brothers, children...

Alice
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
alice said:
Richard Doolittle said:
alice said:
Yes, it is absolutely shameful. :mad: People can preach till the cows come home and blame it all on Clinton, or try to sidetrack the shamefulness of it by carrying on about Bill Clinton, but the simple matter of the fact is that GW and Cheney and their cohorts sent troops into harm's way ill equiped and poorly trained, and KNEW it when they did it! Arrogant, cavalier b'tards! :mad:

Alice

Please do not insult our men and women in uniform (living and dead) by calling them poorly trained. You obviously haven't don't know many soldiers. They serve by choice and regardless of what hand they are dealt by politics, they take their job and their training seriously.

What training they got they took seriously and trusted...and it failed them! The fact is they got poor, poor, training and sorry equipment! Lambs sent to slaughter...and simply considered collateral damage. Shameful... :mad: Where do I get this? From returning soldiers...from grieving parents, husbands, wives, sisters, brothers, children...

Alice

And sadly from an Administration/Political Party that fought the bill to give these soldiers the best GI Bill to repay them for their services and take care of their injuries-- while sending $ Billions to Iraq monthly to pay appeasement damage costs and appeasement money to any Mullah with his hand out ... :roll: :( :mad:
 

VanC

Well-known member
alice said:
Richard Doolittle said:
alice said:
Yes, it is absolutely shameful. :mad: People can preach till the cows come home and blame it all on Clinton, or try to sidetrack the shamefulness of it by carrying on about Bill Clinton, but the simple matter of the fact is that GW and Cheney and their cohorts sent troops into harm's way ill equiped and poorly trained, and KNEW it when they did it! Arrogant, cavalier b'tards! :mad:

Alice

Please do not insult our men and women in uniform (living and dead) by calling them poorly trained. You obviously haven't don't know many soldiers. They serve by choice and regardless of what hand they are dealt by politics, they take their job and their training seriously.

What training they got they took seriously and trusted...and it failed them! The fact is they got poor, poor, training and sorry equipment! Lambs sent to slaughter...and simply considered collateral damage. Shameful... :mad: Where do I get this? From returning soldiers...from grieving parents, husbands, wives, sisters, brothers, children...

Alice

Must be a regional thing. I, too, know a number of Iraq veterans, some who have volunteered to go back. I can't think of one that doesn't believe what they've done and continue to do is right. Every one of them has said they were treated as heroes by the majority of Iraqis, which seems to be in direct conflict to what we are pounded with by the media. Every one of them believes they are, or were, members of the finest fighting force the world has ever seen. Not one of them mentioned anything about poor training or equipment. A couple of the older ones who've been in the service for a number of years have said that the morale is much better now than it was ten years ago.
I also am close to a couple of families that have lost someone over there. Their grief is immense, but it's tempered with pride. No bitterness or finger pointing that I can see, and if it were there, I'd see it.
 

backhoeboogie

Well-known member
VanC said:
alice said:
Richard Doolittle said:
Please do not insult our men and women in uniform (living and dead) by calling them poorly trained. You obviously haven't don't know many soldiers. They serve by choice and regardless of what hand they are dealt by politics, they take their job and their training seriously.

What training they got they took seriously and trusted...and it failed them! The fact is they got poor, poor, training and sorry equipment! Lambs sent to slaughter...and simply considered collateral damage. Shameful... :mad: Where do I get this? From returning soldiers...from grieving parents, husbands, wives, sisters, brothers, children...

Alice

Must be a regional thing. I, too, know a number of Iraq veterans, some who have volunteered to go back. I can't think of one that doesn't believe what they've done and continue to do is right. Every one of them has said they were treated as heroes by the majority of Iraqis, which seems to be in direct conflict to what we are pounded with by the media. Every one of them believes they are, or were, members of the finest fighting force the world has ever seen. Not one of them mentioned anything about poor training or equipment. A couple of the older ones who've been in the service for a number of years have said that the morale is much better now than it was ten years ago.
I also am close to a couple of families that have lost someone over there. Their grief is immense, but it's tempered with pride. No bitterness or finger pointing that I can see, and if it were there, I'd see it.

I disagree with the regional thing. (I live pretty close to Alice)

We lost one locally. He was celebrated as a hero. It was a very good thing no protestors were there.
 

Richard Doolittle

Well-known member
Gee Backhoe, you must have lost more than one locally if you live pretty close to Alice. Her statement implies that her opinion was formed by contact with many grieving families. :???:
 

hopalong

Well-known member
Richard Doolittle said:
Gee Backhoe, you must have lost more than one locally if you live pretty close to Alice. Her statement implies that her opinion was formed by contact with many grieving families. :???:

Well we all know how she likes to streeeeaach the truth, kinda remeinds me of a gal from Ga. :D :D :D
 

backhoeboogie

Well-known member
The one service I am specifically referring to was in Glen Rose. I personally know many of the family and they are all great folks.

Last night the news announced we lost another one from Weatherford. I do no personally know anyone in the family, based on the name given. I may know relatives if this is an old family from this region.

I don't have any beef with Alice and I have not kept tabs on numbers or anything like that. She may be much more informed than I am.

My only point is I know many in this region who support our troops. We support families with troops deployed. I have attended services where the turn out was overwhelming - and emotional.

Law Enforcement alerts were indeed issued - in case of protest. If any protestor would have shown up, it would have gotten really ugly. Many of us in this region support the efforts. My county went overwhelmingly Republican and the state of Texas went to McCain.
 

alice

Well-known member
Of course the soldiers should be celebrated as heroes! That is not the point! The point is the Bush Administration put them in harm's way with equipment that was not up for the kind of war that they would be fighting. Anybody remember the body armor fiasco? I flew two different flights transporting bodies of soldiers because of the lousy body armor. I've sat in airports waiting for flights or waiting to pick family or friends arriving and while I was waiting I would have conversations with families of soldiers waiting for their return...one of those families was waiting for a son that had been injured because he did not have the proper body armor.

The jeeps...the transports were not was was called for when in came to withstanding the roadside IEDs. Talked to the uncle of one of those soldiers that was hurt badly because of that.

I could go on, but I won't.

Again, this has nothing to do with the brave soldiers and their commitment to their jobs and everything to do with being giving garbage to do their jobs with.

Alice
 

jigs

Well-known member
all valid points, but you think that Clinton basically ending military funding had nothing to do with the preparedness of the military???

he is the root of the whole deal. cut spending, failed to strike back after the dozen times we were hit, and that basicaly told the muslims that we were weak, and gave them the confidence to hit us on 911.....Bush went in to END the grip they had.....as long as we continue to play cowboys and muslims, all will be fine in the end. but we have another hippie peace lover coming into the White House, and we will again back down and be pushed around......
 

backhoeboogie

Well-known member
jigs said:
Clinton basically ending military funding had nothing to do with the preparedness of the military???......

Very much so.

What has to be considered is the minds we are dealing with. Suicide bombers in jets cannot be defended from any vehicle. If the planted explosives had no effect in the roadside bombs, they would simply resort to a different tactic that was effective. Things would just keep escalating.

These are desperate minds we are dealing with who will do anything including strapping explosives to their bodies and blowing themselves up.

There is no limitation and no rules of engagement on their part.
 
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